CIC should revise this express entry system

[itainttrue]

I think the fundamental issue with the argument that, for want of a better expression, begrudges LMIA holders the additional 600 points is that EE applies to economic immigration programs that apply to highly skilled people. Generally speaking the temporary foreign workers who are taking the (LMIA) jobs no Canadian wants cannot qualify for FSW etc. Those workers usually have to go through PNP schemes which are pretty difficult and have long wait times etc.

PGWPs being work permits could get you any jobs including the so called "crappy" ones that one Canadian wants. And according to my understanding the feeling is that people with those jobs should not get PR. Using a job to determine someone's qualifications is not always accurate. Many skilled people come to Canada through FSW and then find themselves unable to get jobs in their fields. They end up having to take less than ideal jobs so they and their families can survive. CIC is trying to avoid this.

As I keep saying, there's space enough for everyone.

If there's space enough for everyone, why is it so hard for you to admit that PGWP holders who are in NOC 0/A are not getting the credit that they deserve?
I agree that using a job to determine someone's qualification is not always accurate, but since CIC is not giving enough credits to people who had Canadian education and Canadian work experience and over-crediting those who received LMO/LMIA, what else can you use?

If they are so concerned about people who come to Canada under FSW and end up taking less than ideal jobs because they can't find one, doesn't it then show that people like me, most PGWP holders, who have already proven to be capable of competing, retaining, and securing their position are more ideal candidates for PR?

Just like you said, there's enough space for everyone. So why can't people like me get the credits that I deserve, fairly?
Is it wrong to feel mad when I finally realize that all I have worked for until this day has been for nothing and that everything I've been told by the government of Canada and CIC in the past has been a lie?

 

[ButterflyChemist]

If there's space enough for everyone, why is it so hard for you to admit that PGWP holders who are in NOC 0/A are not getting the credit that they deserve?
I agree that using a job to determine someone's qualification is not always accurate, but since CIC is not giving enough credits to people who had Canadian education and Canadian work experience and over-crediting those who received LMO/LMIA, what else can you use?

If they are so concerned about people who come to Canada under FSW and end up taking less than ideal jobs because they can't find one, doesn't it then show that people like me, most PGWP holders, who have already proven to be capable of competing, retaining, and securing their position are more ideal candidates for PR?

Just like you said, there's enough space for everyone. So why can't people like me get the credits that I deserve, fairly?
Is it wrong to feel mad when I finally realize that all I have worked for until this day has been for nothing and that everything I've been told by the government of Canada and CIC in the past has been a lie?

My personal opinion on the matter is that PGWP holders already have it easier than everyone else. As you have said many times it is not easy to get a LMIA and CEC category is a lot less restrictive in terms of the documents required. There is your benefit. I don't happen to think you are being unfairly treated. How I see it is that everyone has the same opportunity to get the first 600 points. The bonus points is to ensure that PNP and LMIA holders get their PR first. Under the old system, PNP nominees always had a quicker route to PR, likewise people who had arranged employment. This is no different and no one was screaming bloody murder then. EE hasn't disqualified you or denied you a birthright.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me. This is my opinion and you are likewise entitled to have your own.

 

[ButterflyChemist]

Just like you said, there's enough space for everyone. So why can't people like me get the credits that I deserve, fairly?
Is it wrong to feel mad when I finally realize that all I have worked for until this day has been for nothing and that everything I've been told by the government of Canada and CIC in the past has been a lie?



Immigration rules are always subject to change and CIC can modify programs as they see fit. That's not lying. It is their right to do so. PR is a privilege not a right.

 

[itainttrue]

My personal opinion on the matter is that PGWP holders already have it easier than everyone else. As you have said many times it is not easy to get a LMIA and CEC category is a lot less restrictive in terms of the documents required. There is your benefit. I don't happen to think you are being unfairly treated. How I see it is that everyone has the same opportunity to get the first 600 points. The bonus points is to ensure that PNP and LMIA holders get their PR first. Under the old system, PNP nominees always had a quicker route to PR, likewise people who had arranged employment. This is no different and no one was screaming bloody murder then. EE hasn't disqualified you or denied you a birthright.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me. This is my opinion and you are likewise entitled to have your own.

you still don't get it, do you?
It is not easy for us to get LMIA, not because our jobs are not "VALID", but because LMIA is meant for certain positions in certain companies.
PGWP holders have it easier? you are kidding, right?
PGWP holders, in order to be able to qualify under CEC, have to compete for skilled positions with Canadians/PR, whereas a lot of LMIA-based jobs look for people who can fill positions that Canadians can't or don't want to.
PGWP holders in general have to go through much harder time in order to compete and secure their positions.
PGWP is an open work permit but NONE of the holders work for just any job, they mostly work for regular Canadian companies, unlike most of LMIA holders do.

is it so hard to understand that even if you worked at Google, you can't get LMIA but if you worked at, say, an international agency as a administrative assistant, you have a MUCH higher chance to get LMIA. does it mean that securing a position at Google is easier? Hell no.
LMIA isn't meant for regular companies and that is exactly the reason why most high-skilled PGWP holders are being treated unfairly under this new system.

 

[itainttrue]

Just like you said, there's enough space for everyone. So why can't people like me get the credits that I deserve, fairly?
Is it wrong to feel mad when I finally realize that all I have worked for until this day has been for nothing and that everything I've been told by the government of Canada and CIC in the past has been a lie?



Immigration rules are always subject to change and CIC can modify programs as they see fit. That's not lying. It is their right to do so. PR is a privilege not a right.

do you even know what the government of Canada is doing?
they have been and still are advertising how great their education system is and how they are welcoming people(with Canadian education and Canadian experience) that are most likely to succeed in Canadian society.
But are they giving fair treatment to such people now? NO.
How is this not a lie?

They can do whatever they want with the immigration rules but they don't have the right to lure people into the country just to snatch tuition fees out of them.
Do you even know why they are still LYING?
because they KNOW that once it's clear to the outside world that there is less hope for people who grew up here and had Canadian education, people will eventually stop coming to this country to study and spend MONEY in Canada.
After all, they are treating TFWs, especially PGWP holders who PLAYED BY THEIR RULE, as job-stealers.

you tell me, how is this not a lie?

 

[ButterflyChemist]

do you even know what the government of Canada is doing?
they have been and still are advertising how great their education system is and how they are welcoming people(with Canadian education and Canadian experience) that are most likely to succeed in Canadian society.
But are they giving fair treatment to such people now? NO.
How is this not a lie?

They can do whatever they want with the immigration rules but they don't have the right to lure people into the country just to snatch tuition fees out of them.
Do you even know why they are still LYING?
because they KNOW that once it's clear to the outside world that there is less hope for people who grew up here and had Canadian education, people will eventually stop coming to this country to study and spend MONEY in Canada.
After all, they are treating TFWs, especially PGWP holders who PLAYED BY THEIR RULE, as job-stealers.

you tell me, how is this not a lie?

As far as I can see and I am in the outside world, Canada is very particular about handing out study permits. The government isn't luring anyone and no one is forcing or tricking anyone into coming to study in Canada. If they just wanted the money, the wouldn't reject so many study visa applications. Additionally CIC isn't out there handing out college acceptance letters

I have said repeatedly that you do understand the LMIA process. Why should it matter where you've worked if Canadians are available to do the job. It is the job of every government to safeguard its citizens first. I don't care if someone worked at Google. That in and of itself doesn't make them more qualified. If you think regular companies aren't applying for LMIAs then you are misguided and if you think SC is handing out LMIAs for admin officers and receptionists then you are also mistaken.

As I said, the 600 points get job holders in sooner .....that's what the bonus is for. Not to punish PGWP holders. And whats more if you don't believe that CEC is a an easier path to PR you are letting your situation rob you of objectivity.

LMIA holders also have to compete with Canadians so please remove the thought from your mind that they don't. The jobs that no one wants would not likely be in the skill NOCs so they have no impact on EE. Like it or not, PGWP holders can potentially deny Canadians job. Were there no Canadians in your program? Why didn't they get your job? It stands to reason that there will very likely be Canadians qualified to do the job since they have access to the same training and education you got in Canada.

Anyways, what is clear to me is that you refuse to see the situation objectively because you had started to believe that Canada owed you PR for all your time there and for doing all you've been doing up to that point to qualify. You fail to realise that you are still qualified and that this system that give the bonus points in no different than the previous one that gave priority processing to PNP and persons with arranged employment. That's what the bonus is for.

Before you didn't have to compete with them but no you do. And like it or not, it is what it is, until it becomes something else.

 

[crystloud]

As far as I can see and I am in the outside world, Canada is very particular about handing out study permits. The government isn't luring anyone and no one is forcing or tricking anyone into coming to study in Canada. If they just wanted the money, the wouldn't reject so many study visa applications. Additionally CIC isn't out there handing out college acceptance letters

I have said repeatedly that you do understand the LMIA process. Why should it matter where you've worked if Canadians are available to do the job. It is the job of every government to safeguard its citizens first. I don't care if someone worked at Google. That in and of itself doesn't make them more qualified. If you think regular companies aren't applying for LMIAs then you are misguided and if you think SC is handing out LMIAs for admin officers and receptionists then you are also mistaken.

As I said, the 600 points get job holders in sooner .....that's what the bonus is for. Not to punish PGWP holders. And whats more if you don't believe that CEC is a an easier path to PR you are letting your situation rob you of objectivity.

LMIA holders also have to compete with Canadians so please remove the thought from your mind that they don't. The jobs that no one wants would not likely be in the skill NOCs so they have no impact on EE. Like it or not, PGWP holders can potentially deny Canadians job. Were there no Canadians in your program? Why didn't they get your job? It stands to reason that there will very likely be Canadians qualified to do the job since they have access to the same training and education you got in Canada.

Anyways, what is clear to me is that you refuse to see the situation objectively because you had started to believe that Canada owed you PR for all your time there and for doing all you've been doing up to that point to qualify. You fail to realise that you are still qualified and that this system that give the bonus points in no different than the previous one that gave priority processing to PNP and persons with arranged employment. That's what the bonus is for.

Before you didn't have to compete with them but no you do. And like it or not, it is what it is, until it becomes something else.

One major reason for CIC rejecting issuing study permit is because applicant's funds, assets---MONEY matter

We need the transparency from CIC that how many got ITA under CEC category to prove " CEC is a an easier path to PR."

itainttrue, I totally understand your feeling and what you said about the LIE. If CIC bears a so-called "pass score" in mind, they should clarify like Australia & New Zealand. So people won't have a false hope like a fool.

 

[itainttrue]

As far as I can see and I am in the outside world, Canada is very particular about handing out study permits. The government isn't luring anyone and no one is forcing or tricking anyone into coming to study in Canada. If they just wanted the money, the wouldn't reject so many study visa applications. Additionally CIC isn't out there handing out college acceptance letters

I have said repeatedly that you do understand the LMIA process. Why should it matter where you've worked if Canadians are available to do the job. It is the job of every government to safeguard its citizens first. I don't care if someone worked at Google. That in and of itself doesn't make them more qualified. If you think regular companies aren't applying for LMIAs then you are misguided and if you think SC is handing out LMIAs for admin officers and receptionists then you are also mistaken.

As I said, the 600 points get job holders in sooner .....that's what the bonus is for. Not to punish PGWP holders. And whats more if you don't believe that CEC is a an easier path to PR you are letting your situation rob you of objectivity.

LMIA holders also have to compete with Canadians so please remove the thought from your mind that they don't. The jobs that no one wants would not likely be in the skill NOCs so they have no impact on EE. Like it or not, PGWP holders can potentially deny Canadians job. Were there no Canadians in your program? Why didn't they get your job? It stands to reason that there will very likely be Canadians qualified to do the job since they have access to the same training and education you got in Canada.

Anyways, what is clear to me is that you refuse to see the situation objectively because you had started to believe that Canada owed you PR for all your time there and for doing all you've been doing up to that point to qualify. You fail to realise that you are still qualified and that this system that give the bonus points in no different than the previous one that gave priority processing to PNP and persons with arranged employment. That's what the bonus is for.

Before you didn't have to compete with them but no you do. And like it or not, it is what it is, until it becomes something else.

what is clear to me is that you have absolutely 0 idea about what this country has been advertising in the past couple of decades(and apparently still is) and 0 idea about what it has become and how it's influencing people that they have promised otherwise in the wrong way.
You said it yourself. You are in the outside world.

People like you can never understand what people who got screwed must be feeling right now.
You sound like you are the one who's viewing this objectively when in reality, you are just trying to criticize people who oppose your opinion.

If you don't know what this country has been advertising to the outside world for the last few decades, I don't think you can answer any of my questions.
Let me be clear, again, cuz I feel like I've been talking to deaf ears, I don't think Canada owes me a PR, no, it doesn't.
However, it does owe people in my situation a fair treatment in the new system at least because we have been lied to and led to believe in false hope for far longer than you can ever imagine.

 

[leights]

Well, 4 years of secondary school, 5 years of university including co-op exp, 1.5 years of canadian work exp, and 5 years in my home country in the middle of all that.
I just became eligible to apply under CEC last Nov.
10 years ago I was still in university. it's not like I waited to apply.

Hey don't mean to burst your bubble but if you become eligible in November last year you should have been putting your application in then or at least researching how EE works.. If you really wanted it you would have done it then .. I submitted my application in December for BC PNP and they asked me in early Feb if I wanted to go via EE. I agreed and got BC PNP 12 days later and then an invitation to apply on Feb 20th for P.R. I submitted a full PR application via EE April 2nd and just got it passed yesterday. If your that close to the end of the year ( being eligible last November ) then you should have got onto it then or at least had all the documents ready to go. Either way wish you luck with it.

 

[itainttrue]

Hey don't mean to burst your bubble but if you become eligible in November last year you should have been putting your application in then or at least researching how EE works.. If you really wanted it you would have done it then .. I submitted my application in December for BC PNP and they asked me in early Feb if I wanted to go via EE. I agreed and got BC PNP 12 days later and then an invitation to apply on Feb 20th for P.R. I submitted a full PR application via EE April 2nd and just got it passed yesterday. If your that close to the end of the year ( being eligible last November ) then you should have got onto it then or at least had all the documents ready to go. Either way wish you luck with it.

that's exactly what I did, apply under CEC as soon as I became eligible under the old system back in November last year.
CIC clearly stated on their website at the time of my application that they only received 5000/8000 applications towards the cap, but returned my application in Feb this year saying the cap was already reached back in October last year.
it was such a BS.
and that's exactly why I ended up in this mess.

 

[The_Distant_One]

you still don't get it, do you?
It is not easy for us to get LMIA, not because our jobs are not "VALID", but because LMIA is meant for certain positions in certain companies.
PGWP holders have it easier? you are kidding, right?
PGWP holders, in order to be able to qualify under CEC, have to compete for skilled positions with Canadians/PR, whereas a lot of LMIA-based jobs look for people who can fill positions that Canadians can't or don't want to.
PGWP holders in general have to go through much harder time in order to compete and secure their positions.
PGWP is an open work permit but NONE of the holders work for just any job, they mostly work for regular Canadian companies, unlike most of LMIA holders do.

is it so hard to understand that even if you worked at Google, you can't get LMIA but if you worked at, say, an international agency as a administrative assistant, you have a MUCH higher chance to get LMIA. does it mean that securing a position at Google is easier? Hell no.
LMIA isn't meant for regular companies and that is exactly the reason why most high-skilled PGWP holders are being treated unfairly under this new system.

You keep talking about these international agencies like receptionists are getting LMIA's, which is just not true. If you have looked at the LMIA process (which I have studied extensively) you will know that its not that simple.

And PGWP holders do get favoritism for the sole fact that they get the opportunity to gain 3 years experience which allows for a greater points score over those (like myself) who dont have the ability to get to any points because my Visa is only for 1 year and therefore I get 0 points. If I had 1 years experience I would have my ITA by now.

And you keep going on about what the canadian government is advertising, I'm thinking that you mistaking this actually for insitituions which are always notorious for bending the truth. If students dont do proper due diligence before the come then thats not really the governments fault.

 

[itainttrue]

You keep talking about these international agencies like receptionists are getting LMIA's, which is just not true. If you have looked at the LMIA process (which I have studied extensively) you will know that its not that simple.

And PGWP holders do get favoritism for the sole fact that they get the opportunity to gain 3 years experience which allows for a greater points score over those (like myself) who dont have the ability to get to any points because my Visa is only for 1 year and therefore I get 0 points. If I had 1 years experience I would have my ITA by now.

And you keep going on about what the canadian government is advertising, I'm thinking that you mistaking this actually for insitituions which are always notorious for bending the truth. If students dont do proper due diligence before the come then thats not really the governments fault.

you are the one who's not getting it.
International agencies were just an example but do you even know how easy it is to fake occupation in small companies like that? Administrative assistant, manager, they can come up with whatever job title they want to and no one would notice.
This is exactly how a lot of people got PR through LMOs in the past and even though the success rate went down, still is the case for some LMIA holders.
I don't think you studied LMIA process enough.
you might know a lot about how "it should be", but have no idea how some people are taking advantage of it.

and did you say "If students dont do proper due diligence before the come then thats not really the governments fault"?
how is it different from saying it's the victim of a fraud's fault for not taking a caution?
A lot of international students, including myself, are the victims here, but it's easy for you to say whatever cuz you clearly aren't one.
and you clearly have no idea about whay Canada is advertising(and has been) to the outside world.
They are still doing it cuz they know that there is no way they can subsidize the Education on their own.

You seem mad because you are on a one year visa and you don't want people like me to get any special treatment over you.
Even though I personally think PGWP holders who have spent so much more time getting Canadian Education and getting Canadian experience deserve a better treatment than you(Canada said they wanted people like us in the past especially when I was growing up here), that is not what I'm asking.
The table has turned and we are treated as job-stealers. Big deal. I don't care.
All I'm asking is not a special treatment, but a fair treatment in the system.

I seriously doubt that you will say the same things you have if you are the one who came to Canada with hope 16 years ago and played by Canada's rule for god-knows-how-long only to get screwed by the recent system change.

It's funny how people like you have a lot to say back to me when none of you bothered to reply to Clever.Thinker's comments.
He has put all the points together I'm trying to make so neatly and deep down you probably know he's right.

 

[The_Distant_One]

all three of you points ignore the fact immigration systems are to fill skill gaps. Its not about who has more education or more work experience. LMIA's are to fill identified skilled gaps and are not easy to come across.

and specifically question 2 just cause you call every other degree generic doesnt make that they truth. Degrees mean very little today to be honest... my wife holds no formal education and probably earns double what most of these forum members... should she get more points because she has worked and acquired a unique set of skills?

 

[ButterflyChemist]

This thread is exceptionally tiresome. The bonus 600 points ensures that LMIA holders and PNP nominees get into Canada in as short a time as possible. It is similar to the priority processing that these people got under the old system.

There will always be those who try to abuse any system but there's no use dwelling on that when so much conscious effort has been put into place to correct the flaws. Fact is, those on here complaining wouldn't be if they and already received an ITA. The fact that they haven't says it all.

 

[itainttrue]

This thread is exceptionally tiresome. The bonus 600 points ensures that LMIA holders and PNP nominees get into Canada in as short a time as possible. It is similar to the priority processing that these people got under the old system.

There will always be those who try to abuse any system but there's no use dwelling on that when so much conscious effort has been put into place to correct the flaws. Fact is, those on here complaining wouldn't be if they and already received an ITA. The fact that they haven't says it all.

you are sadly mistaken. please don't make any false assumptions about others.
Even if I, or any other people in my situation, received ITA already, I would still question the fairness of this system for over-crediting those people, and the Canadian government not living up to what it has been advertising in the past couple of decades.

Let me make an assumption about you, then. You seem like you have nothing better to do other than to sit here and criticize people. I don't think you'll be here criticizing people in my situation if you went through the same crap we did.
The fact that you clearly aren't in my situation says it all.