CIC should revise this express entry system

[erguan]

Thank you. you nailed the point that I was trying to make to those people(I failed because I have expressed my frustration and anger towards this new system in an extreme way)

just like you said, this new system is discrediting the PGWP holders under CEC category and over-crediting the likes of LMO/LMIA holders when a lot of us know that LMO/LMIA system is broken and can be exploited.

under this new system, PGWP-based jobs are not even considered as "VALID" jobs as CIC and a lot of these people put it, which is non-sense to me because these people fail to see that PGWP-based jobs generally require much higher skills and language fluency in English.

Itainttrue, you said it is hard for your employer to get you LMIA due to proof of no qualified local candidate, will it not apply to others? If this is really hard, then I think EE is doing a good job to give priority to employer driven cases.

You can't say your employer did all they can. LMIA is hard but it is not a restriction to your employer only?

I believe you will get ITA finally, LMIA candidate is less and less.

 

[mf4361]

Itainttrue, you said it is hard for your employer to get you LMIA due to proof of no qualified local candidate, will it not apply to others?

What that means is there are some people who genuinely deserve an LMIA, but don't get it because employer is unhelpful. There can be millions of reasons an employer don't want to get into this and not all of them are for the benefit of Canadian domestic job market.

 

[itainttrue]

Itainttrue, you said it is hard for your employer to get you LMIA due to proof of no qualified local candidate, will it not apply to others? If this is really hard, then I think EE is doing a good job to give priority to employer driven cases.

You can't say your employer did all they can. LMIA is hard but it is not a restriction to your employer only?

I believe you will get ITA finally, LMIA candidate is less and less.

Thank you, I believe people in my score range will get it soon too.

But let me correct one thing that you mentioned.
The same level of difficulty does not apply to different employers when it comes to sponsoring LMIA.

Let me give you an example,
It is almost impossible for person 'A' working at a regular Canadian IT company to get LMIA no matter how much the company wants to support 'A' because LMIA requires a proof and valid reasoning behind why the company can't hire a suitable local people instead.
However, it is so much easier for person 'B' working at an international agency to get LMIA because the company such as that has and can come up with PLENTY of reasons(ex. in need of someone who can speak the local language of the clients) to sponsor LMIA.
Do you see the unfairness now?
Person 'A' probably is more highly skilled in this case and had much more competition(with local Canadians) when getting the position but person 'B' can obtain LMIA so much more easily.

by enforcing people to obtain LMIA, CIC is treating(or not giving enough credit to) a huge sector of people unfairly who are probably more skillful and more likely to be successful in Canadian society.

 

[The_Distant_One]

Thank you, I believe people in my score range will get it soon too.

But let me correct one thing that you mentioned.
The same level of difficulty does not apply to different employers when it comes to sponsoring LMIA.

Let me give you an example,
It is almost impossible for person 'A' working at a regular Canadian IT company to get LMIA no matter how much the company wants to support 'A' because LMIA requires a proof and valid reasoning behind why the company can't hire a suitable local people instead.
However, it is so much easier for person 'B' working at an international agency to get LMIA because the company such as that has and can come up with PLENTY of reasons(ex. in need of someone who can speak the local language of the clients) to sponsor LMIA.
Do you see the unfairness now?
Person 'A' probably is more highly skilled in this case and had much more competition(with local Canadians) when getting the position but person 'B' can obtain LMIA so much more easily.

by enforcing people to obtain LMIA, CIC is treating(or not giving enough credit to) a huge sector of people unfairly who are probably more skillful and more likely to be successful in Canadian society.

its not about who is more highly skilled its about the skill gaps currently in the market. If a company gets an LMIA because someone can speak another language that means they are highly skilled... just cause you think that your university degree makes you more skilled doesnt make it true. Their company has proven (and CIC do not take this lightly) that they skill the LMIA holder has (speaking another language) is paramount to the job and there are no willing canadians to do the job.

You on the other hand competed against canadians which is fine but your work permit was issued so therefore that was a barrier that the company didnt have to over-come. If you didnt have a work permit then a canadian (or someone legally entitled to work in canada) would have got the job. This is proven by your company not wanting to apply for a LMIA, most likely because they know it would be rejected.

I am here on a 1 year visa, I too beat out alot of canadians for a job and my company values me highly but once again they have to admit that if i didnt apply they would have hired someone else... most likely a canadian.

This is what CIC wants. LMIA's are only for skill gaps.... not highly educated people.

You also have to consider that this is also politically motivated. Last year the TFW blew up and Canadians demanded change. The conservative government made changes so that this year, in an election year, they can rightly say "we have made it so only people who can fill gaps in our economy can enter". If I was a citizen of canada I would be applauding the change just like when it happened in New Zealand.

 

[itainttrue]

its not about who is more highly skilled its about the skill gaps currently in the market. If a company gets an LMIA because someone can speak another language that means they are highly skilled... just cause you think that your university degree makes you more skilled doesnt make it true. Their company has proven (and CIC do not take this lightly) that they skill the LMIA holder has (speaking another language) is paramount to the job and there are no willing canadians to do the job.

You on the other hand competed against canadians which is fine but your work permit was issued so therefore that was a barrier that the company didnt have to over-come. If you didnt have a work permit then a canadian (or someone legally entitled to work in canada) would have got the job. This is proven by your company not wanting to apply for a LMIA, most likely because they know it would be rejected.

I am here on a 1 year visa, I too beat out alot of canadians for a job and my company values me highly but once again they have to admit that if i didnt apply they would have hired someone else... most likely a canadian.

This is what CIC wants. LMIA's are only for skill gaps.... not highly educated people.

You also have to consider that this is also politically motivated. Last year the TFW blew up and Canadians demanded change. The conservative government made changes so that this year, in an election year, they can rightly say "we have made it so only people who can fill gaps in our economy can enter". If I was a citizen of canada I would be applauding the change just like when it happened in New Zealand.

Yes, I do understand the intention of the government that they are trying to fill the skill gaps.

But you, just like the Canadian government right now, is missing one important point.
It seems like either the government hasn't learned anything from the failure of the old LMO system or this is the best that they can come up with.
I don't know how familiar you are with LMO/LMIA system but there are basically 2 problems with enforcing people to get LMIA for bonus points that are WAY OVER THE LINE,

one is that this promotes crooked employers and immigration agencies to take advantage of the system, thus creating a lot of jobs that might look legit from outside but not in reality.(ex. on pay stub it says the employee is making $3000/month but behind the scene, the employee gives the employer back a huge portion of that pay. or make employees work 60 hrs/week but only say 40 hrs/week on paystub. => employee barely makes around minimum wage)

second is that a lot of these LMIA holders DO NOT hold onto their job and leave it AS SOON AS they receive the PR, because most of them only joined their companies so that they could get LMIA.
If they leave their jobs as soon as they get their PR, how is this "filling the skill gap"?

given that fact, IMO, I'd rather give priority to people who already have regular jobs in regular Canadian companies that are highly skilled because these are the people that will actually stay in their respective field and help the economy grow.

and trust me, being able to speak one's own first language isn't a "special skill".
anyone who's trying to immigrate here can speak their first language.

 

[The_Distant_One]

Yes, I do understand the intention of the government that they are trying to fill the skill gaps.

But you, just like the Canadian government right now, is missing one important point.
It seems like either the government hasn't learned anything from the failure of the old LMO system or this is the best that they can come up with.
I don't know how familiar you are with LMO/LMIA system but there are basically 2 problems with enforcing people to get LMIA for bonus points that are WAY OVER THE LINE,

one is that this promotes crooked employers and immigration agencies to take advantage of the system, thus creating a lot of jobs that might look legit from outside but not in reality.(ex. on pay stub it says the employee is making $3000/month but behind the scene, the employee gives the employer back a huge portion of that pay. or make employees work 60 hrs/week but only say 40 hrs/week on paystub. => employee barely makes around minimum wage)

second is that a lot of these LMIA holders DO NOT hold onto their job and leave it AS SOON AS they receive the PR, because most of them only joined their companies so that they could get LMIA.
If they leave their jobs as soon as they get their PR, how is this "filling the skill gap"?

given that fact, IMO, I'd rather give priority to people who already have regular jobs in regular Canadian companies that are highly skilled because these are the people that will actually stay in their respective field and help the economy grow.

and trust me, being able to speak one's own first language isn't a "special skill".
anyone who's trying to immigrate here can speak their first language.

you're assuming alot. If the problem of people leaving their LMIA jobs was as abig as you claim it to be there would be plenty of press about it. As the TFW blow up showed last year keeping immigration rorts a secret is very very hard in this day and age of technology. I also dont know if you have seen the requirements for LMIA's but its not jsut as easy as filling in some magic criteria. and if you know of specific examples of people and companies reorting the system then you are only making the problem worse by not reporting them to CIC.

And you may not think being able to speak your first language is a special skill, but it is to the employer who is hiring the employee and applying for a LMIA and of course that employer has to prove that no other canadian applicants could not have spoken that language.

Your looking at this from a purely self interested point of view, which is fine, but dont make out that CIC doesnt know what they are doing or havent thought about the exact "problems" you are claiming their to be.

If anything the issue you should has is either with
1) yourself for not being prepared properly as others have pointed out you would have an ITA by now if you had prepared
2) your employer who obviously agrees with the canadian government that if you didnt have a PGWP that they would have most likely hired a canadian.

Just like all other PGWP's that are complaining in here, you paid for an education, the canadian government then allowed you the opportunity to also get some canadian experience. They dont actually owe you PR and especially your case of being here for so long its really no one elses fault but your own.

 

[ButterflyChemist]

Yes, I do understand the intention of the government that they are trying to fill the skill gaps.

But you, just like the Canadian government right now, is missing one important point.
It seems like either the government hasn't learned anything from the failure of the old LMO system or this is the best that they can come up with.
I don't know how familiar you are with LMO/LMIA system but there are basically 2 problems with enforcing people to get LMIA for bonus points that are WAY OVER THE LINE,

one is that this promotes crooked employers and immigration agencies to take advantage of the system, thus creating a lot of jobs that might look legit from outside but not in reality.(ex. on pay stub it says the employee is making $3000/month but behind the scene, the employee gives the employer back a huge portion of that pay. or make employees work 60 hrs/week but only say 40 hrs/week on paystub. => employee barely makes around minimum wage)

second is that a lot of these LMIA holders DO NOT hold onto their job and leave it AS SOON AS they receive the PR, because most of them only joined their companies so that they could get LMIA.
If they leave their jobs as soon as they get their PR, how is this "filling the skill gap"?

given that fact, IMO, I'd rather give priority to people who already have regular jobs in regular Canadian companies that are highly skilled because these are the people that will actually stay in their respective field and help the economy grow.

and trust me, being able to speak one's own first language isn't a "special skill".
anyone who's trying to immigrate here can speak their first language.

You fail to realise that those jobs that you are talking about are more than likely low skilled LMIA jobs for TFWs. The great majority of these people would not qualify under EE because they are not eligible for any of the economic immigration programs ( CEC, FSW etc....) They would likely have to qualify for PNP and this is why majority of these people can never get PR. Most of these people who are abused by crooked employers and agents work and pay taxes and some even have children in Canada but many of them had to pack up and go on April 1. Is this fair to them?

Having a PGWP does not equate having a skilled job. It is an open work permit and so you could work for anyone doing anything which is why even with a PGWP you have to qualify for according to a specific program. And like it or not, your job was given to you at the expense of a Canadian citizen/PR. You may be skilled but for the most part IT professionals are a dime a dozen in Canada. You have no idea how you getting your job has affected a Canadian and their family because your effect on the labour market was not assessed.

LMIA holders have a job and an employer waiting, so whats the big deal if they come in first? As I've pointed out, their entry does not mean you will be excluded. They get preference. You may not agree but so it is. You came on here with an attitude of superiority. Spoke of poor language skills and crappy jobs and boasted of your salary etc and that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. You have since taken a more moderate approach which is great. The system in not perfect, but no system can
be all things to all people. It is CICs prerogative to do as they please and as many others have pointed out, its a lot more friendly than quite a few others.

 

[bud_weiser]

how is it that LMIA holders "find a way" and PGWP holders "expect a way"?
It's not like PGWP holders are avoiding to apply for LMIA when they can.

Unlike LMIA holders who either wasn't working before getting LMIA or was working for a company that can come up with plenty of reasons for LMIA, PGWP holders will most likely have to give up their current job(which requires higher qualification, more pay, etc) and look for jobs that possibly require less qualification and pay less in order to receive LMIA.
It's not as easy as it sounds to just quit the current "better" job and go for "worse" one.
none of the PGWP holders are "expecting a way".
Hell, if I didn't have my current job, I'd go for a job in a company that can come up with plenty of reasons for LMIA right away. why wouldn't any PGWP holders?

I disagree with you. First up If you want to stay then you need to take the step back and ask what are you willing to do to stay. Secondly Your statement that LMIA workers have not been working here before is not a smart statement. Many PG has transitioned from PGWP to LMIA and also NOC 0 A is not a housekeeper at some motel either. Thirdly as you are aware there are not many LMIA out there so be my guest and go find a lower job with a LMIA then you can tell me how easy it is. As I said it depends how much you want it .....ask any high noc lmia holder how many interviews emails info ext it is to get one.

Problem is and as I have stated before LMIA holder find a way they dont expect it.

 

[erguan]

Thank you, I believe people in my score range will get it soon too.

But let me correct one thing that you mentioned.
The same level of difficulty does not apply to different employers when it comes to sponsoring LMIA.

Let me give you an example,
It is almost impossible for person 'A' working at a regular Canadian IT company to get LMIA no matter how much the company wants to support 'A' because LMIA requires a proof and valid reasoning behind why the company can't hire a suitable local people instead.
However, it is so much easier for person 'B' working at an international agency to get LMIA because the company such as that has and can come up with PLENTY of reasons(ex. in need of someone who can speak the local language of the clients) to sponsor LMIA.
Do you see the unfairness now?
Person 'A' probably is more highly skilled in this case and had much more competition(with local Canadians) when getting the position but person 'B' can obtain LMIA so much more easily.

by enforcing people to obtain LMIA, CIC is treating(or not giving enough credit to) a huge sector of people unfairly who are probably more skillful and more likely to be successful in Canadian society.

What you described can be reasonable but I would say it is hard to define skilled or less skilled. This is how government is treating people fairly. On the other hand, LMIA has salary boundary which is helpful for skilled as you defined. It is true some people cheat the system, but I would say it is LMIA problem, not EE.

 

[katja2684]

I understand the OPs frustration because this system is more like a lottery unless you have a valid job offer (ie with LMIA).i remember the weeks before the ITA when I was begging my company to apply for LMIA and they wouldn't help me because of the painful LMIA process. I'm on ICT permit but it's useless when it comes to the additional 600 points. I still have to submit proof of funds and all the other FSW documents.
So yeah, I can understand the OP is running out of patience but with 448 points I think the battle isn't lost and he'll get an ITA this year.

 

[susana]

Just to clarify , Speaking another language as a requirement to obtain an lmia is not allowed by Service Canada unless is french or supported with very strong evidence .
The employer can apply for the NON fee lmia and must prove why he selected the foreign national over Canadians of PR. If you have higher qualifications than the other applicants and you were selected with a fair process among the others then your company can justify why they want to support your application with the LMIA . You seem not to understand how the LMIA process is about and for positions like yours chances are your lmia will be decided in less than a month . You must talk to your employer and find out the real reason behind not wanting to support you with the lmia as it is clear that you don't understand who it works. The requirement of a foreign language is not longer allowed by Service Canada . The lmia for you is free of charge , yes they must advertise the position and sport lots of evidence but if you are a valued asset for your employer nothing is stopping them to apply for it ,just excuses.
Maybe they are paying you lower than the median wage and they don't want to compromise themselves to pay you more . If you are as fantastic as you say you are , it will be easy for your employer to provide evidence for wanting to hire you in a permanent position and not a Canadian or a PR . Not all the lmia are for crappy job or obtained by fraud . I agree it has happened but if your employer does a good job supporting evidence of the need to retain you in a permanent basis , he has chances to succeed .

 

[katja2684]

Just to clarify , Speaking another language as a requirement to obtain an lmia is not allowed by Service Canada unless is french or supported with very strong evidence .
The employer can apply for the NON fee lmia and must prove why he selected the foreign national over Canadians of PR. If you have higher qualifications than the other applicants and you were selected with a fair process among the others then your company can justify why they want to support your application with the LMIA . You seem not to understand how the LMIA process is about and for positions like yours chances are your lmia will be decided in less than a month . You must talk to your employer and find out the real reason behind not wanting to support you with the lmia as it is clear that you don't understand who it works. The requirement of a foreign language is not longer allowed by Service Canada . The lmia for you is free of charge , yes they must advertise the position and sport lots of evidence but if you are a valued asset for your employer nothing is stopping them to apply for it ,just excuses.
Maybe they are paying you lower than the median wage and they don't want to compromise themselves to pay you more . If you are as fantastic as you say you are , it will be easy for your employer to provide evidence for wanting to hire you in a permanent position and not a Canadian or a PR . Not all the lmia are for crappy job or obtained by fraud . I agree it has happened but if your employer does a good job supporting evidence of the need to retain you in a permanent basis , he has chances to succeed .

It's not so easy to prove you have a skill that your employer cannot find elsewhere. That's the point of the LMIA, but how many employers can prove it?

 

[Jaxon911]

It's not so easy to prove you have a skill that your employer cannot find elsewhere. That's the point of the LMIA, but how many employers can prove it?

It is bit difficult but not very difficult to prove it if employer really wish to do so. I know because I'm here in the UK on Tier 2 visa and my employer had to get Labour Market Opinino, which is exactly the same thing.

My employer had to prove that job was advertised in the market for few weeks and that no other candidate who appeared for interview was able to pass the interview and job criteria. And they did have tough tech tests and interviews so they did provide a test results of a couple of candidates as evidence along with print out of job advertisement.

In short, employers don't need to prove that they foreigner they wish to hire has skills which doesn't exist in Canada at all. All they have to prove is that they've made a reasonable effort in trying to find a local candidate, still they believe a foreigner is a better fit for the job.

And of course, if an employer is really willing to hire a foreigner, then I'm sure they can make this much effort for immigration purpose.

 

[katja2684]

It is bit difficult but not very difficult to prove it if employer really wish to do so. I know because I'm here in the UK on Tier 2 visa and my employer had to get Labour Market Opinino, which is exactly the same thing.

My employer had to prove that job was advertised in the market for few weeks and that no other candidate who appeared for interview was able to pass the interview and job criteria. And they did have tough tech tests and interviews so they did provide a test results of a couple of candidates as evidence along with print out of job advertisement.

In short, employers don't need to prove that they foreigner they wish to hire has skills which doesn't exist in Canada at all. All they have to prove is that they've made a reasonable effort in trying to find a local candidate, still they believe a foreigner is a better fit for the job.

And of course, if an employer is really willing to hire a foreigner, then I'm sure they can make this much effort for immigration purpose.

i don't agree with you, reasonable effort isn't enough because this means that everyone can get an LMIA. The point of LMIA is to fill in gaps in the labour market, not to help employers hire foreigners. But let me give you another example, for Intra-company permits. in 2013 I was given the permit in 2 months. After the government decided to overhaul the TFW programs in June 2014, the rules for ICT were also tightened.my company is trying since then to bring over another person on ICT and the work permit got denied 3 times.the reason for this being that they couldn't prove this person possesses specialized skills. At the time I got my work permit,we didn't need to prove any specialized skill.my point is that 2015 is election year in Canada and all these rules with the TFW overhaul, LMIA requirement for valid job offer for immigration etc. serve the purpose of showing that the government cares about its own citizens.they are not meant to help foreigners in any way.

 

[Jaxon911]

i don't agree with you, reasonable effort isn't enough because this means that everyone can get an LMIA. The point of LMIA is to fill in gaps in the labour market, not to help employers hire foreigners. But let me give you another example, for Intra-company permits. in 2013 I was given the permit in 2 months. After the government decided to overhaul the TFW programs in June 2014, the rules for ICT were also tightened.my company is trying since then to bring over another person on ICT and the work permit got denied 3 times.the reason for this being that they couldn't prove this person possesses specialized skills. At the time I got my work permit,we didn't need to prove any specialized skill.my point is that 2015 is election year in Canada and all these rules with the TFW overhaul, LMIA requirement for valid job offer for immigration etc. serve the purpose of showing that the government cares about its own citizens.they are not meant to help foreigners in any way.

Well, you could be very well right because what I said is based on my knowledge of the process in the UK. However, as far as I know, only way to prove that employer is unable to find a local candidate is show that they've tried to hire someone locally for a month or so but couldn't find a suitable candidate. And of course they've to provide documents such as proof that job was advertised for required duration and candidates were given a fair consideration.

However, I agree that those holding PG Work Permit should be given exemption from LMIA if they are already working for that employer and they are working for a skilled job and paid above national average for that job!