Help!! Residency Obligation question

[Samrao100]

In regards to the @Samrao100 situation, and the PR TD application in particular, the supporting documents for "proof of RO" should have been included with the application, but additionally @Samrao100 received notice to submit this "proof of RO" anyway. I quoted the applicable part of Appendix A describing what to submit. There should be NO confusion about this.

There should also be NO confusion about the difference in what supporting documents need to be submitted with a PR TD application that are not necessarily required when making a PR card application.

For a PR TD application, supporting documents which show "residency" in Canada are required. In addition to the applicable instructions for a PR TD application, IMM 5529, also see the document checklist (IMM 5644) which, in the section titled "Applying for a permanent resident travel document (PRTD):" specifically provides for including (in addition to other documents to include) "Copies of supporting documents that show you meet the residency obligation. See Residency obligation section of the Instruction Guide (IMM 5529)."

So . . .

I am not sure what is tripping you up about this. So I don't know how much detail to get into explaining things. I know you are trying to be helpful and are focused on sorting out how things actually work.

But sorry, no, the instructions for making a PR TD application clearly require the PR to submit supporting documents as described in Appendix A in the applicable guide. And, again, the applicable guide, for a PR TD application, is IMM 5529.

Perhaps this identifies what you have missed:
NO, there are separate guides/instructions for PR TD applications (IMM 5529) and PR card applications (IMM 5445).

PR TD application instructions: Again, the guide for the PR TD application is IMM 5529. It is titled: "Guide 5529 - Applying for a Permanent Resident Travel Document (PRTD)" and, again, is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5529-applying-permanent-resident-travel-document.html NOTE/CAUTION: there are also country specific requirements, so additional documents may need to be included. Follow link to get checklist and forms on the IRCC's how-to-apply page AFTER selecting the country the application will be made from. How-to-apply page is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-travel-document/how-to-apply.html

PR card application instructions: The guide/instructions for a PR card application is IMM 5445. It is titled "Guide IMM 5445 - Applying for a permanent resident card (PR card)" and is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#appendixA

Checklist Reminder: there is also a separate, specific list of documents to include with the application, when applying for a PR TD, in the document checklist, that is IMM 5644. This checklist is used for both a PR TD application and PR card applications, some parts applying to both applications, some parts applying to just one or the other. For PR TD applications it lists RO-compliance related supporting documents, for example.

Yes, some more clarification on my part is relevant here. Has to do with my difficulty in submitting an Online PRTD application versus a paper mailing , which I’ve done twice (for a PR renewal application) & 3 times maybe for a PRTD application . And the only option is Online when applying for a PRTD from India (at present)

So, I went to the PR Online Application Portal again just to understand Why I was not able to send all required RO document proofs in my online application. And Initiated the process again to create a PRTD application but obviously not Submitted it or entered any info. I just wanted to look up the “Upload Required Documents “ section & the various categories its Drop Down menu. There are 21 categories, most of which don’t apply to me such as “Change of Name”, “Use of Representative “ etc. The ones which do are “Copy of all Passport pages”, “Proof of Residency “, “ Supplementary Travel Log” , “Letter of Explanation “ etc. Was not familiar with Creating one large PDF file with various scans attached as different pages for each category… like 1 file with a photocopy of each page of my passport
Or 1 file with a photocopy of all Boarding Passes of my travels in the last 5 years. And mentioned this in my Letter of Explanation. That I could do so as requested in an email & not through this Drop Down Menu & Upload format.

Which is obviously why I immediately received a email from IRCC 2 days later asking for the relevant documents to be submitted. It was when I was able to speak to the live agent at the Delhi High Commission I realised it was possible to combine various files & send them over as 1 large PDF & I did so, after spending a few hours for my effort.

Yes, a photocopy of my BC Vaccine Card & the Covid Vaccination Certificate issued by London Drugs , Vancouver in 2021 & of my Booster dose in 2022 at Shoppers Drug Mart, Vancouver, offers more credibility than my squash club (RENEWAL, not first time) annual membership receipt which, now I realise could be accomplished online & paid for sitting here in India & not the best proof of residency in Canada.

Also, Yes, there’s one more thing to consider, after my PR Card Renewal, if I decide to travel & return back to Canada, could still be subject to RO determination even with a valid PR Card. However, that’s something I’ll have to prepare for a few months later & will do so appropriately

 

[Ponga]

There should also be NO confusion about the difference in what supporting documents need to be submitted with a PR TD application that are not necessarily required when making a PR card application.

For a PR TD application, supporting documents which show "residency" in Canada are required. In addition to the applicable instructions for a PR TD application, IMM 5529, also see the document checklist (IMM 5644) which, in the section titled "Applying for a permanent resident travel document (PRTD):" specifically provides for including (in addition to other documents to include) "Copies of supporting documents that show you meet the residency obligation. See Residency obligation section of the Instruction Guide (IMM 5529)."

So . . .

I am not sure what is tripping you up about this. So I don't know how much detail to get into explaining things. I know you are trying to be helpful and are focused on sorting out how things actually work.

But sorry, no, the instructions for making a PR TD application clearly require the PR to submit supporting documents as described in Appendix A in the applicable guide. And, again, the applicable guide, for a PR TD application, is IMM 5529.

Perhaps this identifies what you have missed:
NO, there are separate guides/instructions for PR TD applications (IMM 5529) and PR card applications (IMM 5445).

PR TD application instructions: Again, the guide for the PR TD application is IMM 5529. It is titled: "Guide 5529 - Applying for a Permanent Resident Travel Document (PRTD)" and, again, is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5529-applying-permanent-resident-travel-document.html NOTE/CAUTION: there are also country specific requirements, so additional documents may need to be included. Follow link to get checklist and forms on the IRCC's how-to-apply page AFTER selecting the country the application will be made from. How-to-apply page is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-travel-document/how-to-apply.html

PR card application instructions: The guide/instructions for a PR card application is IMM 5445. It is titled "Guide IMM 5445 - Applying for a permanent resident card (PR card)" and is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#appendixA

Checklist Reminder: there is also a separate, specific list of documents to include with the application, when applying for a PR TD, in the document checklist, that is IMM 5644. This checklist is used for both a PR TD application and PR card applications, some parts applying to both applications, some parts applying to just one or the other. For PR TD applications it lists RO-compliance related supporting documents, for example.

Note to self: I do not have `a dog in this fight', so it's ok for me to just move on. LOL!

You write "The guide/instructions for a PR card application is 5445." Not true. IMM 5445 is in fact the GUIDE, but the instructions are part of IMM 5444. This is what's `tripping me up':


From the instructions for IMM 5444 application for a Permanent Resident Card or PRTD:

If your total time spent outside Canada is less than 1095 days, you appear to meet the residency requirements.

You may wish to proceed to question 5.7 to include any other information related to your personal circumstances that you feel would justify the retention of your PR status, if you appear to not be meeting your residency obligation. See Appendix A for more information on meeting the residency obligation.

IF...you appear to not be meeting your residency obligation. That does not mean that it is required for a PR that `appears' to meet the residency requirements. For this reason alone, perhaps the instructions (don't care about the `Guide') should be re-written.

For IMM 5644, it's the same:

Proof of residency requirements if you were outside of Canada for 1095 days or more in the past five (5) years. Please refer to Appendix A of the instruction guide for a list of the documents required.

So...why doesn't IRCC make it mandatory for ALL PRTD or PR Card applicants to provide anything from Appendix A?

Could this mean, or at least imply, that giving consent for IRCC to obtain CBSA data (especially) is usually sufficient for those that have not been outside of Canada for 1095 days or more? Even those abroad applying for a PRTD?

But again...I don't really care anymore, because my dog's not in the fight.

 

[dpenabill]

Note to self: I do not have `a dog in this fight', so it's ok for me to just move on. LOL!

But again...I don't really care anymore, because my dog's not in the fight.

If you are interested in understanding what a PR needs to include with a PR TD application . . .

I really am just trying to clarify what needs to be included. Again, I know you are trying to be helpful, and to be helpful it helps to figure out how things actually work, or in regards to this discussion, to figure out what needs to be submitted with a PR TD application.

Sorry for some repetition, but some for emphasis may help clarify things: Just the checklist alone makes it clear that in making a PR TD application the PR needs to include supporting documents that show they meet the residency obligation. (see lower part of page two of the checklist, IMM 5644)

You write "The guide/instructions for a PR card application is 5445." Not true. IMM 5445 is in fact the GUIDE, but the instructions are part of IMM 5444. This is what's `tripping me up':

From the instructions for IMM 5444 application for a Permanent Resident Card or PRTD:

If your total time spent outside Canada is less than 1095 days, you appear to meet the residency requirements.

You may wish to proceed to question 5.7 to include any other information related to your personal circumstances that you feel would justify the retention of your PR status, if you appear to not be meeting your residency obligation. See Appendix A for more information on meeting the residency obligation.

IF...you appear to not be meeting your residency obligation. That does not mean that it is required for a PR that `appears' to meet the residency requirements. For this reason alone, perhaps the instructions (don't care about the `Guide') should be re-written.

There is no cause for contest, or shouldn't be anyway, in regards to the need to include supporting documents with a PR TD application: The IRCC information about how to apply for a PR TD makes it abundantly clear that the applicant needs to include supporting documents that show they meet the residency obligation. Just the checklist (IMM 5644) alone makes this clear. And the instructions in the guide, IMM 5529, clearly affirms this.

It appears, as you say, what is tripping you up are the "instructions" for completing the form (IMM 5444) itself. Those instructions do not fully cover how to apply . . . for either a PR TD or PR card. They do not even mention the required checklist, IMM 5644.

To apply for a PR card or a PR TD, a PR NEEDS to follow the how-to-apply instructions provided by IRCC. The instructions for completing the application form itself are NOT sufficient (and especially so in regards to making a PR TD application, since there are additional, country specific instructions for many, including the requirement to include record of travel documents for some countries).


How to apply for a PR card:

The general instructions for how to apply for a PR card are here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/application-renew-replace-permanent-resident-card.html

Those instructions include links to "Instruction Guide" IMM 5445 and the "Document Checklist" IMM 5644, as well as the link to the page where the application form IMM 5444 can be downloaded (which is where the instructions you are referring to can be read).

Even though the application form itself, IMM 5444, and the instructions for completing the form itself, as well as the checklist of documents to include with the application, IMM 5644, are the same for making a PR card application and a PR TD application, the instructions (IRCC's information about) how to apply are NOT the same for a PR card application and a PR TD application.

How to apply for a PR TD:

The general instructions for how to apply for a PR TD are here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-travel-document/how-to-apply.html

Those instructions include a link to "Instruction Guide" IMM 5529. However, a specific country, where the PR is applying from, must be selected from the drop down list to get the link (and links to application form and checklist, as well as the applicable country specific instructions).


Still see this as confusing? . . . Or . . . Advocating revision of the instructions for completing the form itself?

I can see that the form specific instructions, those you refer to, do not overtly instruct the PR TD applicant to include supporting documents. I can also see that the reference to "Appendix A" does not specify where that appendix is or provide a link or even indicate what it is an appendix to. So, sure, if someone has been given a link to the IRCC page where they can download the application form, without navigating there from the how-to-apply information, the form specific instructions (how to complete the form instructions) fail to inform or instruct the applicant about including supporting documents . . . failing to instruct the applicant to even submit the checklist let alone the documents specified on the checklist.

I don't know how confusing that is for anyone not familiar with how IRCC presents information about making applications. But, yeah, seems like there should be some reference, at the least, to the checklist.

Nonetheless, anyone who follows the how-to-apply information/instructions provided by IRCC should have NO problem understanding that there is a checklist to be included with the application, which specifies what documents to include, and specific instructions about how to apply in addition to how to complete the application form itself. And in regards to the PR TD application, in particular, readily recognize they need to include supporting documents that show they meet the residency obligation.

I hope this helps. (Sincerely)

 

[Ponga]

I hope this helps. (Sincerely)

Thank you.

So, hypothetically, if you were applying to renew your PR card from inside Canada and had nowhere near 1095 days (closer to 50 days) spent outside of Canada...would you feel obligated to include anything from Appendix A, based on the language in section 5.5 of the application? Understand there's no harm in doing so, but...would you feel the need to do so?

 

[xanadu99]

Thank you.

So, hypothetically, if you were applying to renew your PR card from inside Canada and had nowhere near 1095 days (closer to 50 days) spent outside of Canada...would you feel obligated to include anything from Appendix A, based on the language in section 5.5 of the application? Understand there's no harm in doing so, but...would you feel the need to do so?

Most definitely not

 

[dpenabill]

Thank you.

So, hypothetically, if you were applying to renew your PR card from inside Canada and had nowhere near 1095 days (closer to 50 days) spent outside of Canada...would you feel obligated to include anything from Appendix A, based on the language in section 5.5 of the application? Understand there's no harm in doing so, but...would you feel the need to do so?

Sorry, but I am going to rephrase the question a little.

Following the instructions for a PR card application, if the PR is IN Canada and has spent well more than 730 days IN Canada within the previous five years (or since landing if that was less than five years ago), is there any reason to include "anything from Appendix A" when making an application to renew the PR card?​

No.

Also "NO" even if cutting-it-close.

Some Further Observations:

"Understand there's no harm in doing so, but..."​

There are solid reasons for emphasizing the best approach is to follow the instructions. Including instructions regarding what to include with the application. Generally no harm, none that has any perceptible effect anyway, will come from including additional information or documentation (other than what is required or suggested) but absent good cause better to stick to what the instructions specify. Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does. It's not absolutely mechanical, but far more rigidly mechanical in some respects than many apprehend. Best to not tinker much with the gears. Especially since including additional documents (such as proof of residency in Canada with a PR card application, unless requested) will rarely help.

 

[Samrao100]

It would be very difficult to evaluate the weight of your evidence. There are way too many variables. I doubt anyone can reliably forecast how this will go.

There are risks. You have been cutting-it-close, really close, and based on your comments about going through the process of applying for a PR TD in 2016, I'm guessing you'd not be surprised if officials approach your case with an elevated degree of scrutiny, if not overt skepticism or suspicion. It appears that you are well past the first five years of having PR status and you have not yet settled permanently in Canada, or at the least you have long continued to spend more time outside Canada than here. That does not breach the RO, but of course it makes an impression, not the sort of impression that helps.

The good news, as others have referenced at least indirectly, is that the CBSA travel history which the IRCC officials will probably access and consider, and give a lot of weight, should confirm your travel history dates. And those records are, generally, more reliability complete as well as accurate than six, seven years ago. So, for example, IRCC is relying far, far less these days on passport stamps. So as long as the travel dates you reported match those in your CBSA travel history (bolstering your credibility), it should not take a whole lot of evidence of your presence in Canada, in-between arrival and exit dates, to tip the scales enough to get the PR TD.

Beyond that; highlighting the QUALITY of evidence:

Among the many variables is the quality of this or that evidence. Not all pay stubs are equally convincing. Not all supporting documents carry the same weight relative to proving presence in Canada. Receipt showing payment of a squash club annual membership fee for the period May '22 to Apr '23, for example, clearly is not proof you are IN Canada this month. So how much weight does it carry as proof you were in Canada in September or November 2022? It is relevant. It is supporting evidence. It can help make the case. So a lot can depend on what other evidence you submitted, and the quality of that evidence, in conjunction with how the deciding officer perceives you and your information generally. Your credibility is almost certainly a big factor in how this goes for you.

BUT the MAIN THING: you have made a PR TD application and that is what is going to determine (again, mostly, not entirely) how things go.

. . . That Said . . .

Beyond that, assuming that the outcome of the PR TD application allows you to keep PR status: that will put you largely in control of how things go after that. The particulars in how the PR TD application is resolved could have a significant impact on what choices you have, what your options are and what factors to consider in making decisions.

It cannot be said for certain, but if you get a PR TD and you return to Canada, your PR card application will likely be OK. It might end up in Secondary Review, but as long as you are staying in Canada that would only mean (most likely, not for certain) the worst case scenario is having to wait a long while to get a new card and perhaps having to do an in-person pick-up. REMEMBER: a new PR card will not restart the RO clock. If you leave Canada, even with a brand new PR card, you still need to be in RO compliance, meaning you need to have been IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years. OTHERWISE you would be relying on H&C relief (or casual, lenient screening at the PoE) the next time you return to Canada.

The ONLY SAFE approach (assuming you get a PR TD) is to return to Canada and STAY for a considerable time, at the very least STAY long enough to be in RO compliance AND long enough to remain in RO compliance when returning to Canada after any further travel abroad.

It appears you may want to spend more time abroad with your ailing parent. It would be a good idea to consult, in a paid-for, in-depth consultation, with a reputable immigration lawyer to help you make decisions about relying on H&C relief.

 

[Samrao100]

It would be very difficult to evaluate the weight of your evidence. There are way too many variables. I doubt anyone can reliably forecast how this will go.

There are risks. You have been cutting-it-close, really close, and based on your comments about going through the process of applying for a PR TD in 2016, I'm guessing you'd not be surprised if officials approach your case with an elevated degree of scrutiny, if not overt skepticism or suspicion. It appears that you are well past the first five years of having PR status and you have not yet settled permanently in Canada, or at the least you have long continued to spend more time outside Canada than here. That does not breach the RO, but of course it makes an impression, not the sort of impression that helps.

The good news, as others have referenced at least indirectly, is that the CBSA travel history which the IRCC officials will probably access and consider, and give a lot of weight, should confirm your travel history dates. And those records are, generally, more reliability complete as well as accurate than six, seven years ago. So, for example, IRCC is relying far, far less these days on passport stamps. So as long as the travel dates you reported match those in your CBSA travel history (bolstering your credibility), it should not take a whole lot of evidence of your presence in Canada, in-between arrival and exit dates, to tip the scales enough to get the PR TD.

Beyond that; highlighting the QUALITY of evidence:

“ So, finally, looks like my PR TD application is Approved (applied for PR Card Renewal Jan 15 just before leaving YYZ, applied Jan 24 for PRTD from India & today, March 24 received an email from IRCC for Passport Submission to the relevant VFS & note their Cautious wording “ A decision on your application has been made, we require your passport for final processing “

Obviously, at this stage the only scenario of rejection might be… everything Matches my personal information, including the additional documents, BUT someone else’s photo is on my passport… things like that are possible in light of some Huge Immigration Scams recently “


BUT the MAIN THING: you have made a PR TD application and that is what is going to determine (again, mostly, not entirely) how things go.

. . . That Said . . .

Beyond that, assuming that the outcome of the PR TD application allows you to keep PR status: that will put you largely in control of how things go after that. The particulars in how the PR TD application is resolved could have a significant impact on what choices you have, what your options are and what factors to consider in making decisions.

It cannot be said for certain, but if you get a PR TD and you return to Canada, your PR card application will likely be OK. It might end up in Secondary Review, but as long as you are staying in Canada that would only mean (most likely, not for certain) the worst case scenario is having to wait a long while to get a new card and perhaps having to do an in-person pick-up. REMEMBER: a new PR card will not restart the RO clock. If you leave Canada, even with a brand new PR card, you still need to be in RO compliance, meaning you need to have been IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years. OTHERWISE you would be relying on H&C relief (or casual, lenient screening at the PoE) the next time you return to Canada.

The ONLY SAFE approach (assuming you get a PR TD) is to return to Canada and STAY for a considerable time, at the very least STAY long enough to be in RO compliance AND long enough to remain in RO compliance when returning to Canada after any further travel abroad.

It appears you may want to spend more time abroad with your ailing parent. It would be a good idea to consult, in a paid-for, in-depth consultation, with a reputable immigration lawyer to help you make decisions about relying on H&C relief.

 

[dpenabill]

[content of February post by me]

Are you trying to ask a follow-up question or comment on what has since happened in your case?

If so, it will help to separate your questions or comments from what was in my post.

 

[Samrao100]

Are you trying to ask a follow-up question or comment on what has since happened in your case?

If so, it will help to separate your questions or comments from what was in my post.

Yes, sorry am commenting on my Case , also based on your Observations.

In fact, the last time I'd clarified some Doubts which you'd raised, in a Reply to Your Comment, the whole thing ie my Reply + your Comment went beyond 10,000 words & thus had to Cut some paragraphs of yours to fit in my answer in the prescribed limit. But this time, it wont happen.

So, just to add on what you said: the approval of my PR TD seems to indicate a favorable outcome by IRCC of my Pending PR Renewal application. The latter might take longer, or go into Secondary Review which might mean a few more months wait in Canada. Or likely, a In Person

 

[Samrao100]

Yes, sorry am commenting on my Case , also based on your Observations.

In fact, the last time I'd clarified some Doubts which you'd raised, in a Reply to Your Comment, the whole thing ie my Reply + your Comment went beyond 10,000 words & thus had to Cut some paragraphs of yours to fit in my answer in the prescribed limit. But this time, it wont happen.

So, just to add on what you said: the approval of my PR TD seems to indicate a favorable outcome by IRCC of my Pending PR Renewal application. The latter might take longer, or go into Secondary Review which might mean a few more months wait in Canada. Or likely, a In Person

Sorry again " In person Pickup, where I might likely be lectured about Residency Obligations and my responsibilities towards maintaining my PR"

 

[dpenabill]

. . . the last time I'd clarified some Doubts which you'd raised, in a Reply to Your Comment, the whole thing ie my Reply + your Comment went beyond 10,000 words & thus . . .

If I am am posting about a complex subject, which is what I mostly focus on these days (and even then only in regards to a narrow range of particular subjects), my content alone will often approach the 10k character limit. Better to just use limited, selective quotes from me, rather than trying to quote much, let alone most or all of what I posted.

But also be sure to make comments or ask questions OUTSIDE the quoted area, to distinguish what you are posting from what is being quoted.

. . . the approval of my PR TD seems to indicate a favorable outcome by IRCC of my Pending PR Renewal application. The latter might take longer, or go into Secondary Review which might mean a few more months wait in Canada. Or likely, a In Person [Pickup, where I might likely be lectured about Residency Obligations and my responsibilities towards maintaining my PR ]

Assuming "the approval of my PR TD" is about the PR TD application made this year, in January, if you are now reporting that this PR TD has indeed been approved, that's very good news, congratulations is in order, and the update is appreciated.

What this means is there has been a positive determination you meet the requirements for keeping PR status as of the date of the application for the PR TD. It may indeed "indicate a favorable outcome by IRCC of my Pending PR Renewal application," but that would be indirectly . . . because the underlying facts are largely the same (not entirely but close).

More significantly, however, again only indirectly based on the facts being largely the same, this signals there is very little risk that your PR card application might trigger section 44(1) Inadmissibility proceedings.

Whether or not the PR card application gets entangled in further non-routine processing which delays its approval and the issuance of a new card could depend on how soon you actually use the PR TD to return to Canada. The sooner you return, the lower the risk of further delays in processing the PR card application.

It is possible the PR card application could be approved and a PR card issued before you actually return to Canada. I do not know for certain, not close, BUT the odds that an in-person PR card pick-up is required are a lot higher if you are still abroad when the PR card application is approved. If you return to Canada BEFORE processing the PR card application is completed, the odds should be fairly good that the card will be mailed . . . but, cutting-it-close as you have, means there remains a significant risk IRCC will require an in-person pick-up.

If you need to do an in-person pick-up, that will mostly focus on verifying your identity and your presence in Canada. Some questions and comments may be about RO compliance, but there should not be any "lecture," unless you would consider an agent's brief reminder about the RO to be a "lecture."

All that said, if the PR TD has been approved, that's the main thing, that means there will be no serious problems . . . depending, of course, on your return to Canada soon enough to avoid falling short of the RO going forward.