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Help!! Residency Obligation question

 

YoungKid

Newbie
Nov 28, 2016
4
1
Hello all,

I have an almost similar question about RO compliance. My permanent resident card will be expiring this summer, and on the day of expiry I would have lived in Canada for an estimated 696 +/- 10 days out of 730 days in Canada.

A summary of my situation,

I landed in May 2018, and worked in Canada for 6 months, then left to go be with my then GF (now wife). A year earlier, in June 2017, I had tried to assist my girlfriend to apply for a visitor visa but it was refused, the reason being they are not sure she will return after her visit to Canada. So we continued with our long distance and I kept visiting once in a while which also contributed to my not meeting the days.

In 2018 we had a son. So I had to leave Canada and be with my son and his mother. I found a fly-in/fly-out job in Russia, so I worked 6 weeks in /6 weeks out from Dec 2018 - May 2021. Due to covid I got locked down in Russia for the whole of 2020 as there was a travel ban. So I lost a year there.

Aug 2020, I got married to my girlfriend, and in April 2021 we welcomed a daughter. Knowing that, I might be out of compliance with my RO, I returned to Canada July 2021, and I have been here since then. Conitnued with the long distance. So I was forced to visit for my son's birthday, daughter's birthday, wife's birthday, and Christmas break as well. Quite expensive but it had to be done if I need to see my kids.

Sept 2021, I tried to re-apply for my wife and kid's visitor visa as I thought it will be quick and I can always see them every other month. It was rejected again same reason being that the officer wasn't sure they will return to their home country since they don't have ties there.

As a result, I applied for spousal sponsorship right away and it was approved and they have landed safely in Canada. Now my question is since my PR will expire before I clock the 730 days, can I use H&C reasons? Like I had to spend time with my family, help my wife raise our kids. Also, my wife is a doctor and during the lockdown, she wasn't allowed to interact with the family as she was in the frontline, so I kind of had to help with the kids'.

I know I can wait until I get 730 days, but my worry is what if I get an emergency back at home? I am literally the breadwinner for my siblings as we have lost both parents and have to look out for them. Obviously, I can't sponsor them since they are older.

I am just looking for advice and if anyone has used COVID-19 as a compassionate reason. Also i sponsored my family and that should be a reason enough that im going to stay here.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
12,067
6,088
I know I can wait until I get 730 days, but my worry is what if I get an emergency back at home? I am literally the breadwinner for my siblings as we have lost both parents and have to look out for them. Obviously, I can't sponsor them since they are older.

I am just looking for advice and if anyone has used COVID-19 as a compassionate reason. Also i sponsored my family and that should be a reason enough that im going to stay here.
Personal opinion only, it seems to me you are better off to wait. If you have to go home for some emergency reason, you can apply for a PRTD, and with your ties/family/employment here, would likely be a strong case for H&C at that point.

Whereas: while there's not a lot of experience, it seems that IRCC is in fact declining to recognize covid as an explicit reason to 'allow' non-compliance in cases for issuing PR cards early. I'm sure I'm not phrasing that well but I mean that it seems they do not want any type of precedent that covid 'forgives' non-compliance or makes it go away, eg one can't claim they were sort-of in compliance because of covid - whereas 'normal' H&C provides lenience to the judgment of making one inadmissible, but does not make one compliant anew. (In ancient customary law, perhaps a bit analagous to the difference between a divorce and an annulment - a divorce ended a marriage but had other negative consequences, whereas an annulment made the marriage disappear retroactively)/.

And at any rate: a later submission, including a PRTD, gives you at least more days in Canada.

It is of course your decision, but from the sounds of it you do not have that long to wait (until November?) and the relative risks/benefits seem not that debatable.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
5,719
2,620
I have an almost similar question about RO compliance. My permanent resident card will be expiring this summer, and on the day of expiry I would have lived in Canada for an estimated 696 +/- 10 days out of 730 days in Canada.
. . . . . . . . .
I know I can wait until I get 730 days, but my worry is what if I get an emergency back at home? I am literally the breadwinner for my siblings as we have lost both parents and have to look out for them. Obviously, I can't sponsor them since they are older.
I largely concur with @armoured . . .
. . . with a caution.

Caution: Check your arithmetic. Remember that as of the fifth year anniversary of the day you landed that your compliance with the Residency Obligation will be based on days in Canada within the last five years, ONLY the last five years.

For example, noting you landed in May 2018, if as of June 1, 2023 you will have been physically present IN Canada 696 days since June 1, 2018 (remember, days prior to June 1, 2018 NO longer count at this point), be aware that if you were in Canada the entire month of June 2018, then for the entire month of June 2023 your RO calculation will stay the same, it will still be 696 days credit toward RO compliance (or less if you were to leave Canada during June). This is because as long as you are IN Canada during June you get one day credit for each day you are here, this year, but also lose one day credit for that date back in 2018, as that date in 2018 falls outside the relevant five years that count.​

WAITING is the only for sure SAFE approach. (Question is how long will you need to wait; looks like it is significantly longer than just another 30 or 40 days -- perhaps not until near the end of the year? or even into early 2024?)

Otherwise, you are relying either on leniency in the enforcement of the RO, or on qualifying for and being allowed relief based on H&C considerations. The PR who is in breach is AT RISK of RO enforcement action (and loss of PR status) anytime the PR:
-- arrives at a Canadian Port-of-Entry when returning to Canada from abroad​
-- applies for a new PR card​
-- applies for a PR Travel Document​
-- applies to sponsor a family member's PR application​

It appears you may have already benefitted from leniency in the enforcement of the RO, apparently waived through a PoE a time or two after you had been outside Canada for more than 1095 days since the date of your landing (which would mean there was no way to meet being in Canada 730 days within the first five years), and perhaps in being approved to sponsor your family despite being in breach of the RO (depending on whether you passed the 1095 days outside Canada threshold as of the date of that application).

Your current circumstances suggest good odds you could continue to experience significant leeway. But there is NO guarantee of that; there is some RISK otherwise. As already noted, a PR in breach is at RISK of RO enforcement action anytime the PR arrives at a Canadian PoE, applies for a new PR card, or applies for a PR TD.

We cannot offer much quantification of the risks, no precise quantification at all, and for sure not any assurances as to what is even likely to happen let alone what will happen. The leniency you appear to have experienced so far is consistent with what we know, including what we know based on actual cases in which the RO has been enforced, and what we can reasonably glean from scores of anecdotal reports similar to yours. We can surmise that the odds are good you will not lose your PR status if you apply for a PR card or take a brief trip abroad, albeit the risks might be considerably more if you go abroad and need to obtain a PR TD to return to Canada. The length of time abroad would be a big factor as well..

@armoured states "a later submission, including a PRTD, gives you at least more days in Canada." The point of this is that more days IN Canada decreases the risk of negative action, improving the odds you will be granted a new PR card, or a PR TD, and not subject to inadmissibility proceedings. And even if your RO calculation itself is stuck for awhile (losing a 2018 day for the same date you are here in 2023), for H&C purposes the more days you stay now, and as of now further establishing you are settled here, should improve your odds even if it does not increase the number of days credit (with the caveat that the number of days credit remains a big factor, a bigger factor).

PR Card Application In Particular:

Again, we cannot say what will happen or what will most likely happen. But we know that applications relying on H&C relief generally go into non-routine processing and take longer to process. So, even if the PR card application ultimately succeeds, as in it is approved and the PR is delivered a new card, this can take a lot longer than it will for an application by a PR who meets the RO as of the day the application is made. So for many PRs there is NO advantage at all in rushing the application, since making it sooner does NOT result in getting a new PR card sooner, and indeed for the PR in breach it can and often will mean not getting a new PR card for a longer period of time . . . meanwhile that application is made at the risk of triggering inadmissibility proceedings rather than the application being approved.

Summary: waiting to apply when in RO compliance improves the odds of getting a new PR card sooner, in addition to eliminating the RISK of a negative outcome.

Emergency Travel and PR TDs:

Once your PR card expires, if you go abroad without waiting, first, to get into RO compliance, the risk of RO enforcement issues increase significantly. Remember, a PR abroad without a valid PR card is PRESUMED to not have valid PR status. Remember that PR TD applications relying on H&C relief tend to take longer, sometimes a lot, lot longer to process. Just how long the PR is stuck abroad pending PR TD application processing can become an issue for the PR in breach relying on H&C relief.

As long as your PR card is valid, it looks like you have good odds you can travel abroad, briefly, and return to Canada with fairly low risk of triggering inadmissibility proceedings at the PoE. Probably. We cannot say for sure. There is no guarantee. But as you noted yourself, some positive consideration will be given a PR who fits the profile of an immigrant who may have had some issues getting here while and settling here, but otherwise finally managing to get settled here, to stay here.

That's about leniency. Leniency has its limits. Not at all well defined limits. Rather, rather nebulous limits. It is very difficult to predict what will tip the scales in these cases.

Applications for a PR Travel Document, however, go more by the book. If you are short, that is in breach of the RO, you really will be relying on H&C relief; not leniency but overt H&C relief. Yes, of course you can explain your reasons, the circumstances that led to being outside Canada so long you fail to meet the RO, and those will be taken into consideration before a decision is made to deny the PR TD application. But that's a gamble. And, again, the presumption is against you. And, again, just getting stuck abroad during this process can be a real problem for many.

My guess, emphasis on it being a GUESS, is you would still be OK. But there is a significant risk of being stuck abroad while the application for a PR TD is processed, and then being denied a PR TD, and having to appeal and apply for a special PR TD to return to Canada pending an appeal, and if you are serious about saving your chance to build a life in Canada going forward . . . well, there's how long all that takes, whether to suffer the cost of a lawyer versus taking your chances on appeal without one, and whether your spouse now in Canada can ultimately sponsor you if you lose PR status. Lots of what-ifs, with lots of ways to save your PR status despite this or that negative decision along the way, BUT, but that is no way to go if you can avoid it. You can avoid it (the worst of it anyway) by staying long enough you have been IN Canada 730 days within the preceding five years.
 
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YoungKid

Newbie
Nov 28, 2016
4
1
@armoured and @dpenabill that's for your detailed explanation. I fully agree with what you have said. I honestly don't think taking a risk is worth it. I wanted to know if I can stand a chance with h&c and hear from anyone who has experience with that process.

I think I can apply in late October 2023, which gives me a bit of confidence that I will be in compliance. I came back full-time to Canada in July 2021, and I have taken 5 vacations outside Canada, each maximum of 2 weeks. So basically 70 days, rounding it up makes it 3 months. Doesn't seem bad.

Just another question, am I able to attend school, like short courses if my PR card is expired? My driver's license and health card expiry are valid until 2027, so I should be okay in that aspect.

Thanks again.
 
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
12,067
6,088
Just another question, am I able to attend school, like short courses if my PR card is expired? My driver's license and health card expiry are valid until 2027, so I should be okay in that aspect.
Yes. For the most part, while in Canada, your lack of a valid PR card (and for that matter lack of compliance with the RO) is mostly irrelevant. You are not illegal or anything of the sort. Just try to avoid interacting with IRCC before you're back in compliance ... by, for example, applying to renew PR card.
 
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YoungKid

Newbie
Nov 28, 2016
4
1
Yes. For the most part, while in Canada, your lack of a valid PR card (and for that matter lack of compliance with the RO) is mostly irrelevant. You are not illegal or anything of the sort. Just try to avoid interacting with IRCC before you're back in compliance ... by, for example, applying to renew PR card.
Thanks once more, really appreciate your insights and feedback.
 
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Ysiraj32

Hero Member
Aug 19, 2018
337
89
Yes. For the most part, while in Canada, your lack of a valid PR card (and for that matter lack of compliance with the RO) is mostly irrelevant. You are not illegal or anything of the sort. Just try to avoid interacting with IRCC before you're back in compliance ... by, for example, applying to renew PR card.
@armoured
Could you please guide accordingly...

I am short of fulfilling my RO by 60 days in the 5 years of obtaining my PR status when it expires soon. What would be the ideal date to submit my renewal considering the current covid processing delays? I do understand that during that period I will not be able to exit the country as my card would have been expired by then and I wouldn't be allowed to re-enter Canada.
 

canprofus

Hero Member
Dec 20, 2019
212
40
Yes. For the most part, while in Canada, your lack of a valid PR card (and for that matter lack of compliance with the RO) is mostly irrelevant. You are not illegal or anything of the sort. Just try to avoid interacting with IRCC before you're back in compliance ... by, for example, applying to renew PR card.
is valid PR card not required to getting employed in Canada? what else can be provided as a proof status without valid PR card? Many employers may not identify COPR as much as a valid PR card. also if one year has crossed from landing, government agencies too would not accept COPR and would require PR card for providing any benefit I believe.
 
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
12,067
6,088
@armoured
Could you please guide accordingly...

I am short of fulfilling my RO by 60 days in the 5 years of obtaining my PR status when it expires soon. What would be the ideal date to submit my renewal considering the current covid processing delays? I do understand that during that period I will not be able to exit the country as my card would have been expired by then and I wouldn't be allowed to re-enter Canada.
Just wait until you are in compliance and then submit.

I think most will say here that having some buffer - days above the minimum - is useful, but there's no-one who can say how many (probably depends whether there is a lot of travel as opposed to a straight two-year plus easily countable period, AND whether work history / ties to Canada are also straightforward). Probably also better if applicant remains in Canada after applying.

But abstracted from whether there are any complicating factors, my guess is that 30 days over the 730 (and not too many that are exactly five years ago and hence falling off from the count during processing) strikes a very reasonable balance between providing that buffer and extra waiting (with declining benefit from additional days beyond 30).

Caveat should be clear, it's just kind of a guess.
 

Ysiraj32

Hero Member
Aug 19, 2018
337
89
Just wait until you are in compliance and then submit.

I think most will say here that having some buffer - days above the minimum - is useful, but there's no-one who can say how many (probably depends whether there is a lot of travel as opposed to a straight two-year plus easily countable period, AND whether work history / ties to Canada are also straightforward). Probably also better if applicant remains in Canada after applying.

But abstracted from whether there are any complicating factors, my guess is that 30 days over the 730 (and not too many that are exactly five years ago and hence falling off from the count during processing) strikes a very reasonable balance between providing that buffer and extra waiting (with declining benefit from additional days beyond 30).

Caveat should be clear, it's just kind of a guess.
@armoured thank you for the prompt reply. Noted on 30 days to be an ideal buffer period. Would that have an impact on my current status in Canada such as making a switch to a new employer, loans, government medical or medical insurance?
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
12,067
6,088
is valid PR card not required to getting employed in Canada? what else can be provided as a proof status without valid PR card? Many employers may not identify COPR as much as a valid PR card. also if one year has crossed from landing, government agencies too would not accept COPR and would require PR card for providing any benefit I believe.
No, a PR card is not required and a SIN number should be sufficient for employers (except for eg some government positions). In fact I'm not even sure it's legal for employers (except where required) to ask for eg PR card, but I'm not an expert. An expired PR card or a COPR IS prima facie evidence that the individual is a PR - presumption should be for anyone else to rebut if they don't think so.

And I believe an employer should be firmly told that they have the SIN, CRA will respond if the SIN is not valid or does not match the name.

Repeat, there is no outright requirement to have a valid PR card at all - only for certain purposes, primary of which is to eg board a plane from outside Canada.
 
 

canprofus

Hero Member
Dec 20, 2019
212
40
No, a PR card is not required and a SIN number should be sufficient for employers (except for eg some government positions). In fact I'm not even sure it's legal for employers (except where required) to ask for eg PR card, but I'm not an expert. An expired PR card or a COPR IS prima facie evidence that the individual is a PR - presumption should be for anyone else to rebut if they don't think so.

And I believe an employer should be firmly told that they have the SIN, CRA will respond if the SIN is not valid or does not match the name.

Repeat, there is no outright requirement to have a valid PR card at all - only for certain purposes, primary of which is to eg board a plane from outside Canada.
without valid PR card, how can someone prove their status and eligibility to work in Canada? Expired documents cannot be proof and are never accepted anywhere. there are 2 key aspects that every employer would look for.. taxes and legal status. SIN number will satisfy only taxation part and I understand PRs have specific SIN, but SIN is not a photo identity and it also cannot tell if a person is currently having the same status or not.. Companies need to know if someone is in valid status and are authorized to work or not. I am not sure how can someone prove that if they don't have valid PR card.