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Help!! Residency Obligation question

ramansingh05

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Hi all,
I landed in Mar 2018 with my wife as a PR and went back due to some personal reasons. I landed back again in June 2021 and I am living here since then. My wife landed in Sep21 as we had a baby while in India and she travelled after we received Visitor visa for our baby.
Now I have below question
1: As I am completing 5 years in Mar 2023, so by when we can apply for the renewal of the PR Card. Do we need to apply only after completing 730 days or we can apply earlier as well(If yes then how many months before).?
2. Secondly, As I spent 1044 days outside on Country and I am good with +51 days(1095=3yrs), So do I need to wait till I cover off balance of 730 days(which will be completing in Feb2023) to renew my PR Card or I can do it even before that?
3. For my Wife, she is short by 27 days till Mar 2023, so can we file her PR Card renewal or not?
4. Can we provide letter of Explanation that we were coming in 2020 but due to COVID we got stuck and we had to even deliver our baby backhome.
5. Form IMM5444, Income tax info - Is there any impact on the tax if we provide details to the CRA? Even we were not here but we were filing all the taxes for all the years.

Also can we apply online as well or it has to be paper based application only?
Please help!!!
 
 

scylla

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Hi all,
I landed in Mar 2018 with my wife as a PR and went back due to some personal reasons. I landed back again in June 2021 and I am living here since then. My wife landed in Sep21 as we had a baby while in India and she travelled after we received Visitor visa for our baby.
Now I have below question
1: As I am completing 5 years in Mar 2023, so by when we can apply for the renewal of the PR Card. Do we need to apply only after completing 730 days or we can apply earlier as well(If yes then how many months before).?
2. Secondly, As I spent 1044 days outside on Country and I am good with +51 days(1095=3yrs), So do I need to wait till I cover off balance of 730 days(which will be completing in Feb2023) to renew my PR Card or I can do it even before that?
3. For my Wife, she is short by 27 days till Mar 2023, so can we file her PR Card renewal or not?
4. Can we provide letter of Explanation that we were coming in 2020 but due to COVID we got stuck and we had to even deliver our baby backhome.
5. Form IMM5444, Income tax info - Is there any impact on the tax if we provide details to the CRA? Even we were not here but we were filing all the taxes for all the years.

Also can we apply online as well or it has to be paper based application only?
Please help!!!
1. You need to wait until you have at least 730 days in Canada in the last five years. So sometime in June 2023. No, you cannot apply earlier.
2. See above.
3. She needs to wait until she has 730 days. So September 2023 is when she can apply.
4. You need to wait until you meet the residency obligation before you apply to renew your PR cards. If you apply earlier with a letter of explanation, you'll be risking rejection.
5. No impact.
 

ramansingh05

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1. You need to wait until you have at least 730 days in Canada in the last five years. So sometime in June 2023. No, you cannot apply earlier.
2. See above.
3. She needs to wait until she has 730 days. So September 2023 is when she can apply.
4. You need to wait until you meet the residency obligation before you apply to renew your PR cards. If you apply earlier with a letter of explanation, you'll be risking rejection.
5. No impact.
Thanks for your reply. So I'll be completing the 730 days/5 yrs in Feb 2023. So I am good to file for the renewal in Feb2023 right? why to wait till June 2023.
secondly same for my wife as she will be completing 730 days in Apr2023 so she can file for renewal in April 2023 itself right?
Also for any reason If we had to travel, we won't be able to if PR card is expired?

Lastly, Do you know if we can file it online as well through GCkey account?
 

scylla

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Thanks for your reply. So I'll be completing the 730 days/5 yrs in Feb 2023. So I am good to file for the renewal in Feb2023 right? why to wait till June 2023.
secondly same for my wife as she will be completing 730 days in Apr2023 so she can file for renewal in April 2023 itself right?
Also for any reason If we had to travel, we won't be able to if PR card is expired?

Lastly, Do you know if we can file it online as well through GCkey account?
Sorry - I thought you left Canada immediately after becoming PRs and then didn't return until June last year. To answer your question, yes, if you have 730 days in Canada in the previous five years in Feb, then you can apply. Same for your wife in April.

If you want to travel without valid PR cards, then you would either need to obtain PRTDs once you are outside of Canada to return or fly to the US and then re-enter Canada through a land border.
 

ramansingh05

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Sorry - I thought you left Canada immediately after becoming PRs and then didn't return until June last year. To answer your question, yes, if you have 730 days in Canada in the previous five years in Feb, then you can apply. Same for your wife in April.

If you want to travel without valid PR cards, then you would either need to obtain PRTDs once you are outside of Canada to return or fly to the US and then re-enter Canada through a land border.
Thanks a lot for your reply. so you mean from Mar18(when we landed) till Mar23. If we couldn't make 730 days then need to shift the respective no. of days and then we are good to apply the renewal. Also as renewal time is more than 3 months, Can we apply before and it will eventually meet the RO for eligibility.
 
 

scylla

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Thanks a lot for your reply. so you mean from Mar18(when we landed) till Mar23. If we couldn't make 730 days then need to shift the respective no. of days and then we are good to apply the renewal. Also as renewal time is more than 3 months, Can we apply before and it will eventually meet the RO for eligibility.
You must have 730 residency days in Canada within the last 5 years at the time you apply to renew your PR card. If you originally got PR status in March 2018, left immediately and then didn't return to Canada until June 2021, then you won't qualify to submit your application to renew your PR card until June 2023.

Again no, you cannot apply early. You must wait until you have at least 730 residency days before you submit the application to IRCC.
 

igg

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For yourself, the rule actually says:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#appendixA

If you have been a permanent resident for less than five (5) years
  • you must show that you will be able to meet the minimum of 730 days of physical presence in Canada within five (5) years of the date you became a permanent resident.

So when you fill out the table in Question 21: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#5445E5
...And you have 1094 days or less outside of Canada in the period to assess (your PR date till the date you sign), then it seems like you are able to meet your RO, but only if you stay in Canada (enough days to get 730 days) until 5 years after becoming PR.

I am not a specialist and I don't know how an officer will assess this situation.
 
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ramansingh05

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For yourself, the rule actually says:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#appendixA

If you have been a permanent resident for less than five (5) years
  • you must show that you will be able to meet the minimum of 730 days of physical presence in Canada within five (5) years of the date you became a permanent resident.

So when you fill out the table in Question 21: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#5445E5
...And you have 1094 days or less outside of Canada in the period to assess (your PR date till the date you sign), then it seems like you are able to meet your RO, but only if you stay in Canada (enough days to get 730 days) until 5 years after becoming PR.

I am not a specialist and I don't know how an officer will assess this situation.
Thanks for your reply. Can we apply online as well?
 

igg

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No, I don't think there is an online option for renewal PR application.
 
 

ramansingh05

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No, I don't think there is an online option for renewal PR application.
Do you have the document checklist?
 

igg

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Do you have the document checklist?
All should be here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html

I suggest you read those instructions through and carefully, as some things may apply to your consideration when to apply and how to fill out the forms, which documents, etc. BTW, they may decide to invite you to an interview (to pick up the card) or maybe give the card for one year only. Also, you cannot apply earlier than 9 month (270 days) before card expiry.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Hi all,
I landed in Mar 2018 with my wife as a PR and went back due to some personal reasons. I landed back again in June 2021 and I am living here since then. My wife landed in Sep21 as we had a baby while in India and she travelled after we received Visitor visa for our baby.
Now I have below question
1: As I am completing 5 years in Mar 2023, so by when we can apply for the renewal of the PR Card. Do we need to apply only after completing 730 days or we can apply earlier as well(If yes then how many months before).?
2. Secondly, As I spent 1044 days outside on Country and I am good with +51 days(1095=3yrs), So do I need to wait till I cover off balance of 730 days(which will be completing in Feb2023) to renew my PR Card or I can do it even before that?
3. For my Wife, she is short by 27 days till Mar 2023, so can we file her PR Card renewal or not?
4. Can we provide letter of Explanation that we were coming in 2020 but due to COVID we got stuck and we had to even deliver our baby backhome.
5. Form IMM5444, Income tax info - Is there any impact on the tax if we provide details to the CRA? Even we were not here but we were filing all the taxes for all the years.

Also can we apply online as well or it has to be paper based application only?
Please help!!!
This post will address ONLY the PR Residency Obligation issue, mostly in regards to making an application for a new (renewed) PR card, mostly for clarification.

The posts by @scylla and @igg cover the gist of things and effectively point you in the right direction. The most important point made, however, was by @igg in regards to reading the instructions and applying them:
"I suggest you read those instructions through and carefully, as some things may apply to your consideration when to apply and how to fill out the forms, which documents, etc."​

It is critical that PRs "carefully" and thoroughly read the instructions, for themselves, and apply them to their own situation, and make appropriate decisions for themselves based on their best understanding of the rules, per the instructions, and how the rules and instructions apply to their own facts and circumstances.

This forum can help a PR identify the applicable rules, and help a PR understand them and their application generally (emphasis on "generally"). But it is still up to the individual PR to become familiar with the rules and instructions, and to apply them to her or his own case, to the PR's own situation, as best the PR can.

In regards to the applicable rules: @igg also posted the technically correct rule about compliance with the PR RO, which it appears you already understood (considering your reference to 1044 days outside Canada since becoming a PR and being "good" with 51 days). Technically @scylla's statement about needing to have at least 730 days in Canada to be eligible for a new PR card is either wrong or incomplete (emphasis on "technically"). To be eligible for a new PR card the PR needs to be in compliance with the RO, and as @igg correctly cited, until the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing days left on the calendar until that fifth year anniversary count toward RO compliance.

It appears you recognize that counting days outside Canada is a practical approach to assessing RO compliance during the first five years after landing, and as long as that total number is less than 1095, the PR is in RO compliance.

Thus, for example, as long as the PR has not been outside Canada for 1095 or more days since landing, the PR meets the PR RO. And is eligible for a new PR card.

In particular, to be eligible for a new PR card, the PR must be in compliance with the RO. An application for a new PR card can be made up to nine months prior to the expiration of the PR's current card (note: this could easily change anytime; it has been as short as three months at times, and probably has been six months most of the time). So, under the current practice of allowing for and processing applications submitted up to nine months before the current PR card expires, you could apply for a new PR card later this fall, in 2022. And as long as you have not been outside Canada 1095 or more days since landing, you meet the RO compliance eligibility requirement . . . even though you have been IN Canada fewer than 730 days.

In particular, since you have been outside Canada for no more than 1044 days since landing in March 2018, it appears you have approximately 781 days credit toward RO compliance. As long as you STAY IN Canada this will not change until AFTER the fifth year anniversary of your landing; and, note, if you were in Canada around seven weeks when you first landed, again as long as you STAY IN Canada your RO credit will continue to be 781 days until around seven weeks after the fifth year anniversary of your first landing (for those seven weeks you gain a day's credit for staying, but are losing a day's credit as each of those days is no longer within the five years that count).

CAUTION: Just because you CAN apply, because you are in compliance with the RO and meet the RO compliance eligibility requirement, that does not necessarily mean it is a good idea to apply that soon. @scylla is among a number of veteran forum participants who typically state something like this:
Again no, you cannot apply early. You must wait until you have at least 730 residency days before you submit the application to IRCC.
And, again, technically that is NOT correct for a PR during the first five years following the date of landing, the date they became a PR. (Note: you also use the term "land" in Canada for other dates of arrival here; helps avoid confusion if references to dates of "landing" are limited to the one, specific date a PR actually becomes a PR.)

BUT in terms of when it is a good idea to apply for a new PR card, what @scylla said is nonetheless a good practical rule, the best rule to follow. So, it is NOT the actual rule, but it is a rule that works, and always works (assuming that in the meantime the PR does not leave Canada for so long as to be outside Canada a total of more than 1095 days within the preceding five years), and it is the more practical rule to follow by a big margin when the risks of non-routine processing and potentially lengthy delays in getting a new PR card are taken into consideration. That is, if the PR waits to apply for a new PR card only AFTER they meet the PR RO based on days actually in Canada, and they are staying in Canada, that FOR SURE WORKS, no need to look at the fine print or wrestle with nuances.

Beyond that, there is the question: WHY rush applying for a new PR card? For which the answer is mostly DON"T DO IT.

I do not mean to be giving advice. What @igg suggested, about reading the instructions and applying them, making your own decisions, is still more important. And there are situations in which a particular PR might judiciously, prudently, elect to rush applying for a new PR card.

But generally, and again DESPITE the fact that the way @scylla states it is not technically correct, at the very least it is usually, almost always, BETTER to wait to apply until, as @scylla's version more or less cautions, the PR is in compliance with the RO based on at least 730 days IN Canada, days actually IN Canada.

In contrast, among reasons why a PR should NOT rush applying for a new PR card, is that rushing the application almost certainly increases the risk of non-routine processing, and probably considerably so for a PR who is cutting-it-close. Reminder: subject to the extent it appears the PR has settled here and is living in Canada PERMANENTLY, cutting-it-close can mean having up to around 900 days credit for days actually IN Canada (that is, having spent more days abroad than in Canada, while noting that the more readily apparent it is the PR is fully settled and living PERMANENTLY in Canada, the safer a smaller margin over the minimum is).

Current processing timeline, around four months, means nothing if the application is subject to non-routine processing. Secondary Review can take a full year for example. Not much point in applying for a PR card early if it means not actually getting a new card for 10 months or longer.

It is also worth remembering that a new PR card does NOT restart the clock. Once you reach that fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, RO compliance as of that day and from then on will be based on days IN Canada within the previous five years.
 
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ramansingh05

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Awaited
This post will address ONLY the PR Residency Obligation issue, mostly in regards to making an application for a new (renewed) PR card, mostly for clarification.

The posts by @scylla and @igg cover the gist of things and effectively point you in the right direction. The most important point made, however, was by @igg in regards to reading the instructions and applying them:
"I suggest you read those instructions through and carefully, as some things may apply to your consideration when to apply and how to fill out the forms, which documents, etc."​

It is critical that PRs "carefully" and thoroughly read the instructions, for themselves, and apply them to their own situation, and make appropriate decisions for themselves based on their best understanding of the rules, per the instructions, and how the rules and instructions apply to their own facts and circumstances.

This forum can help a PR identify the applicable rules, and help a PR understand them and their application generally (emphasis on "generally"). But it is still up to the individual PR to become familiar with the rules and instructions, and to apply them to her or his own case, to the PR's own situation, as best the PR can.

In regards to the applicable rules: @igg also posted the technically correct rule about compliance with the PR RO, which it appears you already understood (considering your reference to 1044 days outside Canada since becoming a PR and being "good" with 51 days). Technically @scylla's statement about needing to have at least 730 days in Canada to be eligible for a new PR card is either wrong or incomplete (emphasis on "technically"). To be eligible for a new PR card the PR needs to be in compliance with the RO, and as @igg correctly cited, until the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing days left on the calendar until that fifth year anniversary count toward RO compliance.

It appears you recognize that counting days outside Canada is a practical approach to assessing RO compliance during the first five years after landing, and as long as that total number is less than 1095, the PR is in RO compliance.

Thus, for example, as long as the PR has not been outside Canada for 1095 or more days since landing, the PR meets the PR RO. And is eligible for a new PR card.

In particular, to be eligible for a new PR card, the PR must be in compliance with the RO. An application for a new PR card can be made up to nine months prior to the expiration of the PR's current card (note: this could easily change anytime; it has been as short as three months at times, and probably has been six months most of the time). So, under the current practice of allowing for and processing applications submitted up to nine months before the current PR card expires, you could apply for a new PR card later this fall, in 2022. And as long as you have not been outside Canada 1095 or more days since landing, you meet the RO compliance eligibility requirement . . . even though you have been IN Canada fewer than 730 days.

In particular, since you have been outside Canada for no more than 1044 days since landing in March 2018, it appears you have approximately 781 days credit toward RO compliance. As long as you STAY IN Canada this will not change until AFTER the fifth year anniversary of your landing; and, note, if you were in Canada around seven weeks when you first landed, again as long as you STAY IN Canada your RO credit will continue to be 781 days until around seven weeks after the fifth year anniversary of your first landing (for those seven weeks you gain a day's credit for staying, but are losing a day's credit as each of those days is no longer within the five years that count).

CAUTION: Just because you CAN apply, because you are in compliance with the RO and meet the RO compliance eligibility requirement, that does not necessarily mean it is a good idea to apply that soon. @scylla is among a number of veteran forum participants who typically state something like this:


And, again, technically that is NOT correct for a PR during the first five years following the date of landing, the date they became a PR. (Note: you also use the term "land" in Canada for other dates of arrival here; helps avoid confusion if references to dates of "landing" are limited to the one, specific date a PR actually becomes a PR.)

BUT in terms of when it is a good idea to apply for a new PR card, what @scylla said is nonetheless a good practical rule, the best rule to follow. So, it is NOT the actual rule, but it is a rule that works, and always works (assuming that in the meantime the PR does not leave Canada for so long as to be outside Canada a total of more than 1095 days within the preceding five years), and it is the more practical rule to follow by a big margin when the risks of non-routine processing and potentially lengthy delays in getting a new PR card are taken into consideration. That is, if the PR waits to apply for a new PR card only AFTER they meet the PR RO based on days actually in Canada, and they are staying in Canada, that FOR SURE WORKS, no need to look at the fine print or wrestle with nuances.

Beyond that, there is the question: WHY rush applying for a new PR card? For which the answer is mostly DON"T DO IT.

I do not mean to be giving advice. What @igg suggested, about reading the instructions and applying them, making your own decisions, is still more important. And there are situations in which a particular PR might judiciously, prudently, elect to rush applying for a new PR card.

But generally, and again DESPITE the fact that the way @scylla states it is not technically correct, at the very least it is usually, almost always, BETTER to wait to apply until, as @scylla's version more or less cautions, the PR is in compliance with the RO based on at least 730 days IN Canada, days actually IN Canada.

In contrast, among reasons why a PR should NOT rush applying for a new PR card, is that rushing the application almost certainly increases the risk of non-routine processing, and probably considerably so for a PR who is cutting-it-close. Reminder: subject to the extent it appears the PR has settled here and is living in Canada PERMANENTLY, cutting-it-close can mean having up to around 900 days credit for days actually IN Canada (that is, having spent more days abroad than in Canada, while noting that the more readily apparent it is the PR is fully settled and living PERMANENTLY in Canada, the safer a smaller margin over the minimum is).

Current processing timeline, around four months, means nothing if the application is subject to non-routine processing. Secondary Review can take a full year for example. Not much point in applying for a PR card early if it means not actually getting a new card for 10 months or longer.

It is also worth remembering that a new PR card does NOT restart the clock. Once you reach that fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, RO compliance as of that day and from then on will be based on days IN Canada within the previous five years.
Thanks for your explanation. It sums up all.
So basically I am eligible to renew my card when there will be 9 months left but I shouldn't apply right away. so when should I apply for the renewal? what's the best practice to apply. I mean with 3-4 months of expiry or so?

Secondly, In case of my wife she has lived 1122/1095 days outside of canada and our 5 yrs timeframe is completing on 21 Mar23 but looks like her 730 days will be completing somewhere around 20th april 23 or so.? So she needs to wait till 20th april 23 and could possibly renew after then only?
 
 

GuyanaGirl

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Thanks for your explanation. It sums up all.
So basically I am eligible to renew my card when there will be 9 months left but I shouldn't apply right away. so when should I apply for the renewal? what's the best practice to apply. I mean with 3-4 months of expiry or so?

Secondly, In case of my wife she has lived 1122/1095 days outside of canada and our 5 yrs timeframe is completing on 21 Mar23 but looks like her 730 days will be completing somewhere around 20th april 23 or so.? So she needs to wait till 20th april 23 and could possibly renew after then only?
As everyone else in here has said .

if your wife will complete 730 days around April 20, 2023 then you can only apply AFTER then . If you dare apply before you have 730 days you will be rejected and could end up in issues.
 

jakklondon

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As everyone else in here has said .

if your wife will complete 730 days around April 20, 2023 then you can only apply AFTER then . If you dare apply before you have 730 days you will be rejected and could end up in issues.
I am not sure if he truly keeps asking the same question over and over again, or if he is just trolling.