Need advice on RIV/Transport Canada issue

[besson3c]

Hello, we have a problem and really need some sound advice...

We were originally planning on importing our vehicle from the US, but decided against doing this since the process proved to be a living nightmare, particularly on the US side of things which has changed recently. Instead, we opted to leave our car in the US and buy a Canadian car.

The problem is that our life necessitated a couple of trips to and from the US during this moving process, and one of these times we were forced to fill out the RIV's form 1 to gain entrance to Canada in our US vehicle. This was before our deciding to cancel the whole export/import process. We just called the RIV to notify them that we plan to cancel this process, but they are not allowing us to do that since the car has already been imported. Instead, we either have to export the car from Canada or else the "case will be turned over to Transport Canada for them to decide what sort of fees or penalties to impose".

The car is in the US now. Driving it up to Canada sometime (I have no idea when these fees/penalties will come into play) will be a complete PITA. Does anybody know what these fees/penalties are? Does anybody know what the process of exporting a car from Canada is like, and how we'd do that with the car being in the US right now?

This is all ridiculously frustrating and ridiculously complex.

 

[rhcohen2014]

have you done research on the RIV site yet?

https://www.riv.ca/CostConsiderations.aspx

here is the link. i am a bit confused what specifically you are asking about. are you asking about the RIV fee paid for importing your car? if so, i believe it's $229 - something like that? perhaps the info about the penalty is on the same site?

from what i'm reading, it sounds like you now need to export it from canada and import it back to the states? or am i misunderstanding the situation?

here's the info on importing/exporting cars in the us, just in case:
http://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-import-export

out of curiousity, what specific issue came up that made you decide to not import the car originally? I plan to do this later in the month, so any details would be helpful. thanks!

 

[besson3c]

have you done research on the RIV site yet?


here is the link. i am a bit confused what specifically you are asking about. are you asking about the RIV fee paid for importing your car? if so, i believe it's $229 - something like that? perhaps the info about the penalty is on the same site?

from what i'm reading, it sounds like you now need to export it from canada and import it back to the states? or am i misunderstanding the situation?

here's the info on importing/exporting cars in the us, just in case:


out of curiousity, what specific issue came up that made you decide to not import the car originally? I plan to do this later in the month, so any details would be helpful. thanks!

I've gone through the RIV site very carefully.

I want to know what the penalties will be for "canceling" an import for a car that is not in Canada, yet has a form 1 filed for it. I also want to know what the process is like for exporting a car out of Canada. I don't need to import it into the US, it was never exported from the US.

I need to either accept a penalty from Transport Canada, or else go through some sort of process to export the car from Canada to get it out of the RIV's system.

Does this make sense now?

 

[rhcohen2014]

yes, it does.

have you tried contacting cbsa instead of the RIV to find out if THEY can cancel it or direct you how to? it seems CBSA is the point of contact with importing, so if your important hasn't been finanlized, they may still be able to help you.

not being able to find info on EXPORTING non-commercial goods from canada, i wonder if it's even necessary for a personal vehicle? if it hasn't been exportd from the us, then why wouldn't you be able drive it back and use it there? wouldn't it still technically be a us car?

personally, i'd start with CBSA. if you don't go through the final proceedures for import, then i wonder if it actually is considered imported?

 

[besson3c]

yes, it does.

have you tried contacting cbsa instead of the RIV to find out if THEY can cancel it or direct you how to? it seems CBSA is the point of contact with importing, so if your important hasn't been finanlized, they may still be able to help you.

not being able to find info on EXPORTING non-commercial goods from canada, i wonder if it's even necessary for a personal vehicle? if it hasn't been exportd from the us, then why wouldn't you be able drive it back and use it there? wouldn't it still technically be a us car?

personally, i'd start with CBSA. if you don't go through the final proceedures for import, then i wonder if it actually is considered imported?

The CBSA does have some info on exporting goods from Canada, but they are tailored towards businesses. To answer one of your earlier questions which I failed to address, the reason why I aborted the original export/import was because the US export process is just so incredibly complex and detailed now with nobody available to help beyond emailing you stock answers. I got as far as passing the AESDirect test and adding my shipment to their system, but I couldn't get any clarification for an important detail about how long a vehicle has to "be in the US" to be eligible for export (it was in Canada at that time). Fortunately with their system deleting a shipment is trivial - you can do this on your own, one would expect to be able to do the same in the RIV system. We just didn't feel comfortable with the US system, it was taking way too much time, was very intimidating, and it didn't seemed setup to support simple use cases like ours. They did make me learn about vessel shipments to Puerto Rico though, this was a part of their mandatory test

I'm going to be contacting Transport Canada and the CBSA next week. I too was thinking that if we didn't go through the final procedures that the import would just be canceled, which is what we want, but the RIV guy we spoke with made references to Transport Canada penalties, although he couldn't provide any specific information.

 

[rhcohen2014]

The CBSA does have some info on exporting goods from Canada, but they are tailored towards businesses. To answer one of your earlier questions which I failed to address, the reason why I aborted the original export/import was because the US export process is just so incredibly complex and detailed now with nobody available to help beyond emailing you stock answers. I got as far as passing the AESDirect test and adding my shipment to their system, but I couldn't get any clarification for an important detail about how long a vehicle has to "be in the US" to be eligible for export (it was in Canada at that time). Fortunately with their system deleting a shipment is trivial - you can do this on your own, one would expect to be able to do the same in the RIV system. We just didn't feel comfortable with the US system, it was taking way too much time, was very intimidating, and it didn't seemed setup to support simple use cases like ours. They did make me learn about vessel shipments to Puerto Rico though, this was a part of their mandatory test

I'm going to be contacting Transport Canada and the CBSA next week. I too was thinking that if we didn't go through the final procedures that the import would just be canceled, which is what we want, but the RIV guy we spoke with made references to Transport Canada penalties, although he couldn't provide any specific information.

your experience seems different from most people. this is the first time hearing about a "test" in order to export the car? in fact, i'm super confused about that part. it is my understanding the car must be in the us for at least 72 hours prior to exporting, and as long as all the required documentation is done, you email the visa office at least 72 hours prior, it's pretty straightforward at the border.

I would imagine a person answering the phone at the RIV doesn't actually knows what importing a car actually entails. Again, i think it' CBSA you want to talk to, not RIV. To me, RIV is more of the "tax collector", and CBSA is the actual agency that does the actual importing process.

 

[besson3c]

your experience seems different from most people. this is the first time hearing about a "test" in order to export the car? in fact, i'm super confused about that part. it is my understanding the car must be in the us for at least 72 hours prior to exporting, and as long as all the required documentation is done, you email the visa office at least 72 hours prior, it's pretty straightforward at the border.

Yeah, it's a new system and policy: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1736/~/exporting-self-propelled-vehicles it's called AESDirect, and basically makes individuals enter their own shipments directly into the US system rather than some agent doing this on their behalf. The training quiz is for using AESDirect. It seems like one of those services that trades off organizational convenience for customer inconvenience.

I would imagine a person answering the phone at the RIV doesn't actually knows what importing a car actually entails. Again, i think it' CBSA you want to talk to, not RIV. To me, RIV is more of the "tax collector", and CBSA is the actual agency that does the actual importing process.

Thanks for this, I'll report back to this thread as to what the CBSA/Transport Canada tells us!

 

[rhcohen2014]

Yeah, it's a new system and policy: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1736/~/exporting-self-propelled-vehicles it's called AESDirect, and basically makes individuals enter their own shipments directly into the US system rather than some agent doing this on their behalf. The training quiz is for using AESDirect. It seems like one of those services that trades off organizational convenience for customer inconvenience.

i am not convinced this is right for exporting a vehicle for personal use that is already owned. the link provided, and the information i'm reading about this system lends me to believe this is for commercial exporting of merchandise.

this is the information i'm finding about exporting, and i don't see where it suggests its required to use that system:

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/307/~/requirements-for-exporting-a-vehicle-(including%3A-snowmobile,-atv-and-motorcycle)

i'll certainly do some more of my own research to know for sure! good luck with your calls!

 

[besson3c]

i am not convinced this is right for exporting a vehicle for personal use that is already owned. the link provided, and the information i'm reading about this system lends me to believe this is for commercial exporting of merchandise.

this is the information i'm finding about exporting, and i don't see where it suggests its required to use that system:

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/307/~/requirements-for-exporting-a-vehicle-(including%3A-snowmobile,-atv-and-motorcycle)

i'll certainly do some more of my own research to know for sure! good luck with your calls!

That's exactly what I thought too, but from this same page:

Exporting a vehicle may require the filing of Electronic Export Information (EEI) with CBP. Please see our Q&A When to apply for EEI.

Processing EEI is what AESDirect is for. From the Q&A:

The Electronic Export Information (EEI) needs to be filed when the value of the commodity classified under each individual Schedule B number is over $2,500 or if a validated export license is required to export the commodity. The exporter is responsible for preparing the EEI and the carrier files it with U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) through the AES or AES Direct.

 

[rhcohen2014]

i don't think a car for personal use is considered a "commodity" and a license is not needed to export a personal vehicle, so i don't see how that applies? perhaps i misunderstand the definition of commodity as it's used here. to me that suggests a commercial good.

and further down it also says this:

"If the exporter is sending baggage or containers with their personal or household goods valued over $2,500 to a foreign destination, other than Canada, they must file the EEI and provide the ITN to the carrier in accordance with the timeline'"

and this:

"There are instances when the EEI is not required. Some examples of when the EEI does not have to be prepared by an exporter and filed by the carrier are as follows:

Exporters sending shipments in which the ultimate destination is Canada, as long as the goods are not licensed or contain rough or uncut diamonds, or shipments to U.S. possessions."

so the way i read this, is when exporting something to canada, this EEI is not required?

 

[besson3c]

To be clear, I was successful in using AES Direct, I received a response saying that my shipment was set, so while this entire system is not at all designed to be used by just-a-guy-that-wants-to-export-his-family-vehicle, it is possible. My only advice is to figure all of this out and suffer the pain of the learning curve well in advance. One of the fields in AES Direct was the departure date, and while this can be changed, I don't know what sort of problems would arise if you were to show up on a different date, or what sort of problems would exist if there was a problem with some input.

However, providing that our export would have been fine had we started this in the US, and that these factors would not have resulted in insurmountable obstacles, the main problem with all of this IMO is the fact that none of this is terribly transparent, and all of it is intimidating and requires absorbing a LOT of info. My wife and I are very intelligent individuals and our situation wasn't as complex as many others, I'm sure. Point being, it's too much to deal with along with all of the other moving parts that are involved with getting your moving van and planning on relocating your life, and stuff goes wrong if you don't do stuff in the proper sequence, which was obviously the case for us.

My advice: unless you really, really, really, really want to keep your vehicle (and there are a number of other hoops which need to be jumped through as well), it's probably easiest to just plan on selling your car and getting a new one in Canada. Had we only taken one trip the CBSA would have let us bring the car up without importing it, although this of course would still result in having to drive the car back across the border, which is a PITA too.

The whole car thing has been the crappiest part of our whole experience.

 

[besson3c]

i don't think a car for personal use is considered a "commodity" and a license is not needed to export a personal vehicle, so i don't see how that applies? perhaps i misunderstand the definition of commodity as it's used here. to me that suggests a commercial good.

and further down it also says this:

"If the exporter is sending baggage or containers with their personal or household goods valued over $2,500 to a foreign destination, other than Canada, they must file the EEI and provide the ITN to the carrier in accordance with the timeline'"

and this:

"There are instances when the EEI is not required. Some examples of when the EEI does not have to be prepared by an exporter and filed by the carrier are as follows:

Exporters sending shipments in which the ultimate destination is Canada, as long as the goods are not licensed or contain rough or uncut diamonds, or shipments to U.S. possessions."

so the way i read this, is when exporting something to canada, this EEI is not required?

I'm confused as hell.

This seems like a reasonable interpretation, and was my original interpretation too. We were originally planning on crossing in Detroit, and the original information we had was to email the Detroit export guys our VIN and a description of the car via a Word form that was provided on the site. I spoke to somebody on the phone that suggested that this was the case too, but he didn't seem all that confident, and said that things have been changing a great deal.

When our plans changed to drive the car down to Buffalo I contacted the Buffalo guys, and the Buffalo guy was *very clear* in saying that we need an ITN (obtained from using AES Direct). He would not accept my submission of the VIN and car description. Maybe he had some serious reading comprehension issues, I explained very clearly that I'm just a guy, but insisted that I use AES Direct.

It might be possible that the procedures differ based on port, or that some of the info on some websites is out-of-date, that I fell through the cracks with this new system, I don't know. It all sucks.

I'm happy to share with you the correspondence I had with this Buffalo guy.

 

[Mariac819]

This is all very scary and confusing. I am going to call the port I plan on crossing to verify because I cant afford to sell my car in the US and buy a new one in Canada. I just finished paying off this car. :'(

This is the port I am crossing at and at the bottom of the website the directions are pretty straight forward. Just the same stuff I have been reading around the threads.

http://www.cbp.gov/contact/ports/alexandria-bay

 

[Mariac819]

To ME it seems like this is only for businesses who are exporting.

I found this:
http://www.cbp.gov/trade/trade-community/automated/aes/about

"Getting Started


When you decide to join AES send a Letter of Intent to Census.

Upon receipt of the letter, a Customs Client Representative and a Census Client Representative will be assigned to serve as your technical advisor during development, testing and implementation."

 

[rhcohen2014]

This is all very scary and confusing. I am going to call the port I plan on crossing to verify because I cant afford to sell my car in the US and buy a new one in Canada. I just finished paying off this car. :'(

This is the port I am crossing at and at the bottom of the website the directions are pretty straight forward. Just the same stuff I have been reading around the threads.

http://www.cbp.gov/contact/ports/alexandria-bay

is that the crossing near watertown, ny? the thousand island bridge? i don't know how i missed the info about exporting there! omg, thank you - just bookmarked it!