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Effective date of Bill C24

MiriamT

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MUFC said:
The general problem with that batch (April-June) is that the volume is much higher and the cases with minimum or very close to the minimum days requirements is also increased.

On top of that let's don't forget the flush of those who are applying with Basic residence only. The attention and the scrutiny from CIC is expected to be higher, because I am sure that there will be a lot of problematic applications in that batch.

Lets don't forget all the mistakes on the applications because of that panic.
Lets also don't forget how many people will send second applications while their first one is still not opened.

There are lot of reasons why this period is a little different.
I just realized you replied to my other comment without my edit (which I did while you were typing your first answer, I gather). I don't disagree with the above, I just think that some of the estimates that can be observed in this forum (as well as outside; I personally know a lot of people panicking) are too much.
 

MUFC

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MiriamT said:
I just realized you replied to my other comment without my edit (which I did while you were typing your first answer, I gather). I don't disagree with the above, I just think that some of the estimates that can be observed in this forum (as well as outside; I personally know a lot of people panicking) are too much.
That was my main message to all the people before my vacation abroad... that I see a lot of unfounded paranoia rushing for no reason.
Now all that batch most likely will experience a small delay and increased non-routine cases, because of those who were panicking.

For some people here that Citizenship is like a huge and epic story in their lives.
It's really funny for me, but I cant prevent the consequence of that Major League Panic Game.
 

MiriamT

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MUFC said:
That was my main message to all the people before my vacation abroad... that I see a lot of unfounded paranoia rushing for no reason.
Now all that batch most likely will experience a small delay and increased non-routine cases, because of those who were panicking.

For some people here that Citizenship is like a huge and epic story in their lives.
It's really funny for me, but I cant prevent the consequence of that Major League Panic Game.
I understand it, though. I too panicked when I realized my application had one question answered in an incorrect format (pure lack of attention on my part) and because of that I called CIC twice (Thursday and Friday). Both agents told me to wait and see, but that they didn't think my application would be returned because of that. Many of us want to be Canadian (some more, some less) and want a smooth processing, and then we see that there's something wrong with the application... It can be tough for some, especially the more anxious people such as myself.
 

MUFC

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MiriamT said:
I understand it, though. I too panicked when I realized my application had one question answered in an incorrect format (pure lack of attention on my part) and because of that I called CIC twice (Thursday and Friday). Both agents told me to wait and see, but that they didn't think my application would be returned because of that. Many of us want to be Canadian (some more, some less) and want a smooth processing, and then we see that there's something wrong with the application... It can be tough for some, especially the more anxious people such as myself.
If I was in your shoes and with the plan of a fast and smooth process I would have wait for the new rules and apply short after the implementations of the new law. You have enough days of physical presence here in order to apply and be eligible under the new law very soon.
 

dpenabill

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MUFC said:
Well congrats to those who were guessing that the real cut off date will be June 11th.
How about some congratulations to those who, like screech339, among others (including me), suggested that those who were approaching the 1095 day threshold get prepared to ship the application on short notice?

Or at least those who warned this legislation could be effective well before July 1st?

That is, any recognition or apology for those you have repeatedly referred to as the "paranoid" for suggesting there might be a minimal amount of notice and it could easily come before July 1st?
 

NN74

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Many thanks dpenabill.

I will wait till CIC updates its residence calculator based on new requirements and would post further, if needed.

dpenabill said:
No. NO.

Arrrrgghhhhh.

This is not so complicated.

With isolated exceptions, it does not matter in which part of the year a PR arrives in Canada, by the time the PR meets the 1460 days total in Canada requirement he or she will most likely have already met the 4 X 183 requirement.

If the PR lands during the early part of the year, the year of landing can count as one of the four calendar years (so long as the PR stays in Canada enough that year to total 183 days for the calendar year).

If the PR lands after July 2, there are not enough days left in the year of landing for that year to count as one of the 183 days in Canada calendar years, but the year the PR goes to apply can count, and the PR will at the least have to wait until the fourth year anniversary of the day of landing anyway, which if after July 2 gives him or her the days in that year necessary to meet the 183 days requirement for that year . . . probably, in practice, a date before the PR meets the 1460 days total requirement.

For the PR who lands July 23, 2013, days present in Canada during 2013 count toward the 1460 days total.

But 2013 cannot be one of the years he or she meets the 183 days in the Calendar year requirement . . . rather 2014, 2015, 2016 could be years it is met (so long as the PR is in Canada 183 plus days in each of those years), adding up to three of the necessary four years, and in 2017 the PR will meet it in that year as soon as he or she has spent 183 days of 2017 in Canada . . . potentially as soon as July 3, 2018, that is on the 184th day of 2017.

In the meantime, though, the PR must still meet the 1460 day requirement as well, so it will be later in 2017 when that requirement is met . . . July 23, 2017 if the PR never left Canada, or add the number of days outside Canada to that.



For example, PR who lands July 23, 2013 who in turns spends December each year back home:

The 4 X 183 rule is satisfied by the four years: 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017, and thus meets this rule in total as soon as the PR has been in Canada 183 days in 2017, potentially by July 3, 2017. But this PR will not meet the 1460 days requirement until January 2018, given the 155 days total abroad from each respective December.

The 4 X 183 requirement is met in July 2017 but the 1460 requirement not met until January the next year.



There are some scenarios in which an applicant can be pushed into needing an additional calendar year or at least longer than it takes to meet the 1460 day requirement, but those will arise due to extended absences (totalling more than six months) in at least two years in addition to a post July 2 arrival in the first year, or in at least three years otherwise. For an applicant who is physically present more than 183 days every year, that applicant will meet the 4 X 183 day requirement as soon as the fourth year (plus any necessary additional days to make up for any absences earlier in that particular year) . . . which usually will be much sooner than an applicant with absences meets the 1460 day total requirement.



At the risk of belaboring this, I make a concerted effort to couch my comments in an appropriate frame of reference, including relative to degrees of confidence.

I do not know what the precise example was that the CJ offered an opinion regarding. I do not know what the basis for the CJs opinion was. Perhaps the next year eligibility was based on section 5(1)(c)(iii), regarding the obligation to comply with tax law, which also references four calendar years. And indeed, while I am fairly confident about how that will work, I am less than certain given that it is subject to some interpretation depending on what is meant by having "met any applicable requirement . . . "

Note: 5(1)(c)(iii) as added by the SCCA states that the PR must have . . . "met any applicable requirement under the Income Tax Act to file a return of income in respect of four taxation years that are fully or partially within the six years immediately before the date of his or her application"

My understanding, about which I am fairly confident but not certain, is that one will not have to wait until the end of the calendar year (as in wait until January 1 of the following year) for that to be a year in which the PR is in compliance.

The 4 X 183 rule, however, is explicit and straight-forward, its language simple enough to not involve interpretation, albeit of course one does need to know the meaning of the terms used . . . like "calendar year" (which again is the year from January 1 through December 31).

And the arithmetic is straight-forward. Once the PR is landed, all that needs to be done is to count the number of days the PR is in Canada during each respective calendar year. If that total is 183 or more in a given year, that year will count as one of the necessary four years in which the PR was present at least 183 days.

The example of the PR who landed July 15, 2014 and never leaves Canada is in particular straight forward, the arithmetic very simple:

PR in Canada since July 15, 2014, never leaves . . . 2014 cannot count as one of the calendar years meeting the 183 day requirement since this PR will be in Canada only 170 days in 2014.

But for 2015, PR in Canada for 365 days, so 2015 meets the 183 day requirement for one year.
For 2016, the PR is in Canada for 365 days, so 2016 meets the 183 day requirement for another year, now two in total.
For 2017, the PR is in Canada for 365 days, so 2017 meets the 183 day requirement for another year, now three in total.

Then, in 2018, as long as the PR remains in Canada, as soon as he has been in Canada for 183 days (which will happen as of July 3, recognizing that January 1 through June 31 are 181 days, plus two more in July, total is 183 days in 2018), the PR meets the 183 day requirement for this year, and added to the others that totals the necessary four years.

Statute explicitly allows the qualifying year to be a partial year, so no need to wait until the end of the year for the year to qualify.

. . . so as of July 3, 2018, this PR will meet the 183 days in Canada for 2018 and thus as of July 3, 2018, this PR will have met the requirement to be in Canada at least 183 days in four calendar years, those calendar years being 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018.

There is no doubt about the above. There is no reason why the PR's 183+ days presence in each of the years 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 would not count and satisfy the requirement. And again, the statute itself explicitly says it can be a partial calendar year, so there is nothing in the statute which requires waiting until the end of the year for it to count.

This PR will still not be eligible for citizenship as of that day, July 3, 2018 when the 4 X 183 requirement is satisfied, since there are other requirements that also must be met. For example the requirement to be present for 1460 days total. He cannot reach that until July 15, 2018.

There is also the requirement about meeting tax law filing obligations. Perhaps it was about this upon which the CJ based his or her conclusion about not being eligible until January 2019. I would disagree with that as well, but could not state this so definitively or stridently as I can state the observations regarding the 4 X 183 requirement. In any event, however, if the tax filing requirement will preclude the PR landing on July 15, 2015 from becoming eligible until January 2019, that is not about the 4 X 183 requirement.

I was going to say it is worth recognizing that the CIC web site actually described the before and after provisions relative to Canadian income tax as the new law requiring the payment of income taxes . . . but I notice that the new version of the before and after is different than the one CIC had posted for nearly a year, in which it said that the new requirements required the payment of Canadian income taxes . . . now the language is closer to the statute itself, which requires adult applicants to file a return, if required. Big difference.

Perhaps the CJ who offered an opinion was looking at the way CIC had this posted (until last night) and concluded that a PR who landed in July 2014 would have to pay taxes for 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018, and thus would not be eligible until January, 2019 at the earliest. Since I knew what the statute said precisely, I was fairly confident that the earlier description by CIC was overly broad (it was in other regards as well, saying for example that any criminal conviction precluded eligibility, which is way overbroad).

But since I do not know the CJ's reasoning for the opinion expressed, I cannot fully explain it.
 

MiriamT

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MUFC said:
If I was in your shoes and with the plan of a fast and smooth process I would have wait for the new rules and apply short after the implementations of the new law. You have enough days of physical presence here in order to apply and be eligible under the new law very soon.
heh, but now the application is already there and has been for days. My guess is that it would have already had a set of slow-down in applications sent due to the increased fees (which makes things more difficult for the poorer PRs), and it'll slow down even further from June 11: not only due to the new residency requirements, but also because of extra documentation which will be needed from now on (e.g. tax assessments — some people still haven't received their tax assessment from CRA).
 

MUFC

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dpenabill said:
How about some congratulations to those who, like screech339, among others (including me), suggested that those who were approaching the 1095 day threshold get prepared to ship the application on short notice?

Or at least those who warned this legislation could be effective well before July 1st?

That is, any recognition or apology for those you have repeatedly referred to as the "paranoid" for suggesting there might be a minimal amount of notice and it could easily come before July 1st?
Congrats.
But for me all the early stage paranoia was a little too much regarding the May applicants. Or those who were eligible the first week of June.
 

MUFC

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MiriamT said:
heh, but now the application is already there and has been for days. My guess is that it would have already had a set of slow-down in applications sent due to the increased fees (which makes things more difficult for the poorer PRs), and it'll slow down even further from June 11: not only due to the new residency requirements, but also because of extra documentation which will be needed from now on (e.g. tax assessments — some people still haven't received their tax assessment from CRA).
I think that the applicants will provide their SIN numbers and all the process will be much faster compared to now.

CIC will check what they need by the SIN directly to CRA database.
 

MiriamT

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MUFC said:
I think that the applicants will provide their SIN numbers and all the process will be much faster compared to now.

CIC will check what they need by the SIN directly to CRA database.
It's not that applicants will have to provide their SIN alone. They have to prove they have filed for taxes, and while they don't receive the CRA tax assessment, they can't apply, causing further delays to some applicants in the cusp of changes.
 

MUFC

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MiriamT said:
It's not that applicants will have to provide their SIN alone. They have to prove they have filed for taxes, and while they don't receive the CRA tax assessment, they can't apply, causing further delays to some applicants.
There must be a field in the new applications which will require SIN.
CIC has already developed direct business channels to the Border control and with CRA so they can check what they want directly via the business channel. I don't thing that they will require NOA in the check list, because they will have option directly to verify with CRA due to the SIN.
 

MiriamT

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MUFC said:
There must be a field in the new applications which will require SIN.
CIC has already developed direct business channels to the Border control and with CRA so they can check what they want directly via the business channel. I don't thing that they will require NOA in the check list, because they will have option directly to verify with CRA due to the SIN.
I look forward to seeing the new forms. If there's a field to provide CIC with our SIN, it'd be better than adding NOAs on the checklist. Let's wait and see.
 

dpenabill

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Observation about SIN and tax filings et al:

New regulations proposed in February and March, in conjunction with new statutory provisions regarding sharing information between government bodies, will in effect allow CIC to collect the SIN as part of the application (previously only employers and specified government bodies could legally ask for the SIN, even though others did, like banks et al; this has been expanded considerably) and then directly access information about the applicant from the CRA.

CIC has experimented with requesting NoAs from those applying for a new PR card, and for a long while has requested NoAs when RQ was issued in a citizenship case. The explanatory text in the notices for proposed regulations suggested that CIC has encountered a lot of fraudulent (not genuine) NoAs in response to requests for these. I suspect it is more like they encountered some fraudulent NoAs or such, perhaps more fraudulent T4s (these are issued by any registered employer) . . . but in any event, the future will involve CIC directly verifying information regarding applicants with the CRA, much like it currently does travel history with the CBSA.

While this should indeed help to more efficiently process citizenship applications, and in particular more efficiently screen for problematic cases so that fewer innocents are diverted into non-routine processing, in the meantime the prospect that the new multi-faceted residency requirements will pose some difficulties is high . . . more mistakes by applicants especially but more struggling to get it right among CIC staff as well, lots of room for error . . . so in the short term gains from improved efficiency may be offset by how a big bureaucracy struggles to adapt to and apply some very substantial changes.

I am having a hard time imagining what a new online residency calculator will look like. Should be interesting.
 

MUFC

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I also expect the issued RQs in the new process to be delivered more efficiently to those who deserved it.

In general I really like the new changes.

Now they will have the option directly to check everything.
 

ari5323

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dpenabill said:
How about some congratulations to those who, like screech339, among others (including me), suggested that those who were approaching the 1095 day threshold get prepared to ship the application on short notice?

Or at least those who warned this legislation could be effective well before July 1st?

That is, any recognition or apology for those you have repeatedly referred to as the "paranoid" for suggesting there might be a minimal amount of notice and it could easily come before July 1st?
What's fair is fair.
We had a big longggggggggg discussion between two respected members here.
1. Can the date be before July first ?
2. Will it be short notice or at least 2 weeks notice ?
3. Should one apply as soon as day 1096 or give it a buffer. ??

I admit I did tend to side with the trader, not with the law specialist.
I have been wrong. I sided with the wrong side. !!!!!!!!!!! DPENABILL WON BIG TIME !!!!!!!!!!!!
And now , like in any political race, who that loses has to congrats the winner , I expect from MUFC To say it loud and clear who won !!!!!