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eCoPR Issued Over 1 year ago; now expired, no PR Card, Travel Required

bookfreak6

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Jul 23, 2021
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Hello all,

I'm hoping to get some help from folks who might be more familiar with the process.

I've got overseas travel I would rather not miss coming up in 2 days. I received my eCoPR July 2021, but have not actually received the PR card. Looking at the timelines in the other thread, this seems really extreme. I'd e-mailed the IRCC PR Portal in April 2022, but got nothing past the automated reply. It just seems like there's no one to talk to?

I notice my eCoPR has "not valid for travel" written all over it. And it also expired June 10th, 2022. Doesn't seem like there's any way of getting a new one; and the portal doesn't have an update; it still links to the pdf copy of the expired eCoPR.

I have a USA passport which is still valid. Is it best just to use that to travel? Will this violate any Canadian PR requirements in any way? I don't think I can use my PR status... right?

Timelines:
Application Received by IRCC: 2020-09-14
eCoPR Issued: 2021-07-08
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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I have a USA passport which is still valid. Is it best just to use that to travel? Will this violate any Canadian PR requirements in any way? I don't think I can use my PR status... right?
You can use your USA passport to travel.

Note: when entering Canada ie to passport control, you MUST enter as a PR ie say you are a PR and show your eCOPR to identify.

But: you do NOT need to show or say to the airline booking person (when you check in to return) that you are a PR. All PRs except US citizens must show PR cards; airline people it seems are not always aware of this nuance.
 

bookfreak6

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Jul 23, 2021
6
0
You can use your USA passport to travel.

Note: when entering Canada ie to passport control, you MUST enter as a PR ie say you are a PR and show your eCOPR to identify.

But: you do NOT need to show or say to the airline booking person (when you check in to return) that you are a PR. All PRs except US citizens must show PR cards; airline people it seems are not always aware of this nuance.
Thank you. I will use my US passport in all cases except re-entry into the country. I hope that Canada Border Services accepts the expired eCoPR, but I don't know that there's anything I can do to renew it. I see no option online, e-mails don't get answered, and my understanding is that the phone line is for general inquiries only, and they can't look into specific applications.
 

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Thank you. I will use my US passport in all cases except re-entry into the country. I hope that Canada Border Services accepts the expired eCoPR, but I don't know that there's anything I can do to renew it. I see no option online, e-mails don't get answered, and my understanding is that the phone line is for general inquiries only, and they can't look into specific applications.
eCOPRs aren't travel documents.

Now that you are a PR, you need either a PR card or PR Travel Document for travel. The eCOPR is useless.
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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eCOPRs aren't travel documents.

Now that you are a PR, you need either a PR card or PR Travel Document for travel. The eCOPR is useless.
PR cards aren't travel documents either, technically.

Showing an eCOPR or a COPR at the border (port of entry) is not using it as a 'travel document.' It is using it to identify oneself as a PR at the port of entry.

US citizens CAN board a plane to Canada using their passport, the relevant travel document here. And a US passport holder does not need the PRTD or PR card (technically).
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Note: when entering Canada ie to passport control, you MUST enter as a PR ie say you are a PR and show your eCOPR to identify.
Not sure what you mean by this.

If a PR is also a U.S. citizen, there is nothing wrong with handing the border official their U.S. passport, and if the officer asks no questions about the traveler's Canadian status, it is OK for the traveler to not mention their PR status,. Not sure how common this is now, but it was quite common in the past.

This does not mean the border official is not aware the traveler is a PR. They typically if not almost always are.

This does not mean there will not be questions about PR status, or requests for documentation of PR status. Of course the traveler must answer questions truthfully.

And, presenting a U.S. passport and being waived into Canada without addressing PR status does not affect the status the traveler has in Canada. Typically all the PIL officer says is something equivalent to "ok, you can go," meaning the traveler can then proceed into Canada. If the officer was not aware the traveler is a PR, that does not affect the traveler's status. They are still a PR.

All that said, and especially while covid-related screening is still active, the U.S. citizen should anticipate being asked and if asked to be forthcoming about their PR status. They may be asked to show documents like a PR card, expired PR card, or CoPR, but if they do not have these to present the odds are very good this does not delay getting waived through, not by much, if at all (unless there are other reasons for Secondary questioning, such as in regards to RO compliance).
 

armoured

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Not sure what you mean by this.

If a PR is also a U.S. citizen, there is nothing wrong with handing the border official their U.S. passport, and if the officer asks no questions about the traveler's Canadian status, it is OK for the traveler to not mention their PR status,.
I will have to check, believe I have a reference somewhere to effect that a PR or citizen must identify themselves as such at border. If I'm mistaken, then mea culpa. (I know it is a requirement by law in USA and thought I had seen such for Canada)

Note though that I think for most PRs it would be advantageous to present themselves as PRs - because increasingly entries and exits are going to be recorded and hence base evidence supporting their compliance with the RO.
 

dpenabill

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You are still a Canadian PR, no matter what, since PR status doesn't expire in normal circumstances. But without a physical PR card, you need a PRTD to return to Canada. Apply for it only while abroad.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/application-permanent-resident-travel-document.html
U.S. citizens who are Canadian PRs are allowed to board flights to Canada without presenting a PR card or a PR Travel Document.

Any Canadian PR who arrives at a Port-of-Entry (regardless of means of transportation) will be allowed entry upon showing sufficient documentation or evidence to establish their identity and PR status, no particular or specific documents required. A passport (from home country) will generally suffice but this may be only after a wait in Secondary while CBSA verifies the individual's identity and status. Typically goes easier if the PR has some documentation related to PR status, such as a copy of the CoPR or an expired PR card. This is mostly about travelers arriving at a U.S./Canada border crossing since not many PRs travel to Canada via private jets (other than U.S. citizens, and some other particular exceptions, a PR needs a valid PR card or PR TD to board a commercial flight to Canada).

Once they arrive at a PoE, PR-Travelers carrying a visa exempt passport, especially U.S. citizens, may be waived through without any questions asked regarding their PR status. This was actually quite common prior to additional screening related to Covid. That does not mean the border officials are unaware of the traveler's PR status. Ordinarily they will be aware of it once the traveler's Travel Document is scanned into the system.

Meanwhile, currently, and noting that going forward use of the ArriveCAN app may become a permanent part of the border entry process, the ArriveCAN app requires the traveler use the same travel document upon arrival at the PoE as used in completing the ArriveCAN app procedure, and it requires disclosure of the purpose of the trip, including a PR returning to Canada. Misrepresentations made in such transactions are serious, so PRs would be prudent to honestly disclose they are a returning PR.



Note though that I think for most PRs it would be advantageous to present themselves as PRs - because increasingly entries and exits are going to be recorded and hence base evidence supporting their compliance with the RO.
The question may be practically moot given the disclosures that must be made in completing the ArriveCAN app, which is for Covid-related screening but which requires the traveler to use the same Travel Document in the app as they will present at the PoE upon arrival, and requires significantly more information than typically asked of U.S. travelers arriving in Canada prior to covid. Including if the traveler is a PR returning to Canada. While it is getting a good deal of pushback, it appears that ArriveCAN will be revised for long term use, and will undoubtedly facilitate digital screening that is likely to identify Canadians as Canadians regardless of the Travel Document they are using with the ArriveCAN app.

Apart from that, generally the PoE official will see that a Canadian PR presenting a U.S. passport is a Canadian PR, and even if the PIL officer takes no note of that, the entry will almost always (with some exceptions) be recorded to the PR's CBSA travel history. Even twenty years ago U.S. travelers into Canada had a CIC (now IRCC) client number and if the entry was scanned into the system, there was a travel history record of it (just that it was around that time, following increased border controls because of the 9/11 attacks in the U.S., that border officials were beginning to regularly check and scan travel documents for U.S. citizens traveling into Canada . . . prior to that I may have entered Canada well over a hundred times without showing any identification at all, not so much as stating my name).

That is, generally there is no need to present oneself as a Canadian PR for the entry to be collected and recorded in a "client's" CBSA travel history. The system connects bio-data and client number (and if it doesn't, that is likely to trigger a referral to Secondary, where further processing will almost certainly make the connection).

I will have to check, believe I have a reference somewhere to effect that a PR or citizen must identify themselves as such at border. If I'm mistaken, then mea culpa. (I know it is a requirement by law in USA and thought I had seen such for Canada)
Re U.S. Rules:

I do not know U.S. law governing Green Card holders.

When entering the U.S., travelers are almost always asked, in an explicit question regarding each one individually, what their nationality is. If the traveler is a U.S. citizen, the U.S. does not recognize any other citizenship or nationality, so the traveler is obligated to declare their U.S. citizenship. However, I do not know the penalty for declaring another citizenship without disclosing U.S. citizenship. A hassle almost for sure. How much so I do not know. Even if the traveler says, in response to the question about nationality, "I am a U.S. and a Canadian citizen," that can trigger the side of American officials I rather dislike, depending on how anal the officer is (and it seems many are rather so) . . . since, it is not possible, pursuant to American law, to be both a U.S. citizen and a Canadian citizen under their law (dual citizenship, meaning having citizenship in another country in addition to the U.S., is not prohibited in U.S. law, but the citizenship in another country is not legally recognized by U.S. authorities).

Canadian Rules:

Not aware of any statute, regulation, or administrative rule that requires Canadians to specifically identify their Canadian status during a border examination, so long as the traveler otherwise positively and truthfully identifies who they are and presents proper documents when requested.

If asked, of course a PR must be truthful. I have seen a number of IAD decisions including discussions about PRs who have made overt misrepresentations during a border crossing, and now (since 2015 amendments as I recall, or maybe those were in 2012) this is grounds for deeming the individual inadmissible. So it can be serious.

Again, this may be moot going forward, with the expansion of the ArriveCAN app, if it gets implemented for the long term. Since, if asked a question for which a failure to disclose PR status would be misrepresentation, of course the PR must truthfully disclose their Canadian status. Whether the current ArriveCAN app questions (such as requiring an honest statement of the purpose of the trip) effectively make it a misrepresentation to not disclose the traveler is a returning Canadian PR, I am not sure. Not something I'd recommend trying, especially since even without disclosing one's PR status, screening officials can easily see when a traveler is a Canadian PR (with exceptions, of course, as always), so the odds are not disclosing PR status does not hide that the traveler is a PR.
 

Ponga

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Again, this may be moot going forward, with the expansion of the ArriveCAN app, if it gets implemented for the long term. Since, if asked a question for which a failure to disclose PR status would be misrepresentation, of course the PR must truthfully disclose their Canadian status. Whether the current ArriveCAN app questions (such as requiring an honest statement of the purpose of the trip) effectively make it a misrepresentation to not disclose the traveler is a returning Canadian PR, I am not sure. Not something I'd recommend trying, especially since even without disclosing one's PR status, screening officials can easily see when a traveler is a Canadian PR (with exceptions, of course, as always), so the odds are not disclosing PR status does not hide that the traveler is a PR.
Makes me wonder if the person that I spoke to earlier today on the ArriveCAN helpline was wrong...

I explained that my PR card has expired, but that I have a valid U.S. passport. I have spent the majority of the last 5 years in Canada and have no issues with my R.O., just haven't renewed the card because of being `trapped' thanks to this Twilight zone that we're still living through. We had no plans to travel, until my spouse found a great deal on a short getaway abroad.

I asked if my passport would suffice and was told that it would. After checking a recent YT video, I am now concerned because it does ask if the traveler is a Canadian citizen or PR:

Now I'm wondering if I'll be unable to use ArriveCAN at all and will be stuck abroad. Disclosing that I am a PR, but using my passport as my travel document could be a no-go! UG!
 

canuck78

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Makes me wonder if the person that I spoke to earlier today on the ArriveCAN helpline was wrong...

I explained that my PR card has expired, but that I have a valid U.S. passport. I have spent the majority of the last 5 years in Canada and have no issues with my R.O., just haven't renewed the card because of being `trapped' thanks to this Twilight zone that we're still living through. We had no plans to travel, until my spouse found a great deal on a short getaway abroad.

I asked if my passport would suffice and was told that it would. After checking a recent YT video, I am now concerned because it does ask if the traveler is a Canadian citizen or PR:

Now I'm wondering if I'll be unable to use ArriveCAN at all and will be stuck abroad. Disclosing that I am a PR, but using my passport as my travel document could be a no-go! UG!
You can travel to Canada without a PR card because you have a US passport. Would suggest renewing g your PR card. Wait times aren’t that bad.
 

Ponga

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You can travel to Canada without a PR card because you have a US passport. Would suggest renewing g your PR card. Wait times aren’t that bad.
My spouse booked a trip for us for next month. No way that the new card will arrive by then. The real reason for my delay is that being a U.S. citizen likely means that CBSA does NOT have my exit data - vital for the renewal application as I need to detail short trips outside Canada, even though they were supposed to be capturing exit data from ALL travelers (including U.S. and Canadian citizens) by 2019 (land PoE) and 2020 (air) as phase 3 and 4 of the Beyond the Border Initiative between U.S. and Canada. When speaking with a CBSA officer to confirm, I was told "I haven't heard of that"...even though it's on the CBSA website:
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency-agence/reports-rapports/pia-efvp/atip-aiprp/eei-ies-eng.html

An Act to Amend the Customs Act, which received Royal Assent on December 13, 2018, establishes new authorities for the CBSA to collect basic information on all persons leaving Canada. Canada will implement the expansion of the Entry/Exit Initiative to include the exchange of Biographic Entry Data on all travellers who enter either country via a land port of entry, including Canadian citizens, Registered Indians of Canada and U.S. citizens. Canada will also fulfill its commitment to develop a system to collect Biographic Air Exit DataFootnote 3 on all travellers departing Canada directly from air carriers, similar to U.S. processes and systems already in place. These initiatives will be implemented once legislative and regulatory amendments are in force.




Yes, unless the airline suspects that I am a PR (it's happened to others here), but my question/concern is that using a U.S. passport for the ArriveCAN app, while declaring that I am a PR (in the app) could cause a problem in generating the receipt that will be needed. If it requires that a valid PR card be used for a PR (not a passport) I'll be stuck.

I spoke with someone at ArriveCAN who couldn't answer the question and referred me to CBSA. Spoke with CBSA and they couldn't answer the question.
 

dpenabill

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Makes me wonder if the person that I spoke to earlier today on the ArriveCAN helpline was wrong...

I explained that my PR card has expired, but that I have a valid U.S. passport. I have spent the majority of the last 5 years in Canada and have no issues with my R.O., just haven't renewed the card because of being `trapped' thanks to this Twilight zone that we're still living through. We had no plans to travel, until my spouse found a great deal on a short getaway abroad.

I asked if my passport would suffice and was told that it would. After checking a recent YT video, I am now concerned because it does ask if the traveler is a Canadian citizen or PR:
XXXXXX
Now I'm wondering if I'll be unable to use ArriveCAN at all and will be stuck abroad. Disclosing that I am a PR, but using my passport as my travel document could be a no-go! UG!
Since I have a Canadian passport, my personal experience is limited to manually entering its information into the ArriveCan app (for whatever reason it would not accept my effort to upload photo of passport but did for the vaccination receipt).

That said, as I recall it should be relatively straight forward to separately check the option that says the traveler is a returning Permanent Resident but then proceed to input the U.S. passport as your travel document. Remember, the PR card is NOT a travel document.

I am not sure if the app will require you to then input PR card or PR status information, but you should have enough information (client id number for example, in addition to identification/bio-data) to complete the identifying traveler part of the app.


The real reason for my delay is that being a U.S. citizen likely means that CBSA does NOT have my exit data - vital for the renewal application as I need to detail short trips outside Canada, even though they were supposed to be capturing exit data from ALL travelers (including U.S. and Canadian citizens) by 2019 (land PoE) and 2020 (air) as phase 3 and 4 of the Beyond the Border Initiative between U.S. and Canada. When speaking with a CBSA officer to confirm, I was told "I haven't heard of that"...even though it's on the CBSA website:
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency-agence/reports-rapports/pia-efvp/atip-aiprp/eei-ies-eng.html
CBSA travel history should NOT be "vital" for a PR card renewal application. If you mean YOU need it in order to complete the application, errrrr, that's your "bad" (as might be said). A PR's personal record of exits and entries is the ONE BEST source of this information, and if that is incomplete or inaccurate, that's on the PR and no one else.

IRCC does not and will not rely on CBSA travel history records to make a finding that a PR was present in Canada enough days to meet the PR Residency Obligation or the qualifying physical presence to be eligible for a grant of citizenship. They look at CBSA data to check if there is any reason to question the PR's accounting of travel history dates and presence in Canada.

As long as the PR reports their travel history completely and accurately (or even close, with minimal minor mistakes), that's what is needed.

If the PR fails to report their travel history completely and mostly accurately, that can be a problem. How much so depends on other factors, the numbers themselves being a big if not the biggest factor.

Meanwhile, I recently, in another thread, made a rough or crude effort to explain some of the differences between CBSA entry records for an individual compared to the CBSA data regarding an individual's exits from Canada. The latter is NOT collected directly by CBSA, so to the extent CBSA has exit information it is information from sources other than CBSA, such as information obtain from U.S. authorities, of entry into the U.S., for which an inference of exit may be made, or such as information derived from commercial carrier manifests. Omission (failure to capture the record) rates are low, and error rates are probably very low, but these records are not like ATM transactions (and as I discovered a few years ago, even ATMs occasionally malfunction and get it wrong). But the gist of it is that CBSA entry records are easy, not necessarily 100% complete but nearly, and a very high accuracy rate otherwise; and those records are readily accessed by IRCC, and as I understand somewhat recent changes in law, IRCC can now directly access those without consent and without a statement of cause/need (remember, access to personal information maintained by one government body is limited under the Privacy Act, and this includes access by officials within the same department or agency, let alone a different government body). IRCC's access to CBSA information about a particular individual's exit history is DIFFERENT, since the nature and maintenance of that information is DIFFERENT (from entry history records). And, as personal anecdotal reports are still suggesting that CBSA's internal access, and thus an individual's personal access to the exit data, and how complete that information is, continues to be DIFFERENT.

Things are almost certainly evolving toward exit information being nearly as complete and accurate and, importantly, as accessible, as entry information, but for now it comes down to this: both individuals and IRCC can readily obtain copies of CBSA entry into Canada records which have a very high accuracy rate with a high percentage of completeness; but PRs and IRCC can and should anticipate CBSA exit records are not complete.


Yes, unless the airline suspects that I am a PR (it's happened to others here), but my question/concern is that using a U.S. passport for the ArriveCAN app, while declaring that I am a PR (in the app) could cause a problem in generating the receipt that will be needed. If it requires that a valid PR card be used for a PR (not a passport) I'll be stuck.

I spoke with someone at ArriveCAN who couldn't answer the question and referred me to CBSA. Spoke with CBSA and they couldn't answer the question.
Been a long time since I was a PR, so I cannot say much based on personal experience about flying to Canada as a PR.

For U.S. citizens with a U.S. passport there really should be no problem. Remember, these days the airlines are not (not typically anyway) making a personal judgment call or decision about boarding passengers for flights to Canada . . . whether the traveler's documents are sufficient is determined electronically.
 
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Ponga

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CBSA travel history should NOT be "vital" for a PR card renewal application. If you mean YOU need it in order to complete the application, errrrr, that's your "bad" (as might be said). A PR's personal record of exits and entries is the ONE BEST source of this information, and if that is incomplete or inaccurate, that's on the PR and no one else.

IRCC does not and will not rely on CBSA travel history records to make a finding that a PR was present in Canada enough days to meet the PR Residency Obligation or the qualifying physical presence to be eligible for a grant of citizenship. They look at CBSA data to check if there is any reason to question the PR's accounting of travel history dates and presence in Canada.

As long as the PR reports their travel history completely and accurately (or even close, with minimal minor mistakes), that's what is needed.

If the PR fails to report their travel history completely and mostly accurately, that can be a problem. How much so depends on other factors, the numbers themselves being a big if not the biggest factor.
Thank you.

Yup, I understand that it's my "bad" for assuming that my CBSA Travel History request (to then cross reference with my own log of exits/entries) would `fill in the gaps'...especially based on the aforementioned Beyond the Border initiative (phase 3 and 4) regarding a U.S. citizen. Going forward, I will absolutely record my travel [lesson learned], but because we are so close to the border, I'm all but guaranteed to miss a few day drips, or the occasional weekend trip driving across the border. The last trip that I have a record for was nearly 3 years ago (Nov 2019) and it was in fact the last time I/we crossed and returned via a land PoE. Perhaps I can coax my spouse into requesting their entry records into the U.S., which can only help my quandry. We haven't even considered boarding a plane since then...until the sudden "Surprise Trip" that my spouse booked!

FWIW, every exit/entry from/to Canada since obtaining PR (2016) has been with my Canadian spouse/sponsor so, in essence, I can honestly say that I have exceeded my R.O. without hesitation.
 
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Ponga

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Since I have a Canadian passport, my personal experience is limited to manually entering its information into the ArriveCan app (for whatever reason it would not accept my effort to upload photo of passport but did for the vaccination receipt).

That said, as I recall it should be relatively straight forward to separately check the option that says the traveler is a returning Permanent Resident but then proceed to input the U.S. passport as your travel document. Remember, the PR card is NOT a travel document.

I am not sure if the app will require you to then input PR card or PR status information, but you should have enough information (client id number for example, in addition to identification/bio-data) to complete the identifying traveler part of the app.
The ArriveCAN app thinks that a PR card is a travel document:
 
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