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Bill C-6: Senate stage

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Some clarifications:

CANADIANZ said:
The MOST important reason we should support Bill C-6 and that it repeals Bill C-24 which created two classes of citizenship, in simple words: immigrants who acquire citizenship are second class citizens vs. born sole Canadian nationals are first class. It became easier for second class citizens to lose their Canadian Nationality vs. first class who can never lose Nationality.
Without assessing which part of Bill C-6 is "the MOST important," in effect chasing shadows down a rabbit hole, as that involves a rather subjective and abstract analysis, and is more or less an academic exercise prone to comparing peanuts and bolts:

Repealing the provisions which introduced grounds for revoking citizenship based on criminal convictions, for specified crimes, is at least a big part of why Bill C-6 is important. The two classes of citizenship criticism is much overstated but, indeed, these provisions severely compromise the value and integrity of what it means to have citizenship, by introducing what are, in effect, conditions for retaining citizenship (not engage in criminality). The question is not whether some people deserve to lose their citizenship (surely some do), but whether citizenship itself should be conditional. (Compare, for example, imposition of a death penalty: even most of us who oppose a death penalty will acknowledge some people engage in acts so horrendous as to deserve the death penalty, but whether the State should take away the life of a human is about a lot more than whether that human deserves to have his life taken, and in Canada the consensus is no, the State should not take away the life of even those who deserve to lose their life.)

By the way, the two classes of citizenship created by the revocation-for-criminality provisions is NOT the distinction between immigrants who acquire citizenship versus those born sole Canadian nationals, but rather is between those who are solely a Canadian citizen versus those Canadian citizens who also have a right to citizenship in another country. While the latter disproportionately includes naturalized immigrants, it does not include all naturalized immigrants but does include a large number of Canadian citizens who are citizens by birth in Canada. In fact, as I understand it the only person who has actually lost his citizenship under these provisions (my understanding is that the proceedings to revoke citizenship against a number of others was suspended, following the 2015 election, and remains suspended pending the outcome of Bill C-6) was a born in Canada citizen with no citizenship elsewhere (but under the Harper government it was determined he had an alleged right, as I recall, to claim citizenship in Pakistan), and who remains incarcerated in Canada for terrorism crimes.


CANADIANZ said:
As far as 3/5 or 4/6 rule, we all know that during 3/5 rule application processing time was about 2 year for normal applications, which will likely happen as flood of applications are received by CIC as soon as 3/5 rule come into force.
Some increase in processing timelines probably should be anticipated when the 3/5 rule takes effect, since there will be a sudden increase, perhaps a huge increase, in the number of PRs who are eligible for citizenship. The impact of this should be temporary.

There was no previous 3/5 rule.

It is not accurate to say that under the previous 3/4 residency rule application processing time was about 2 years for normal applications. Prior to 2009, and again for applications made after early 2013, the typical routine processing timeline, for most routinely processed applications, was well less than a year. Timelines started to increase beginning in 2009 attendant a broad-based Harper government effort to interdict what was perceived to be widespread fraud in the Canadian immigration system. Relative to the processing of citizenship applications, those efforts peaked in the summer of 2012, in the wake of dramatic changes made in screening citizenship applicants. By mid-2013 the processing timeline for new applications had again dropped considerably (I applied, a 3/4 rule application, early summer 2013 and took the oath in barely eight months, and my timeline was longer than those sitting next to me at the oath ceremony), but overall the system still had a very large backlog of 2011 and 2012 (and some even older) applications with scores of those tangled in the RQ process for very minor technicalities.

In general terms, under the old 3/4 rule, processing time lines gradually went from a range of six to ten months for most applicants, to over a year, in the course of a couple years, then dramatically shot up to nearly two years for those who applied in 2011 and 2012. Otherwise, again under the old 3/4 rule, timelines for the majority of applicants fluctuated between six months and a year.

Reminder: like IRCC now, going back to around 2012, CIC publishing of timelines was based on how long it took to process 80% of routinely processed applications. That timeline was typically nearly twice as long as the timeline for most applicants (better indicated by looking at how long it took for a median number of applications to be processed).

But a huge difference between the old 3/4 rule and what will be the new 3/5 rule, is that the 3/4 rule was a residency requirement versus the physical presence requirement which will apply for the 3/5 rule (as it does currently for the 4/6 rule). The impact of this difference is huge and should not be underestimated.

Not only did scores of PRs apply under the old 3/4 residency rule even though they had NOT been physically present for 1095 days, many were eventually granted citizenship despite being hundreds of days short, some having spent far, far more time abroad than they did in Canada (some cases in which applicants won their appeal involved applicants who spent very little time actually in Canada, and a significant percentage of appeals by CIC, won by CIC, were cases in which CJs had granted approval for citizenship to applicants who had spent no more than five or six hundred days total in Canada, some less than a couple hundred days even). Processing these applications necessarily involved the difficulty of applying qualitative criteria. That demanded more resources, more funding, more work, more time.

Make no mistake, the old 3/4 residency rule was a total mess and Federal Court justices had been railing, some even ranting, about the need to revise the requirements for decades before the Harper government finally did. While the Liberal's Bill C-6 proposed 3/5 rule walks back the more draconian elements in the Conservative Bill C-24 changes, it keeps a strict physical presence requirement. This will avoid many of the pitfalls that besieged the process under the old 3/4 residency rule while at the same time allow what should be sufficient flexibility for new immigrants pursuing a path to becoming Canadian citizens.

In any event, there should be NO fear that the new 3/5 rule will inordinately increase application processing times, not for long anyway. Which is not to dismiss the possibility that other things can happen which could dramatically affect how long it takes to process routine applications. We live in volatile times, far more so than many seem to appreciate. There are, for example, no reliable roadmaps for even the near future of North America given the Trump ascendancy to our south. Stuff happens, and it sure looks like stuff is going to happen going forward.
 

jsm0085

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PMM said:
Hi


1. What section of the Human Rights Act is being violated. Debate in Parliament and the Senate are a part of democracy,
I didn't say anything about the human rights act. I said C24 goes against the charter - which is accurate. 3 Canadian legal experts gave opinions to that effect to the senate committee. Have you actually been following this process? It seems to me a lot of people are commenting and speculating without actually being aware of what's really happening.
 

dpenabill

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jsm0085 said:
I didn't say anything about the human rights act. I said C24 goes against the charter - which is accurate. 3 Canadian legal experts gave opinions to that effect to the senate committee. Have you actually been following this process? It seems to me a lot of people are commenting and speculating without actually being aware of what's really happening.
The more rhetorical than substantive criticisms by Lorne Waldman and a very few others (lawyers but hardly experts), pushing a Charter argument about both the criminality-grounds for revoking citizenship and the so-called intent-to-reside requirement, have been resoundingly refuted. Those who have, indeed, truly been following these issues are well aware of this. And those who have followed such discussions in this forum should readily be aware that PMM has been a long-term informed participant here, from well before I began participating and following these matters, as well as in other similar forums.

In any event, the Federal Court ruled against such arguments relative to the revocation of citizenship provisions. There is much to quibble about in the decision by (then Federal Court justice, now a member of the Federal Court of Appeal) Justice Rennie, and perhaps the Supreme Court would eventually invalidate these provisions (if those cases went that far, recognizing they probably will not), but that would more likely be about fair process and minimum standards to justify such a severe penalty, than it would be about any intrinsic rights in citizenship . . . Justice Rennie's ruling that citizenship is statutorily created and subject to statutory restriction, probably is correct, meaning the government probably can (without violating the Charter) implement conditional citizenship, but subject to strict criteria and procedural safeguards. (There are strong policy reasons to not do this, but that is for Parliament to decide, but not a viable Charter argument.)


And relative to the so-called intent-to-reside requirement, these arguments never were more than a red herring, unfounded, and a distraction. This aspect has been fully explored and analyzed and explained in depth and at length, here and elsewhere.
 

jsm0085

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dpenabill said:
The more rhetorical than substantive criticisms by Lorne Waldman and a very few others (lawyers but hardly experts), pushing a Charter argument about both the criminality-grounds for revoking citizenship and the so-called intent-to-reside requirement, have been resoundingly refuted. Those who have, indeed, truly been following these issues are well aware of this. And those who have followed such discussions in this forum should readily be aware that PMM has been a long-term informed participant here, from well before I began participating and following these matters, as well as in other similar forums.

In any event, the Federal Court ruled against such arguments relative to the revocation of citizenship provisions. There is much to quibble about in the decision by (then Federal Court justice, now a member of the Federal Court of Appeal) Justice Rennie, and perhaps the Supreme Court would eventually invalidate these provisions (if those cases went that far, recognizing they probably will not), but that would more likely be about fair process and minimum standards to justify such a severe penalty, than it would be about any intrinsic rights in citizenship . . . Justice Rennie's ruling that citizenship is statutorily created and subject to statutory restriction, probably is correct, meaning the government probably can (without violating the Charter) implement conditional citizenship, but subject to strict criteria and procedural safeguards. (There are strong policy reasons to not do this, but that is for Parliament to decide, but not a viable Charter argument.)


And relative to the so-called intent-to-reside requirement, these arguments never were more than a red herring, unfounded, and a distraction. This aspect has been fully explored and analyzed and explained in depth and at length, here and elsewhere.
I'd argue that the Quebec bar and a UoT law professor are in fact experts. And, FYI, I'm aware of PMM's long term history on the forum but to be clear, it doesn't change my question or position on this matter.
 

quasar81

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Looking at lack of unity among liberals, and plenty of unity among CONs- this bill has no chance!!!

ZERO!!

Even government seem to be under no pressure from people and their MPs to pass. Nobody is calling MPs to pass bill. Why would government pursue it.
 

jsm0085

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quasar81 said:
Looking at lack of unity among liberals, and plenty of unity among CONs- this bill has no chance!!!

ZERO!!

Even government seem to be under no pressure from people and their MPs to pass. Nobody is calling MPs to pass bill. Why would government pursue it.
One of the lib senators just re-tweeted. Let's be united. That was the purpose of my original post.
 

MUFC

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quasar81 said:
Looking at lack of unity among liberals, and plenty of unity among CONs- this bill has no chance!!!

ZERO!!

Even government seem to be under no pressure from people and their MPs to pass. Nobody is calling MPs to pass bill. Why would government pursue it.
As you can see there is severe pressure made on Twitter. Tweets all over the place are exchanged and analyzed here all the time.

Twitter revolution , BTW any recent tweet from a Senator?
Let analyze more Tweets if someone find another new Tweet post it here also.
Twitter communication is a massive pressure don't you think?
 

jsm0085

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MUFC said:
As you can see there is severe pressure made on Twitter. Tweets all over the place are exchanged and analyzed here all the time.

Twitter revolution , BTW any recent tweet from a Senator?
Let analyze more Tweets if someone find another new Tweet post it here also.
Twitter communication is a massive pressure don't you think?
I think twitter allows both sides to see the thoughts and opinions of people C6 direct impacts. So do I think it's better than posting complaints here and dismissing the need for an important amendment? Yes.
 

quasar81

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quasar81 said:
Looking at lack of unity among liberals, and plenty of unity among CONs- this bill has no chance!!!

ZERO!!

Even government seem to be under no pressure from people and their MPs to pass. Nobody is calling MPs to pass bill. Why would government pursue it.
ZERO!! Nada!!

Fact that liberal senator has to "tweet" for unity tells there is nobody interested in pushing the bill seriously.
 

MUFC

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jsm0085 said:
I think twitter allows both sides to see the thoughts and opinions of people C6 direct impacts. So do I think it's better than posting complaints here and dismissing the need for an important amendment? Yes.
Do be clear. I absolutely support the amendment. This Bill needs to be much better than the current form.

Instead using Tweeter don't you think that your idea will have better coverage if shown by a large media?
 

Redfield

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A good news to cheer you up guys. A confirmation that the changes of Bill C-6 will be almost immediatly implemented once the Bill passes. Citizenship and Immigration minister, Ahmed Hussain said in HoC that changes would be implemented very quickly https://openparliament.ca/committees/immigration/42-1/54/ahmed-hussen-45/
 

jsm0085

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When the vote comes the bill will pass. The issue is that conservative senators are playing games simply to delay this - and they know it had a negative impact on the liberals.

This is why I'm encouraging everyone to get involved.
 

Hey

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STANDINGS IN THE SENATE
Conservative Party of Canada 39
Non-affiliated (Independent Senators Group) 35
Liberal Party of Canada 18
Non-affiliated 7
Vacant seats 6 Manitoba (1), New Brunswick (1), Nova Scotia (2), Ontario (1), Saskatchewan (1)
TOTAL

C 6 will not pass unless NA -Ind Sen join libs which is unlikely to happen

End of the story for C 6
 

jsm0085

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Hey said:
STANDINGS IN THE SENATE
Conservative Party of Canada 39
Non-affiliated (Independent Senators Group) 35
Liberal Party of Canada 18
Non-affiliated 7
Vacant seats 6 Manitoba (1), New Brunswick (1), Nova Scotia (2), Ontario (1), Saskatchewan (1)
TOTAL

C 6 will not pass unless NA -Ind Sen join libs which is unlikely to happen

End of the story for C 6
It's not unlikely at all. Independents will join libs.