Would this count as Work Experience?

[Vitesze]

Hi everyone,

Here's my situation: In October, 2017 I officially received an MSc degree from an European university. However, I earned part of my credits doing an internship in Canada. I started with this internship in May, 2017, which was extended into full-time employment in August, 2017 (for the record; if you wonder how I got my degree two months later, it had to do with submitting several reports and documents before the university officially approved my internship credits).

The internship was paid (but slightly less than minimum wage), and on the contract it stated the same job title I have now. Furthermore, I feel that the tasks and duties during this internship still very largely resemble my current ones, but this may be hard to prove. The tasks and duties very much relate to my MSc education, and very little to my BSc education, so it would be difficult to argue that this internship should be seen as a professional extension of my BSc degree

Now my question is this: I would like to create a profile for the Express Entry category as soon as I have 1 year of Canadian work experience. However, what date would the IRCC use to start counting from? April when I started my internship in Canada, August when I officially got full-time employed, or October when my MSc degree was officially approved by the national authorities?

Just to be clear: my internship was done on a work permit, which remains valid until April, 2019.

 

[jes_ON]

Hi everyone,

Here's my situation: In October, 2017 I officially received an MSc degree from an European university. However, I earned part of my credits doing an internship in Canada. I started with this internship in May, 2017, which was extended into full-time employment in August, 2017 (for the record; if you wonder how I got my degree two months later, it had to do with submitting several reports and documents before the university officially approved my internship credits).

The internship was paid (but slightly less than minimum wage), and on the contract it stated the same job title I have now. Furthermore, I feel that the tasks and duties during this internship still very largely resemble my current ones, but this may be hard to prove. The tasks and duties very much relate to my MSc education, and very little to my BSc education, so it would be difficult to argue that this internship should be seen as a professional extension of my BSc degree

Now my question is this: I would like to create a profile for the Express Entry category as soon as I have 1 year of Canadian work experience. However, what date would the IRCC use to start counting from? April when I started my internship in Canada, August when I officially got full-time employed, or October when my MSc degree was officially approved by the national authorities?

Just to be clear: my internship was done on a work permit, which remains valid until April, 2019.

If the internship in Canada was paid and under a work permit, then it counts as work experience. Doesn't matter if you were still enrolled at a foreign university. So it sounds like you can count your experience starting from May XX, 2017, as long as it was a skilled NOC. (In the first paragraph, you say you started working May 2017, later you say you started in April - which is is?)

30 or more hours per week is "full time" and less than 30 hours per week is part-time. Both count, but part-time work experience must be pro-rated.

Can you specify the type of work permit you have?

 

[Vitesze]

If the internship in Canada was paid and under a work permit, then it counts as work experience. Doesn't matter if you were still enrolled at a foreign university. So it sounds like you can count your experience starting from May XX, 2017, as long as it was a skilled NOC. (In the first paragraph, you say you started working May 2017, later you say you started in April - which is is?)

30 or more hours per week is "full time" and less than 30 hours per week is part-time. Both count, but part-time work experience must be pro-rated.

Can you specify the type of work permit you have?

Thanks for your reply!

I looked around regarding this before, and I felt that it's a bit of a grey area; some people mentioned the IRCC acknowledged it as work experience, but others said they would only do so if you at least get paid minimum wage for it? My payment was $1000 CAD/month, and registered as a ''honorarium'', so I didn't technically pay any taxes over it yet (but probably will have to do so when I file my taxes). Hence my confusion whether the IRCC is going to consider this as a paid-job.

Sorry I meant May. In April I entered the country, but May is when I started the internship so ithat's my bad there.

For the full length of my internship/employment so far I have been working 40hrs/week, so that condition will be met. The NOC code is 2255, which should be NOC B and eligible for qualifying as skilled work experience (on another note, I'm very puzzled why they wouldn't classify this as NOC A, as most of the things mentioned for 2255 definitely require some high-level education)

The initial work permit is a Working Holiday Visa (open work permit, no restrictions on this regarding number of hours), which is valid for 1 year until April, 2018. I already have received my approval letter for a Young Professionals visa (restricted permit, only valid for work at my current employer for the designated job), which when issued is going to be valid until April, 2019.

 

[jes_ON]

Thanks for your reply!

I looked around regarding this before, and I felt that it's a bit of a grey area; some people mentioned the IRCC acknowledged it as work experience, but others said they would only do so if you at least get paid minimum wage for it? My payment was $1000 CAD/month, and registered as a ''honorarium'', so I didn't technically pay any taxes over it yet (but probably will have to do so when I file my taxes).

Sadly, yes, you will : (

Hence my confusion whether the IRCC is going to consider this as a paid-job.

Who paid the honorarium, your current employer?

This is a bit of a grey area, I've seen some approved, but I can't say for certain that will be true for you.

For the full length of my internship/employment so far I have been working 40hrs/week, so that condition will be met. The NOC code is 2255, which should be NOC B and eligible for qualifying as skilled work experience

The initial work permit is a Working Holiday Visa (open work permit, no restrictions on this regarding number of hours), which is valid for 1 year until April, 2018. I already have received my approval letter for a Young Professionals visa (restricted permit, only valid for work at my current employer for the designated job), which when issued is going to be valid until April, 2019.

I think the experience will count from May 2017, but if you wanted to be 100% sure before you apply, you could wait until August XX, 2018, to have one year after you became a regular employee.

 

[Vitesze]

Yes, my employer paid this honorarium by writing me a cheque at the end of each month. But I'm sure they have this registered in their database, and could provide evidence to the IRCC if they'd ever ask for proof that I indeed was getting paid.

Is there any harm in trying to apply under the Canadian Working Experience category, and getting rejected? If I claim to have 1 year of experience but the IRCC would argue I only have 8 months at that point, would I get in trouble and mess up my chances in the future because I provided them false info?

If anything, I could always just call the IRCC and explain the situation to them, and see how they view it.

 

[jes_ON]

Yes, my employer paid this honorarium by writing me a cheque at the end of each month. But I'm sure they have this registered in their database, and could provide evidence to the IRCC if they'd ever ask for proof that I indeed was getting paid.

They will have to provide tax documents, most likely you will get a T4A for this, and have to pay the taxes yourself.

Is there any harm in trying to apply under the Canadian Working Experience category, and getting rejected?

No real harm, other than losing the application fee.

If I claim to have 1 year of experience but the IRCC would argue I only have 8 months at that point, would I get in trouble and mess up my chances in the future because I provided them false info?

No, you would not be providing false info. And a refusal would not have any impact, other than you might have to wait for the refusal before you could re-apply (hard to say how long that would take).

If anything, I could always just call the IRCC and explain the situation to them, and see how they view it.
You can try, but the call centre staff are not very well trained and their responses are not always reliable.

 

[Vitesze]

Ok thanks a lot for your help, it's very useful! Personally, what would you do? Do you feel the odds of this experience getting approved are considerable? I don't mind the application fee so much, but if I do want to apply in May already I will have to start preparing documents and take the language tests etc. not so long from now

 

[jes_ON]

Ok thanks a lot for your help, it's very useful! Personally, what would you do? Do you feel the odds of this experience getting approved are considerable? I don't mind the application fee so much, but if I do want to apply in May already I will have to start preparing documents and take the language tests etc. not so long from now

AFAIK I think it counts, so I would probably take the chance. The language test and ECA will be valid for some time, so there's no harm in getting those out of the way. (ECA is not mandatory for CEC experience, but it will earn you points for that master's degree...)

 

[Vitesze]

AFAIK I think it counts, so I would probably take the chance. The language test and ECA will be valid for some time, so there's no harm in getting those out of the way. (ECA is not mandatory for CEC experience, but it will earn you points for that master's degree...)

Oh yeah, for sure the points are important. Even though I believe looking at their sheet I should get to around 460 pts. or so (510 with job offer; I heard you dpnt need the LMIA for this if you worked for the same employer for at least 1 year already in the same position), it doesn't hurt to get the highest possible

Thanks a lot, I'll definitrly try my luck on this one !

 

[Vitesze]

AFAIK I think it counts, so I would probably take the chance. The language test and ECA will be valid for some time, so there's no harm in getting those out of the way. (ECA is not mandatory for CEC experience, but it will earn you points for that master's degree...)

I just spoke with an Immigration consultant, and they mentioned to me that:

- Any work experience gained prior to graduation from university would not count as work experience
- LMIA is required for receiving points from a job offer, even if you've been working for 1+ year (I read somewhere after 1 year you don't need the LMIA anymore, but I was wrong)

Sounds to me like although some people are successful at getting that work experience counted, it doesn't seem to be normal practice and consultants prefer to steer away from it?

 

[scylla]

I just spoke with an Immigration consultant, and they mentioned to me that:

- Any work experience gained prior to graduation from university would not count as work experience

This only applies if your studies were completed in Canada. You graduated from a university in Europe.

 

[Vitesze]

This only applies if your studies were completed in Canada. You graduated from a university in Europe.

Yes and I made it very clear to the consultant I obtained an MSc degree from my European university, but that I have been living in Canada since April as the internship counted for my final degree credits. Internship was full-time, paid (bit less than min. wage), had the same job title and same responsibilities/duties as I have now.

But his reply was firm: the Immigration Services would find an overlap in the dates that I enter for my degree and work experience, and then conclude that the internship experience wouldn't be classified as such. It's funny a bit though, as I literally haven't even gone back to Europe after I arrived here, so there's no added college experience I obtained after April anyway.

Like I said, maybe it's a grey area with unclear rules so consultants like these rather steer clear from it? This is confusing though; the way he explained it would invalidate work experience for a lot of people who attend college (e.g. evenings) besides work.

EDIT: On the CIC website it states:

''Co-op terms and apprenticeships completed before graduating do not count as skilled work experience. They are considered part of an educational program. The work experience you can use to apply for the Canadian Experience Class must not have been gained while studying full time on a student permit (for example, experience gained while on a co-op work term).''

But I have acquired the internship experience while on an open work permit, not a student permit. It also wasn't a co-op term or apprenticeship, but considered an internship by our European University. I'm considering reaching out to a different consultant and see what they think, or just go ahead and fill in my profile myself and see if I can enter the EE pool with it

 

[Vitesze]

Can someone also confirm whether I'm eligible to receive points for a job offer? On the IRCC website it is stated:

For Express Entry, your employer doesn’t need an LMIA if you:

1. have been working full-time for the employer on your work permit for at least one year (or an equal amount of part-time work)
2. have a valid job offer, and
3. have a valid work permit that is exempt from an LMIA under
   • an international agreement
   • a federal-provincial agreement or
   • the “Canadian interests” category

Once I have worked on for 12 months on my Working Holiday + Young Professionals Visa (which are exempt from LMIA), and I have an offer of employment, then this should mean my employer doesn't need an LMIA anymore?

The Immigration consultant specifically mentioned that it is always required to receive an LMIA first if you want to receive points in the EE for a job offer.

 

[jes_ON]

Yes and I made it very clear to the consultant I obtained an MSc degree from my European university, but that I have been living in Canada since April as the internship counted for my final degree credits. Internship was full-time, paid (bit less than min. wage), had the same job title and same responsibilities/duties as I have now.

If the work experience is counted as part of your education program, that could invalidate it. But since you do not have to provide transcripts for non-Canadian studies, I am not sure how a VO would know this.

But his reply was firm: the Immigration Services would find an overlap in the dates that I enter for my degree and work experience, and then conclude that the internship experience wouldn't be classified as such.

It is definitely a grey area, there are 2 competing rules, and he is giving is best opinion. I think it is good that he is being cautious about this (better than saying, "Oh yeah, it won't be a problem" and then you end up refused, right?)

the way he explained it would invalidate work experience for a lot of people who attend college (e.g. evenings) besides work.
That would be incorrect, since the rule specifically applies to full-time study in Canada.

See this one as well -
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=855&top=6

But I have acquired the internship experience while on an open work permit, not a student permit.
This is what makes it eligible, in my opinion.

I'm considering reaching out to a different consultant and see what they think,
Second opinion wouldn't hurt, but basically it will end up being a judgment call by the VO - you have two competing rules, which one will the VO apply? (That's If they even know the internship was part of your study program).

or just go ahead and fill in my profile myself and see if I can enter the EE pool with it
This does not really tell you much, lots of people enter the pool who are later refused. But certainly, it's a first step : )

It depends on how much comfort you have with uncertainty. If you get the ITA you can decide to apply, knowing there's a chance of refusal (that's actually true of everyone). You can re-apply any time. Or you can just wait until you have a full year of non-internship work experience.

 

[Vitesze]

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I think I will simply go ahead with this, and if I do get refused, I will just re-apply once it has been 1 year since I received my degree.

What about the LMIA? To me the IRCC website would agree that if you have worked for a full year for an employer in Canada (in a NOC 0,A,B position), still have a valid LMIA-exempt work permit (like the IEC visas?) and receive a job offer, that this should not require someone to have an LMIA but still get the points for it?

Also, if anything, what if I simply do not specify that the internship was counting towards my degree credits (not lying, just mentioning I did an internship)? From your reply it doesn't seem as if they neccessarily are going to inquire about it