+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

why offering immigration to forigen nationals when they alread have skilledworkr

mead

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
4,107
167
Visa Office......
delhi
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
27-11-2012
Doc's Request.
28-11-2012
IELTS Request
n/a
Med's Request
n/a
Med's Done....
n/a
VISA ISSUED...
6-12-2012
kateg said:
As someone who wanted to immigrate, I worked to get my skillset and work history as competitive as possible. I also did what it took to find an employer who was qualified for an LMIA, and helping him learn what was needed to qualify and apply for one.

It's not enough to work hard, it requires working hard in a manner that will bring success. I can work really hard doing an engine rebuild on my car, but it won't accomplish anything if it's out of gas and the battery is dead.

My goal was to immigrate to Canada. If that took getting a Canadian Ph.D, I would have done that. If it required starting a Canadian business, I was ready to do that. I've started learning French. If it required switching careers, I would have done that too.

I was a full-time student, a full-time worker (telecommute for another country, which does not require a work permit), and a full-time worker (under a LMIA). I was working 110+ hours a week doing what it took to immigrate to Canada. I've spent hundreds of hours reviewing immigration decisions, ministerial instructions, legislation, and hundreds more reading through all that this forum has to offer. I've also spent time networking with those in the immigration and business development industry - consultants, as well as federal and provincial authorities.
so ur changing ur definition of hard work to smart/crook work? ur saying that u sucked up to ur employer to get LMIA? but will everyone get LMIA if there employers agree? u got lucky selecting ur profession as when u selected ur profession u were not in canada nor there was express entry. since ur profession was special ur LMIA was approved. no hard work there just dumb luck.
ur not special just lucky. everyone worked hard I did my masters and worked to pay for it. worked 12 hrs a day to pay tuition. ye so ur saying u just have a good knowledge of immigration system that u manipulated it?
 

mead

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
4,107
167
Visa Office......
delhi
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
27-11-2012
Doc's Request.
28-11-2012
IELTS Request
n/a
Med's Request
n/a
Med's Done....
n/a
VISA ISSUED...
6-12-2012
That's a fair point. In the States, that will get you thrown in prison. It would be harder to detect that, and is a reason to give less weight to foreign credentials. CIC doesn't want to be seen as racist, though.
yes i was in states did my masters there .....I worked in fast food 12 hrs a day to complete my education ..my mistake i moved here now life is uncertain may get kicked out . then back to a country where bribery is normal business as usual. My life is here it will all be uprooted.

I can see your point there. Do you think that there should be a list of "approved" countries for education and work experience, with Canada included? That way, someone educated in Germany, or the US, or Canada gets the points, but people from less trustworthy countries don't?
no i think there should be a difference between canadian education and life in canada as it gives canada much more than someone outside. dont keep us in the same pool.

One possibility would be to accept provincial qualifications after exams, like they do for some fields now. You take an approved comprehensive exam in order to get the points, one that's run by a trustworthy organization. People from certain countries can use their existing credentials, as they come from places with higher standards.

Unfortunately, when I see stories like this, or images like this, I can't help but get angry. I've spent decades of my life working hard to get where I am, and it bothers me to no end when someone lies so they can come here and make things worse.
same here but it is the fact of the situation. I worked my ass off to pay my tuition and living . when hard working people dont get PR thats what bothers me.
 

kateg

Hero Member
Aug 26, 2014
918
87
123
British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-05-2015
Nomination.....
N/A
AOR Received.
01-05-2015
IELTS Request
05-05-2015
File Transfer...
N/A
Med's Request
N/A
Med's Done....
16-04-2015
Interview........
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A
LANDED..........
27-08-2015
"mead" said:
please explain what did u work on to meet the bar?
I started working on immigrating to Canada roughly 10 years ago. The bar has been changed on numerous occasions, but like many immigrants I had to get things in order in my home country before I could come.

I started building wealth, assets. I worked on my education, my language, my connections, studying the law. I got married to a spouse who also wanted to immigrate, and we worked to get the points. She had not finished her education, so I convinced the school to readmit her, and I supported her for years, flying thousands of miles every couple weeks so that I could keep my job and be there to help her.

so now ur saying we chose wrong occupation and u selected the right one? also r u saying our history is not right we r criminals?
That's not what I'm saying at all. My NOC filled up last year (2174) - one could argue that I didn't choose right. When that happened, I started working on retraining for other NOCs, and started putting together what was needed to get a LMIA. If my NOC were something different, I might have to go to northern Alberta to find a LMIA-capable employer, but if that were so I would go.

As for the criminal comment, I'm not saying anyone is criminals. What I am saying is that there are correlations between criminality and other factors, such as lack of education. People who are desperate are more likely to end up criminals, so if one wants to avoid criminality, consideration should be given to ensuring that the immigrants that come do not end up desperate. This can be done on both the selection side (pick people who can take care of themselves), as well as on the arrival side (have programs to help people avoid being desperate).

Does that make sense?

there can be various indicators but i dont see anyone in express entry other than language proficiency.
I don't need a diploma or degree for work. For me, attending school (both in Canada and in my former country) was purely about immigration. Canada wanted people with degrees, so I did what it took to be one of those people. Canada wants people with French skills, so I work to be one of those people. Canada changed the rules in 2015 and said "we want people who won't take Canadian jobs", so I did what it took to be one of those people.

there is nothing one can do if their profession is not something that canada wants at this point in time.. they r out of luck. no hard work there
The LMIA system gives 600 points to anyone in a NOC 0, A, or B who can find an employer that is unable to hire a Canadian and meets the requirements in terms of company size and wage. There is also a skilled trades option.

There are those who have jobs that don't qualify, and for them, there is still hard work to be had. That hard work needs to be to learn a new profession if they want to immigrate. It's not the job of Canada to be good for the immigrant, it's the job of the immigrant to be good for Canada. For them, it takes even more hard work to come to Canada.

thats exactly what it is mad system built by someone who doesnt know how third world countries work. there will be consultancies poping in third world countries to do just that fake everything.
The conservatives have been changing rules to make things harder to fake, with logging of trips to the US, a new system that requires travel authorization, and requiring four years of physical presence for Citizenship. They have also added a system that includes some checks on background and work history (instead of the old system of "graduate, get PR". It wouldn't surprise me if more things to deter fraud happen should they win the election.

yes ur lucky . I dont know what ur situation is but do point out what is wrong with us? since u think we dont measure up to the system
I wish tone would come out better on the internet. I care greatly about Canada, and want it to be the best. I want the people who come here to be the best, and want to help people be the best. When I talk about flaws in people, myself included, it's because I want to live in a world where people work to be the best they can be.

We're all lucky in some ways and unlucky in others. Each of us has access to the internet, the biggest collection of knowledge and education available for free (or rather cheaply) in all of human history. Each of us has more ability to learn, to discover, to grow, and to build than our predecessors. We have access to a worldwide market where it's possible to sell our services to people all over the planet. I wrote and sold software online at age 12 because on the internet, nobody has to judge you by age, or race, by caste, or by sex. You truly have the ability to define who you are and make your own destiny.

dont know may be we dont know ur background. r u a cook as I have seen a cook get ITA and a nurse struggling for 400 points. so u saying cooks r needed more than nurses in canada and will succeed more because the system say so?
In some ways, yes. There are cooks who are needed sometimes, and nurses who aren't, sometimes. The system is rational, but it's not applied perfectly. As you say, people cheat - did the cook perhaps have fake experience while the nurse was honest?
 

Hansdza

Hero Member
Mar 7, 2013
423
38
Canada
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Dear Mr. Kateg..

Could you please kindly answer my question in page 4. I have a serious difficulty to rank those workers based on their quality... Please help me..
 

mead

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
4,107
167
Visa Office......
delhi
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
27-11-2012
Doc's Request.
28-11-2012
IELTS Request
n/a
Med's Request
n/a
Med's Done....
n/a
VISA ISSUED...
6-12-2012
I dont want to continue this further just last post. Canada should not put a number on me it feels like Nazi concentration camp where they put numbers on people. those with skill were chose rest shot. its my life at risk so i am going to complain.
 

kateg

Hero Member
Aug 26, 2014
918
87
123
British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-05-2015
Nomination.....
N/A
AOR Received.
01-05-2015
IELTS Request
05-05-2015
File Transfer...
N/A
Med's Request
N/A
Med's Done....
16-04-2015
Interview........
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A
LANDED..........
27-08-2015
mead said:
same here but it is the fact of the situation. I worked my ass off to pay my tuition and living . when hard working people dont get PR thats what bothers me.
I think that may be the root of where you and I differ.

I'm bothered more by people who work hard being hurt by parasites who don't. You're bothered more by people who work hard not getting what you feel they deserve.

Both of us want an ethical system without fraud, but we focus on different aspects.
 

Duskyblue

Hero Member
Jan 23, 2015
339
19
Switzerland
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
4163
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
11.08.15
Doc's Request.
14.08.15
AOR Received.
11.08.15
Passport Req..
18.01.2016
VISA ISSUED...
29.01.2016
@kateg: Thank you for calm and rational answers.

I get pretty sad / upset when I read all these recent posts against outlanders-immigrants (like me), but it's nice to see not everyone thinks that way.
 

kateg

Hero Member
Aug 26, 2014
918
87
123
British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-05-2015
Nomination.....
N/A
AOR Received.
01-05-2015
IELTS Request
05-05-2015
File Transfer...
N/A
Med's Request
N/A
Med's Done....
16-04-2015
Interview........
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A
LANDED..........
27-08-2015
Hansdza said:
The definition of "qualified" immigrant is undoubtedly debatable.... This is my question. from the following can you rank the following options based on its "quality".

A. Worker with LMIA in food processing plant with minimum English and high school diploma
B. Worker in Skilled work field (engineer, doctor, scientist,) with tens of years of experience (hence old) from developed countries and non Canadian exp with perfect english
C. Worker with recent canadian degree but got laid off due to downturn of oil and gas business. Only have 1 year exp with no foreign exp. English moderate
D. Worker with trade certificate in Canada (e.g. electrician) but currently has no job. No Canadian degree, English moderate
E. Worker who just graduated from MIT with honors and currently working in Silicon Valley as Computer Programmer with 1-2 yrs exp, PErfect english but no canadian EXp
F. Worker who work in fast food restaurant as food counter manager and received provincial nominee certificate

I am myself very confused how to rank those workers based on their quality according to EE criteria... Thus "deserve" the right to get ITA and PR based on their quality
I can't help but wonder if there's a bit of snark in that question.

My answer would be that nobody deserves anything, as nobody is entitled to anything, as nobody was promised anything.

That being said, the LMIA would be the highest priority, as (assuming the process was properly followed), he's filling an immediate labour shortage. Depending on whether it's low vs high skilled, a transition plan would be required, so he may be going home in short order anyway.

The issue with Candidate B would be his age. Economically, he's not as likely to contribute as much. It would depend on the specific age, and the specific qualifications.

Personally, I would send candidate C home, but the research CIC has done indicates that ties to Canada (in the form of work experience) do help demonstrate a higher likelihood of economic success. This would be a case where the PNP might be an appropriate venue. Without a job offer, and in a distressed field, there is less reason to admit this person as an immigrant where he will depress wages further.

Person D would depend on whether Canada is experiencing a shortage or glut of electricians. If there's a shortage, he can get an LMIA. If there's not, no reason to depress wages further.

Person E would depend on the labour market. As things stand right now, I assure you he will have no difficulties getting an LMIA. If he just graduated, he may or may not have points for experience - grad students are often paid, so he would have points for both education and foreign work experience.

As an aside, MIT's a neat campus. They have a very well-maintained Dance Dance Revolution machine there. When I was at Harvard, I would bike over and play at the arcade. I miss Cambridge.

Worker F would be admitted based on Provincial needs. That's between them and the candidate.
 

kateg

Hero Member
Aug 26, 2014
918
87
123
British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-05-2015
Nomination.....
N/A
AOR Received.
01-05-2015
IELTS Request
05-05-2015
File Transfer...
N/A
Med's Request
N/A
Med's Done....
16-04-2015
Interview........
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A
LANDED..........
27-08-2015
mead said:
so ur changing ur definition of hard work to smart/crook work?
Could you rephrase the question? There's a difference between working hard and working hard to immigrate. You can work really hard doing the wrong things, and it won't get you anywhere.

ur saying that u sucked up to ur employer to get LMIA?
No. I worked hard to get very, very well qualified in my profession. Then I found an employer who had been trying to hire Canadians for some time, and had been unable to (labour shortage). I made a deal - I would come work for him full-time, if he agreed to get a LMIA. It was a fair deal - legally, I can't work full time for him without a LMIA.

but will everyone get LMIA if there employers agree?
You're looking at it backwards. The question is not whether the employer wants a LMIA, but whether Canada wants the employer to get a LMIA. Does that make sense?

I found a employer that met the requirements to get a LMIA, and then applied to work for them.

u got lucky selecting ur profession as when u selected ur profession u were not in canada nor there was express entry
No, I did not. As you said, there are Cooks that have LMIAs as well. There are people with LMIAs in many, many professions, and if yours is not one that can get a LMIA, then you have the opportunity to work to switch professions. Bookkeepers can work to become accountants, lower level employees can work to become managers, software developers can transition to engineers, etc.

It may not be easy, but it's doable.

. since ur profession was special ur LMIA was approved. no hard work there just dumb luck.
There are plenty of people who are developers who will never get a LMIA. It took multiple attempts and 9 months to get that LMIA, something an employer wouldn't do for an employee they didn't value. Skill, not luck.

ur not special just lucky. everyone worked hard I did my masters and worked to pay for it. worked 12 hrs a day to pay tuition. ye so ur saying u just have a good knowledge of immigration system that u manipulated it?
It's not manipulation when you do what they tell you to and follow the rules. You can go read what is required for a LMIA just as easily as I can. If you don't have enough points without a LMIA, and you go work for an employer who is unwilling (or unable) to get a LMIA, that's your decision, not mine. I knew what I wanted, so I did what it took to qualify.
 

Hansdza

Hero Member
Mar 7, 2013
423
38
Canada
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Thank you for your reply.. It helps a bit.. I was just wondering if all of them create express entry profile right now who will have the highest likelihood to get an ITA..in the next round.. In other word, who has the highest "quality" so that Citizenship and Immigration Canada is pleased to invite such workers to apply as permanent resident based on their current situation

Don't worry no snark no nothing. I am just trying so hard to understand the definition of "quality" per EE system..

Anyway.. I'll keep that as my homework then...
 

kateg

Hero Member
Aug 26, 2014
918
87
123
British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-05-2015
Nomination.....
N/A
AOR Received.
01-05-2015
IELTS Request
05-05-2015
File Transfer...
N/A
Med's Request
N/A
Med's Done....
16-04-2015
Interview........
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A
LANDED..........
27-08-2015
mead said:
Canada should not put a number on me it feels like Nazi concentration camp where they put numbers on people. those with skill were chose rest shot.
... and Godwin's law strikes again.

There are billions of people on the planet. Canada can't let everyone in. They can either close the borders, or they can be selective. They have a scoring system to help them select, as otherwise it's just "who applies first", or "whoever the agent chooses".

There's a big difference between them choosing who they give a gift to, and choosing who they take a life from. For those who are hurt by their home countries, it's the home country and their own people hurting them, not Canada.
 

APSTAR

Star Member
Jan 20, 2014
61
0
Aquarian25 said:
I totally disagree with your viewpoint. As if people in Canada are more deserving than people living across the world. It's an equal opportunity system, my friend. From your timeline, it clearly shows that you are also not a born Canadian. You might have come to Canada for studies, with a thinking of having yourself settled in Canada. Now put yourself in the same shoe as what you are commenting now. Had there been such a process, you would never have gotten a Canadian PR.

It does not matter if foreign nationals are coming directly (with foreign exp) or bridging their study to get a Canadian PR. It's a fair system and you can't say Canada does not need more people. I could say may be the Software engineers in Canada right now, are not matching the expectations of the employers, that is why they need good quality software engineers from other countries.

People commenting that Canada should not promote immigration should introspect that they have immigrated to Canada as well in the past and now can not complain about the situation.
totally agree with you....

+2
 

kateg

Hero Member
Aug 26, 2014
918
87
123
British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-05-2015
Nomination.....
N/A
AOR Received.
01-05-2015
IELTS Request
05-05-2015
File Transfer...
N/A
Med's Request
N/A
Med's Done....
16-04-2015
Interview........
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A
LANDED..........
27-08-2015
Duskyblue said:
@ kateg: Thank you for calm and rational answers.

I get pretty sad / upset when I read all these recent posts against outlanders-immigrants (like me), but it's nice to see not everyone thinks that way.
I'm on the Autism spectrum, which can make emotional communication difficult. The goal of my posts is not to attack anyone, but to understand why the system is what it is, and how we can all be better for it. I read posts of immigrants who come here and struggle, and yet others come here and thrive - it seems a tragedy for someone to uproot their life, spend their life savings, get here, and not thrive in their new life.

I love Canada, and the people in it. I want to protect it, and to welcome those who make it better. Like many here, I've seen cases of fraud and abuse, and it is saddening.

I don't know if any of my posts were the ones you saw as "anti-immigrant" - it can be difficult at times to express the desire to bring in the good, but leave out those who defraud or abuse the system, or who would bring the worst of their home countries. If so, it was not my intent to hurt anyone.
 

kateg

Hero Member
Aug 26, 2014
918
87
123
British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
01-05-2015
Nomination.....
N/A
AOR Received.
01-05-2015
IELTS Request
05-05-2015
File Transfer...
N/A
Med's Request
N/A
Med's Done....
16-04-2015
Interview........
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A
LANDED..........
27-08-2015
Hansdza said:
Thank you for your reply.. It helps a bit.. I was just wondering if all of them create express entry profile right now who will have the highest likelihood to get an ITA..in the next round.. In other word, who has the highest "quality" so that Citizenship and Immigration Canada is pleased to invite such workers to apply as permanent resident based on their current situation

Don't worry no snark no nothing. I am just trying so hard to understand the definition of "quality" per EE system..

Anyway.. I'll keep that as my homework then...
As far as EE is concerned, the "quality" is based on the CRS score:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/express-entry/grid-crs.asp

You can see how much each factor contributes, and what the requirements are. The highest two are LMIA and PNP. For a LMIA, the employer has demonstrated a labour shortage (unless they cheat). For the PNP, the province gets to decide what their needs are, and Canada defers to their judgement.

After that, language is the highest factor. It's a full 150 points (or 160 with a spouse), plus they factor language proficiency into education and foreign work experience points. They also set a minimum cutoff.

They have found that people who don't communicate well are much less likely to succeed long-term, economically speaking. After that, it's age (if you're near-retirement, you will have a much shorter working life), followed by Canadian work experience.
 

Hansdza

Hero Member
Mar 7, 2013
423
38
Canada
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Interesting

so can I simplify like this

LMIA = 600 points

So..

A Food processor plant NOC B + LMIA age 25 english clb 5 single 2 yrs exp overseas NOC B > 800----> Higher Quality
B Computer programmer from MIT singe non LMIA age 25 2 years exp in google = 416 ----> Lesser quality

So my conclusion is A>B in terms of
1. CRS/Quality
2. Benefit to Canada

Please correct me if I am wrong

I am really sorry my math is terrible, I guess I am not qualified as well to immigrate to Canada :D