Whether a family with children can enter Canada with expired PR Cards through US

[Canvan003]

+1 for you for making me realise that my case was not the worst one.

 

[david1697]

+1 for you for making me realise that my case was not the worst one.

Give me another +1 for adding that it was irrelevant to OP.

 

[Canvan003]

Its irrelevant.

 

[Sydkadra]

Dear David and Canvan
Thank you for your detailed trail of posts which at some times became scary and contrary to the general belief that the land borders and its officers are more lenient and friendly and than their colleagues in the airport who may be more inquisitive.
It was encouraging when Canvan said that he moved in and out of Canadian land border with only COPR and without much questioning and rather casual inquiry about the submitting of the application form for the renewal of the PR Card.
David's narrative is more scary which says that there is formidable chance of second review by superiors to know more about as the family just carry COPR and the recently expired ( June 2015) PR Cards.
Reading all these posts is for sure that it will not a smooth ride and the family to be fully prepared for facing any eventuality which may even being reported. But as said in many posts earlier, any PR even if reported can not only enter Canada but can appeal the Clause 44 reporting in the court and can get temporary PR Cards until the case is decided.
Another thing I wan to know that which bridge is good for car driving as the family never crossed the Canadian border in car. I heard the Lewiston-Queenston bridge is more vehicle friendly as it don't allow pedestrian crossing whereas the Rainbow bridge is more pedestrian friendly to cross over.
I still solicit more posts from members who experienced similar situation and entered Canada hassle free, in the meantime all my gratitude to all who have spent their in writing their own experiences and suggested the best way to crossover. It was also informative that the Canadian DL will be acceptable by car rental companies in US and they don't insist on the International Driving Permit.

Thanks

 

[Msafiri]

Dear Leon, Scylla, Msafiri and other experts

In continuation of the above questions, my question is
1. Whether a non-Visa exempt Passport Holder Canadian PR who holds valid Ontario Driver's License can hire rent a car in US and drive without the need of International Driver's Permit, if IDP is must where it can be obtained as they are traveling from the home country to US and then US to Canada in the rental car.

2. What documents in US required by Car Rentals to issue a Car to Canadian PR holding Valid DL? Whether they want to see the Citizenship Proof or want to see the PR Card and what if the PR Cards are expired.

Please provide the answer in details

Thanks

You have to do some leg work and contact the relevant rental company. You may find each has its own rules for what they want from the renter. Typically a Canadian DL is enough since the car rental agency isn't focused on your immigration status. They are not CBP/CBSA etc - they just want the cars of the lot since that's generating cash flow. If they have a concern about the vehicle they just block of a 'substantial' amount on your credit card and if that's not enough well insurance will take care of it. Go with a major rental set up say the airport not a small mom and pop franchise. The Majors see one way rentals daily. You may even get an ON plated rental to take back that had been previously driven to the US as a one way from ON.

 

[Sydkadra]

Dear Msafiri
Thank you very much for elaborating the car rental which is more informative. You guys (Msafiri, Leon, Scylla and all other contributors) are awsome and helpful which is why this forum rocks which is providing all information needed for all kinds of topics relating to Canadian Immigration.
Cheers

 

[Msafiri]

In regards to border crossing experiences it has as been mentioned really down to luck and who you find on the day. One PR may have no issues the next PR may have a referral to Secondary Inspection and get taken through a major grilling. It also depends on the PRs individual persona - some people get stressed out over even minor situations some don't sweat anything. Ditto for the CBSA agent - some are sticklers, some are more compassionate, some are more naive, some are hard nosed, others just do their job. If CBSA are not professional and courteous in handling your entry then there is a complaints procedure. We should acknowledge that theirs is not always an easy job.

The indisputable fact is that if CBSA carried out RO reviews at the border on every single PR there would be a grid lock at customs. Their focus typically is on visitors and determining if they are bona fide and what their true intentions are for being in Canada. So CBSA have to filter out and target specific PRs based on appropriate criteria the easiest being 'no/expired PR Card' but that doesn't mean you are in breach. Typically visit visa exempt PRs especially if about to oath really have no need for a valid PR Card for travel purposes if in RO compliance with buffer. The IRPA gives the CBSA agents latitude in considering H&C circumstances when a PR appears at a POE. There is a general guideline and its known to the public at large with common sense expected to prevail. Knowing that as a PR means I can get into Canada (Charter Right) and have 3 opportunities to 'save' my PR would for me be good enough odds not to lose too much sleep over this. (1 pass on breach, win appeal at IAD, win appeal at FC).

At at all times its best to take the view that the PR has no control over who they meet at the border but they have control over their RO!

 

[deweysmith]

Dear Msafiri
Thank you very much for replying in details to all the questions and it will be helpful for the family to be fully prepared in line with your answers it is really appreciated. Another question is that they said they contacted AVIS on phone to check whether they can rent a one way rental to Canada, they replied it is possible but for the compact saloon cars only but not for SUV. My question is whether there is any restriction or it will be difficult for the rental company to bring back the SUV than the Saloon Car back to US.
Whether we can get
1- Any Canadian Private SUV vehicle operated by private person who can provide the transport services at Buffalo for drop off at For Eerie for a price and whether it will be objected by CBSA.
2- Is it easy to get rental of all kinds of vehicles for one way travel as you said it is more common practice there and most of the big rental companies are aware of such requirements by the PR.

Thank you and for all who will provide their own personal experiences.

Regards

SydKadra

I will add to the rental car, the one-way rental is not unusual at ALL. It will be more expensive because they have to cover costs in case they have to pay an employee to travel to bring the car back to the USA. They also only allow it on their smaller vehicles because are rented much more frequently than larger vehicles, so the likelihood of the car ending up on another one-way rental back into the USA is much higher, so they don't have to pay an employee bring it back.

Renting from a US company with a valid Canadian driver license is also totally allowed with most companies, no IDP is necessary. Check the fin print. Most only require it if the permit is in a language other than English or French. They won't care if you have status in Canada, as long as the driver license is valid and unexpired.

 

[Sydkadra]

Dear Msafiri, Leon, Scylla all other experts.

In continuation with the above thread, what difference will be there for PR who travels after March 2016 by commercial transport and those with Private Vehicles and cross the US/Canada Border which is applicable to Visa-Exempt and Non-Visa-Exempt PRs. It seems that other documents which will be valid for travel between US/Canada Land Borders are the Nexus Cards/Valid PR Cards and Canadian Passport. Why question is whether the COPR or the Immigration Landing Paper will no longer be a valid document entering Canada in Private Vehicles ( own or rental). I appreciate if the experts clarify in detail about the changes which will come into effect in March 2016 as per the CIC , the link is given
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=064&t=10
Thank you for your reply

 

[david1697]

Dear Msafiri, Leon, Scylla all other experts.

In continuation with the above thread, what difference will be there for PR who travels after March 2016 by commercial transport and those with Private Vehicles and cross the US/Canada Border which is applicable to Visa-Exempt and Non-Visa-Exempt PRs. It seems that other documents which will be valid for travel between US/Canada Land Borders are the Nexus Cards/Valid PR Cards and Canadian Passport. Why question is whether the COPR or the Immigration Landing Paper will no longer be a valid document entering Canada in Private Vehicles ( own or rental). I appreciate if the experts clarify in detail about the changes which will come into effect in March 2016 as per the CIC , the link is given
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=064&t=10
Thank you for your reply

I will let others answer your question, the meaning of the text in a link you posted is not sufficiently clear to me, so I may misunderstand it.

If it was up to me to interpret it, I would say that starting March 2016 if you are Canadian PR you MUST have a valid Canadian PR Card to board a flight into Canada from abroad. If you don't have Canadian PR Card you may not be allowed to board plane, no matter what other documents or entitlements you have. In case you are Canadian PR and want to enter Canada and don't have Canadian PR card, you will have to drive in private vehicle into Canada (no bus, train or air).


On a side note:

Canada is a great country, I keep saying everyone here how beautiful it is and how nice it is over there.
But, IMHO, the way to keep Canadian PR's in Canada is not by penalizing them and stripping them of PR status for leaving it, but instead
admitting no more immigrants than there are jobs to gainfully employ them.

Anyone who was in US 10 years ago knows that US job market is not nearly as good it was 10 years ago, getting a job is a real struggle here now, and making a living in US is not a cake-walk, you really have to work and work hard, no matter you lay concrete in construction or work as a doctor or a lawyer in the office.
However, I personally don't know of any US PR who "hides" outside of USA for years and only comes here once in a blue moon to keep a PR Card.
I hear anecdotal stories about such people and they probably exist , but it's sufficiently rare that I don't encounter such individuals in my daily routine.
We don't have forums in US where a lot of US PR status holders share their worries about returning to US after prolonged absence from US (and prolonged here means anything in excess of 6 months).

The issue is not "bad, sneaky, law breaking PR's who want to go under radar", but the fact that people need to pay bills and sustain their families, and they can't do that when getting ANY job becomes such a struggle that even people with higher education are forced to work in Walmart or flip burgers, just to be able to pay rent and not waste their savings.
Reduce the quote,temporarily zero it down it necessary, bring a good vibe to a job market and then punish those Canadian PR's who still don't want to live in Canada.
As to new Canadian law which will allow to strip of Citizenship for moving abroad AFTER becoming Canadian Citizen, this is just beyond my comprehension. In US you must be some major criminal, like a former Nazi or similar, to be stripped of Citizenship. Why dole such an extreme punishment on someone who merely decides to move out of Canada after becoming a citizen?
This is just surreal to me.

 

[Leon]

Dear Msafiri, Leon, Scylla all other experts.

In continuation with the above thread, what difference will be there for PR who travels after March 2016 by commercial transport and those with Private Vehicles and cross the US/Canada Border which is applicable to Visa-Exempt and Non-Visa-Exempt PRs. It seems that other documents which will be valid for travel between US/Canada Land Borders are the Nexus Cards/Valid PR Cards and Canadian Passport. Why question is whether the COPR or the Immigration Landing Paper will no longer be a valid document entering Canada in Private Vehicles ( own or rental). I appreciate if the experts clarify in detail about the changes which will come into effect in March 2016 as per the CIC , the link is given
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=064&t=10
Thank you for your reply

As far as I can see, the only change that is happening on March 16th is eTA:

Canada has introduced a new entry requirement, known as an eTA, for visa-exempt foreign nationals travelling to Canada by air. Exceptions include U.S. citizens and travellers with a valid visa. Entry requirements for other methods of travel (land, sea) have not changed.

Looking at what immigration is writing about eTA and the purpose of eTA, it seems that the main purspose is a universal pre-screening of visa exempt individuals and not to catch visa exempt PR's who don't meet the RO and are trying to sneak back in.

However, that would be a side effect of eTA that if you are in that exact situation, it will be harder for you to return by air, as applying for eTA will likely trigger your PR to pop up at CIC and they can decide beforehand how to deal with you instead of it being up to the immigration officer as you enter.

 

[Leon]

Reduce the quote,temporarily zero it down it necessary, bring a good vibe to a job market and then punish those Canadian PR's who still don't want to live in Canada.

It is not really about punishing PR's who leave. No country I know of gives you PR status for life if you choose not to live there. Or maybe you know of one?

The US does not have concrete residency requirements for their PR's, however, one of the criteria for losing US PR would be "if you move to another country, intending to live there permanently" or "Fail to file income tax returns while living outside of the United States for any period", as seen here: http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-granted/maintaining-permanent-residence

In many other countries, you lose your PR status if you leave for more than 6 months so Canada is actually being quite generous to allow people to keep their PR for only living in Canada 2 / 5 years.

 

[david1697]

It is not really about punishing PR's who leave. No country I know of gives you PR status for life if you choose not to live there. Or maybe you know of one?

The US does not have concrete residency requirements for their PR's, however, one of the criteria for losing US PR would be "if you move to another country, intending to live there permanently" or "Fail to file income tax returns while living outside of the United States for any period", as seen here: http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-granted/maintaining-permanent-residence

In many other countries, you lose your PR status if you leave for more than 6 months so Canada is actually being quite generous to allow people to keep their PR for only living in Canada 2 / 5 years.

Leon, the question I ask is: why Canadian PR's in such large numbers try to avoid staying in Canada?
Are PR's to blame for a fact that they can't get gainful employment in Canada and are forced to work at Walmart or flip burgers, even those who have higher education and qualified for immigration under Skilled Worker visa?
We have less generous provisions for US PR, true, but don't you ask yourself why there are no US forums where as many US PR share their worries of returning to US after long absences? Don't you think this has something to do with totally limp job market rather than sneaky and law breaking immigrants being reluctant to live where they were granted PR status?

 

[keesio]

david1967 - there are two separate issues here. The first is Canada's PR RO. The second is the struggles of new immigrants to find gainful employment and deciding to go elsewhere to get it. The latter is not a reason to eliminate the former. It is totally fine for someone to decide that Canada is a disappointment and they rather go elsewhere. But those same people can't expect to hang on to their PR. I mean why do they want to be a PR if Canada is not for them and they don't want to be there? Well for some, the answer is to become a citizen so they can access the US job market much easier with a TN visa. If that is the case, then it is the old classic "use Canada as a stepping stone to the US" scenario that has been going on forever and frowned upon by CIC and most Canadians in general.

 

[david1697]

david1967 - there are two separate issues here. The first is Canada's PR RO. The second is the struggles of new immigrants to find gainful employment and deciding to go elsewhere to get it. The latter is not a reason to eliminate the former. It is totally fine for someone to decide that Canada is a disappointment and they rather go elsewhere. But those same people can't expect to hang on to their PR. I mean why do they want to be a PR if Canada is not for them and they don't want to be there? Well for some, the answer is to become a citizen so they can access the US job market much easier with a TN visa. If that is the case, then it is the old classic "use Canada as a stepping stone to the US" scenario that has been going on forever and frowned upon by CIC and most Canadians in general.

keesio, let me also ask you the question I hope you or someone else will answer here.

First, a quick background: As you well know we are talking here about specific class of immigrants, the Skilled Workers who come to Canada for Skilled Work in one of the areas where Canadian government claims they have a shortage of workers. We are not talking about refugees or those who simply boarded a ship and came to Canada or America taking a blind gamble with their future, as immigrants used to do 120 or more years ago, and some still do even today.
We are talking here about modern Skilled Workers who were specifically told that Canada has shortage of labor in THEIR field ,which requires Higher Education, and they are needed in Canada to fill existing , perhaps desperately looking for a candidate vacancy.
How this PR must feel, after spending thousands of dollars, selling property, bringing savings, hopeful for a bright future, and finally discovering that not only there is no shortage of workers, but there is extreme abundance of very desperate immigrants looking for a job that they struggle for months or even years to get? What is the mental state of someone who is in professional career , hasn't been flipping burgers since may be going to college and working part time, yet once again forced to work at a place like a Walmart or McDonalds, as if one had only a high school education and no professional experience at all?
Isn't there ANY responsibility at all towards these people who were given a wrong impression that their skills and higher education will be sought in Canada? And after all they are the ones who must be penalized ? Why not also penalize those who advertised non existent jobs for skilled immigrants and brought enormously greater number of immigrants to Canada than there are jobs requiring their skills?