Whether a family with children can enter Canada with expired PR Cards through US

[Sydkadra]

Dear Leon,Msafir, and other experts

My friend and his family with children have their PR card expired last month when they are outside Canada and now they want to enter Canada through US land Border as all of his family including children have valid US visitors visa and they are from a non-visa exempt country. They want to settle down in Canada permanently in Jan 2016. Since, in this forum it was mentioned that the PRTD is difficult to get if the PR obligation is in question and they don't want to take the risk of being refused of issue of PRTD. It was told in this forum that PRs can travel by land in Car rented in US and pass through Canadian border at Niagara with COPR attached to their passports. Please clarify the following points.
1. Whether they can travel by Rental car from Buffalo, US to Niagara Falls, ON crossing the Canadian Border with the Confirmation of Permanent Residence paper attached to the passport for showing it to the CBSA officers as their PR cards are already expired in June 2015 after 5 years. Whether they will be allowed into Canada without being questioned anything relating to Residency Obligation.
2. Whether they can get a Rental mini Van in Buffalo from a rent a car company that will allow them to take the van from the Buffalo Border into Canada and drop off at different location in Toronto. Whether any of our forum member has come across with similar situation and used the rental car.
3. Whether the CBSA officers ask about the US car number plate and ask questions that why the rental car was not taken in Canada as they may be presuming that they are PR returning families after vacationing in the US.
4. Please provide any useful tips for the family which will be helpful for them to enter Canada in Car with expired PR cards but with COPR for showing.
5. If the one way drop-off rental car is difficult then what is the possibility of crossing the border with hand carry luggage only on foot and whether it will be allowed by the US border officers and what questions will be asked by CBSA officers, if they walk down the Rainbow or Lewiston-Queenston Bridge.

I appreciate and be grateful to all who will provide answers with full details so that they journey by my friend's family to Canada from US will be easy and hassle free

Thanks and Best Regards

 

[Msafiri]

1. Yes they can show up at the border with expired PR Cards and COPR docs as a rental car is not considered a commercial mode of transport. Nobody knows what will happen at the border on the RO questioning as it depends on the agent you find and your luck on the day.

2. Yes they can do this - it happens every day and its not new to CBSA or most of the major rental companies. Have all paperwork pertaining to the rental at hand to show CBSA including proof that the rental company has authorized a one way.

3. See 3 - its nothing unusual but CBSA want to make sure you are not importing the vehicle.

4. Be truthful with the agents as misrepresentation is heavily punished under the IRPA. This doesn't mean you have to volunteer any information not asked for by the agent.

5. It shouldn't be - see 2/3 but sure you can walk across depending on the bridge e.g Rainbow yes but Lewiston-Queenston no pedestrian crossing. US CBP don't really care as you are leaving the US and CBSA will process you when you show up the primary line. Crossing times will be influenced by time/day of the week and which location is used...you could be in line for up to 4 hours.

 

[Sydkadra]

Dear Msafiri
Thank you very much for replying in details to all the questions and it will be helpful for the family to be fully prepared in line with your answers it is really appreciated. Another question is that they said they contacted AVIS on phone to check whether they can rent a one way rental to Canada, they replied it is possible but for the compact saloon cars only but not for SUV. My question is whether there is any restriction or it will be difficult for the rental company to bring back the SUV than the Saloon Car back to US.
Whether we can get
1- Any Canadian Private SUV vehicle operated by private person who can provide the transport services at Buffalo for drop off at For Eerie for a price and whether it will be objected by CBSA.
2- Is it easy to get rental of all kinds of vehicles for one way travel as you said it is more common practice there and most of the big rental companies are aware of such requirements by the PR.

Thank you and for all who will provide their own personal experiences.

Regards

SydKadra

 

[Bobaz1]

I became a Permenant Resident of Canada in 2004. I worked in Canada up to 2006. In 2006 i had to return to my home country to take care of personal matters. Since then i didnt return to Canada therefore now my PR Card is expired and I definitely do not meet the minimum residency requirements since i have been outside of Canada for more than 6 years.
I am now married with 2 children (wife and children do not have PR status)

My question now is:
1- is there a way to re-enter canada with my wife and children and renew my PR ?

2- if the above is not an option. Is it better to voluntarily surrender my PR status and re-apply for myself and family through the express entry application (i can get a job offer from my previous employer in canada) ?
3- do you suggest any other way?

I appreciate your early response

 

[Msafiri]

Dear Msafiri
Thank you very much for replying in details to all the questions and it will be helpful for the family to be fully prepared in line with your answers it is really appreciated. Another question is that they said they contacted AVIS on phone to check whether they can rent a one way rental to Canada, they replied it is possible but for the compact saloon cars only but not for SUV. My question is whether there is any restriction or it will be difficult for the rental company to bring back the SUV than the Saloon Car back to US.
Whether we can get
1- Any Canadian Private SUV vehicle operated by private person who can provide the transport services at Buffalo for drop off at For Eerie for a price and whether it will be objected by CBSA.
2- Is it easy to get rental of all kinds of vehicles for one way travel as you said it is more common practice there and most of the big rental companies are aware of such requirements by the PR.

Thank you and for all who will provide their own personal experiences.

Regards

SydKadra

Each company has its own policies so shop around don't restrict yourself to just AVIS - go on the internet and check say Hertz, Enterprise, National etc. You getting someone to pick you up in their private car and drive you into Canada is something you have decide/arrange but CBSA would assume its not commercial. I personally never cross the border in my private vehicle with someone I don't know and trust - the implications of say someone having something they shouldn't have that contravenes customs/ immigration laws etc are not worth the hassle as it can end up with being an accessory to a prosecution charge. I think you are over stressing the rental...its a common occurrence at the border..CBP and CBSA see rental traffic both sides of the border.

 

[Sydkadra]

Dear Msafiri
Thank you for all this clarification and as you said the rental car traffic is more obvious and prevalent then I will ask my friend to check more more rental companies to get the vehicle of their choice. It is really dubious to ride with an unknown person and cross the border and customs which may entail further problems. I will ask them to hire a car from many available and proceed on their journey.

Thanks

 

[Sydkadra]

Dear Leon, Scylla, Msafiri and other experts

In continuation of the above questions, my question is
1. Whether a non-Visa exempt Passport Holder Canadian PR who holds valid Ontario Driver's License can hire rent a car in US and drive without the need of International Driver's Permit, if IDP is must where it can be obtained as they are traveling from the home country to US and then US to Canada in the rental car.

2. What documents in US required by Car Rentals to issue a Car to Canadian PR holding Valid DL? Whether they want to see the Citizenship Proof or want to see the PR Card and what if the PR Cards are expired.

Please provide the answer in details

Thanks

 

[david1697]

I have entered Canada from US in past, with COPR (for landing, as well as a Canadian PR), and with Canadian PR card.

#1. In my experience, not having a PR Card resulted in immediate referral to secondary inspection, where I was questioned as if I was someone who stole or forged a COPR, with officers questioning me with demonstrable anger and intimidation (which only subsided after I started to show righteous indignation of my own and got ready to speak to supervisor and report those officers to their superiors).
This kind of treatment never happened to any of my family members, neither my spouse nor my children, so I guess my being a male and some vague "gut" feeling (or stereotyping) of an officer at check point could be a reason for the extra scrutiny I was subjected to.
I am sure that there was no way I would be admitted to Canada with COPR and without being reported if I was even 1 day in breach of RO.

#2. On a different occasion, having a Valid PR Card (with more than 3 years of validity period) I flew to Canada from US, and was admitted without any hassle, and it felt very different from driving to Canada with COPR via land border.
I think the fact that I had PR Card (and had already cleared US TSA, allowed to fly into Canada and etc.) already reduced suspicion of the officers that I forged PR Card, they were kind of certain of me being myself ,and with PR Card having more than 3yr validity I guess there was just no reason to send me to a secondary inspection. So, I was admitted without any delays or intimidation.
However, I am not sure I would fare as well if my PR Card had less than 3 yrs of validity. Chances are, they would have asked me about RO, and I would have told them the truth, thus ending up being reported.

Obviously, if you are in breach of RO you are in breach of RO. Which means you are at mercy of your luck and discretion of the inspecting officer. Unlike me on secondary, where I could press back and demand explanation for unprovoked intimidation, you will have zero grounds to challenge the officer if they decide to scrutinize you about your residence.

Also, being a male immigrant is a big disadvantage, because nobody feels guilty about roughing men up, so there is a greater probability of inspectors selecting you for secondary review than your spouse and children.

I don't know why people think that land border is any less of a chance to be scrutinized than air. The only difference between land (assuming you are in private, not commercial vehicle) and air is that when you fly in you must fill in a paper and provide dates there, while on land crossing you don't present anything up until you face the border guard, who then may ask you for id and additional information.

If you end up trying to enter Canada with COPR and in breach of RO, just be fully prepared to be reported on border and don't sell any property, don't quit your job and don't take any drastic step that would put you in extremely great disadvantage in case you are reported and forced to return.
Just take a trip there and let whatever happens to happen. If it meant for you to be PR there they will let you, if not you will just go back home.

Re: Car rentals - try to rent from big cities or large hubs not far from Canada and where they deal with great number of customers who rent a car to travel without restrictions. Even the same franchise (like Hertz, Avis and etc.) will have different policies depending on particular location and their general customer base.
I rented cars in Germany and Spain, at airports, via Hertz and Avis, and was free to travel anywhere within Schengen area, no mileage or country restrictions: though they have no borders, still, when I looked online I noticed that car rentals at airports had the least restrictions.
So, check with various national brand name car rentals near/in large metropolitan city and close to Canadian border, those are the ones most likely to have the least restrictions, regardless of the name of rental company.

Good luck.

 

[Canvan003]

In my case, which is worst than anybody here; I crossed the border with an expired PR card by showing them landing paper (COPR) and expired PRC. Officer let me through just by asking 'did you apply for renewal' ? Yes I did, I said. That was the only question he asked and it took me 15 to 20 seconds to enter in Canada in private vehicle. It happend not just once but couple of times with me at the border.

To add more, when my PR Card was reaching its expiry I travelled outside Canada, stayed outside for 3 months and returned by Air just before 2 days of its expiry. No officer for questioning, no questions asked by anyone, no problem at all. (I scanned my PR card at Kiosk).

And yes, I was maintaining my Residency Requirements all the time.

I don't have any idea about rent a car but all I know is that they can enter Canada with an expired PR Cards and COPR.

 

[Canvan003]

Dear Leon, Scylla, Msafiri and other experts

In continuation of the above questions, my question is
1. Whether a non-Visa exempt Passport Holder Canadian PR who holds valid Ontario Driver's License can hire rent a car in US and drive without the need of International Driver's Permit, if IDP is must where it can be obtained as they are traveling from the home country to US and then US to Canada in the rental car.

2. What documents in US required by Car Rentals to issue a Car to Canadian PR holding Valid DL? Whether they want to see the Citizenship Proof or want to see the PR Card and what if the PR Cards are expired.

Please provide the answer in details

Thanks

I guess Canadian Driver's License would work in this situation without any problem. That's my opinion, experts here can answer this question better.

 

[david1697]

In my case, which is worst than anybody here; I crossed the border with an expired PR card by showing them landing paper (COPR) and expired PRC. Officer let me through just by asking 'did you apply for renewal' ? Yes I did, I said. That was the only question he asked and it took me 15 to 20 seconds to enter in Canada in private vehicle. It happend not just once but couple of times with me at the border.

To add more, when my PR Card was reaching its expiry I travelled outside Canada, stayed outside for 3 months and returned by Air just before 2 days of its expiry. No officer for questioning, no questions asked by anyone, no problem at all. (I scanned my PR card at Kiosk).

And yes, I was maintaining my Residency Requirements all the time.

I don't have any idea about rent a car but all I know is that they can enter Canada with an expired PR Cards and COPR.

The crucial part is you maintained residency and didn't breach RO.
At worst they would have referred you to secondary (like they did me when I had COPR and before I had PR Card), and there you would be cleared once they were satisfied about whatever inquiries they had. The OP here speaks of a family which has not lived in Canada for a long time and have breached RO. A BIG difference.

 

[Canvan003]

Yes, that's what I said. I maintained my residency requirement all the time. Even with a shortfall or breach of RO, they can still manage to enter in Canada but there will be high chances of getting reported.

 

[david1697]

Yes, that's what I said. I maintained my residency requirement all the time. Even with a shortfall or breach of RO, they can still manage to enter in Canada but there will be high chances of getting reported.

I understood what you said. And no one denies that OP may be able to enter Canada without being reported, let alone his entitlement as PR to enter Canada.

But you also wrote this:
"In my case, which is worst than anybody here.."

Your case is not worse than anyone's who has a valid PR status and keeps up with RO.
OP is under a whole different set of circumstances, he and his family are in breach of RO.

 

[Canvan003]

Oh, I said that because my Citizenship Application was rejected in 2012.

And the reason of rejection was Residency Requirement which makes my case "worst" atleast according to me. However, I stayed here in Canada for over 2 years to get back on track.

 

[david1697]

Oh, I said that because my Citizenship Application was rejected in 2012.

And the reason of rejection was Residency Requirement which makes my case "worst" atleast according to me. However, I stayed here in Canada for over 2 years to get back on track.

Your Citizenship app rejected on the grounds of not meeting RR has nothing to do with having a COPR and a compliance with 2 yr RO at the time of re-entering Canada.
The OP above who is outside of Canada has COPR but has no compliance with RO. He will be admitted to Canada if he presents himself at the POE, but may never be allowed to stay in Canada as PR if the officer at the border chooses to scrutinize his residency obligation.

How having a COPR and having fulfilled RO placed you in a worse circumstance than OP who has a COPR and obvious breach of RO?