US to Canada w/expired PR card

[cecorbust]

To be clear, U.S. citizens are exempt from the eTA requirements. But the discussion is about a Canadian PR who happens to also be a U.S. citizen. And PRs are also exempt from eTA requirements.

But PRs are subject to the rule that they must present either a PR card or a PR TD to board a flight to Canada.

For this there are no exemptions related to nationality. That is, it does not matter what passport the PR is carrying, whether visa exempt or not, whether eTA exempt or not, whether a U.S. passport or some other passport.

The question is whether or not there will be actual enforcement of the rule for PRs. Not the eTA requirements, but the rule specifically requiring PRs to present a PR card or PR TD.

The reason eTA is relevant to discussions about this is that it is the implementation of the eTA program which has brought about changes to the way passengers are screened prior to boarding flights. That is, the impact on PRs, potentially (I'd say likely) including PRs carrying a U.S. passport, is a collateral consequence of changes in the screening process due to the implementation of eTA.

That is, the impact on PRs carrying a U.S. passport (or a visa-exempt passport) is not about eTA itself, but arises collaterally as a result of eTA being implemented.

Given recent IRCC cautions to dual citizens that by fall all Canadian citizens will need to use their Canadian passport to board a flight to Canada, again regardless what other passport they are carrying, it is clear that the CBSA software for screening passengers identifies Canadians as Canadians. That does NOT tell us when, for sure the rules will be enforced for PRs.

As I have noted in a separate topic, however, it may be telling that IRCC information online specifically references that the rule for dual citizens will not be enforced until the end of the eTA leniency period, but does not include any such reference to its recently updated information for PRs.

This is precisely the issue. On a recent flight back to Canada from the US (I am a Canadian PR and US Citizen) I was unable to check in online or at the kiosks in the airport. Because I didn't have a "return" ticket booked back to the states and because there is no way to identify that you are a Permanent Resident of Canada when you purchase your ticket, I had to speak with an agent at the airport and show them my PR card to be allowed to check in for the flight and obtain my boarding passes. So to emphasize what others have said here, you won't have a problem at the port of entry but it is entirely possible that you will have issues with the airline.

 

[Rob_TO]

This is precisely the issue. On a recent flight back to Canada from the US (I am a Canadian PR and US Citizen) I was unable to check in online or at the kiosks in the airport. Because I didn't have a "return" ticket booked back to the states and because there is no way to identify that you are a Permanent Resident of Canada when you purchase your ticket, I had to speak with an agent at the airport and show them my PR card to be allowed to check in for the flight and obtain my boarding passes. So to emphasize what others have said here, you won't have a problem at the port of entry but it is entirely possible that you will have issues with the airline.

In the past, PRs traveling without a PR card have purchased a return ticket as well, to prevent this issue. Some airline seem to be more strict of foreign nationals showing proof of return or onward ticket from Canada, while others don't care. Of course if return ticket is fully refundable, it can be cancelled right after you successfully check in.

 

[Ponga]

In the past, PRs traveling without a PR card have purchased a return ticket as well, to prevent this issue. Some airline seem to be more strict of foreign nationals showing proof of return or onward ticket from Canada, while others don't care. Of course if return ticket is fully refundable, it can be cancelled right after you successfully check in.

Yes, but a PR of Canada is not a foreign national. Perhaps it's time for CIC/CBSA to educate air carriers.

 

[Rob_TO]

Yes, but a PR of Canada is not a foreign national. Perhaps it's time for CIC/CBSA to educate air carriers.

Yes, but for a PR to fly without their PR card they basically needed to pretend they were a foreign national. This was the whole basis of PRs flying on visa-exempt passports alone without a PR card.

For Americans this practice can continue indefinitely assuming airlines can't see ones PR status automatically when they check in. Whether they can or not is not known, people can just guess until we see some people report on what has actually happened in real life. And if airlines can see an American is a PR and not a foreign national, the next question is if they will allow boarding on just the US passport with no PR card. Again a complete unknown at this time.

 

[Ponga]

Makes me wonder when CIC will change the name of the COPR to something more accurate, since the document clearly does NOT confirm PR at all, yet we're all told to "keep it in a safe place" when we land. What a joke.

Even the fine folks at ICBC (Driver Licensing in BC) see it as a worthless piece of paper.

There's no reason why a COPR (that has been validated, showing the date the person landed) and a PRC cannot prove the same thing.

*End of rant*

 

[ExpatProf]

Reporting in:

My question is technically moot, as my new PR card arrived today!

That said, especially since you all were so helpful (and also as I'm curious, and a researcher at heart), I will try to travel back with only my US passport. I will only show them my new PR card if they ask for it. And I will report back what happens.

Best,
ExpatProf

 

[ExpatProf]

Hi All,

Just back, and here's my report:

At the airport in the US, no one asked me for anything except my (US) passport.

At the PoE in Canada, I tested the system by scanning my US passport instead of my new Canadian PR card, but then when I got to the human being at the desk, they asked about my status, and when I said I was a PR, they said I should have scanned my PR card, not my passport. I then told the guard about how I just got my new PR card a few days prior, and asked her what would have happened if I had arrived at this point with only the expired PR card. She said that would have been fine, and that I simply would have had to go into the office behind her where they would have looked me up in the system - she said it just would have taken a bit longer.

So to conclude:

1) Still seems to be possible (or at least not uniformly enforced otherwise) to travel US --> Canada with a US passport and no PR card (or equivalent/replacement doc).

2) It's apparently no problem to return to a Canadian PoE with an expired or missing PR card (although this may depend on one's status in the system - e.g. whether one has applied for a replacement, whether it has been approved, etc. - I don't know about these potentialities).

Thanks again for all your help!

ExpatProf

 

[Rob_TO]

At the airport in the US, no one asked me for anything except my (US) passport.

Thanks for that. It's what I mostly expected, that the airlines probably can't tell on their own if one is a PR or not, unless you volunteer the info to them. While screening your for issuing the ticket, if they had access to a screen that clearly stated you were a Canadian PR, they most likely would have said something.

Would still be curious if PRs from eTA required countries get through as easy.

2) It's apparently no problem to return to a Canadian PoE with an expired or missing PR card (although this may depend on one's status in the system - e.g. whether one has applied for a replacement, whether it has been approved, etc. - I don't know about these potentialities).

This is already common knowledge. A PR card is most definitely NOT required at the Canadian PoE. As long as you have landed as a PR, then CBSA can always determine your PR status and you'll be allowed entry into Canada. If you are currently in process for a replacement PR card doesn't matter, the only key factor here is making sure you're in compliance with the residency obligation.

 

[dpenabill]

Just back, and here's my report:

Thank you for the report.


Regarding PoE experience:

This report is consistent with the conventional wisdom here.

At the PoE in Canada, I tested the system by scanning my US passport instead of my new Canadian PR card, but then when I got to the human being at the desk, they asked about my status, and when I said I was a PR, they said I should have scanned my PR card, not my passport. I then told the guard about how I just got my new PR card a few days prior, and asked her what would have happened if I had arrived at this point with only the expired PR card. She said that would have been fine, and that I simply would have had to go into the office behind her where they would have looked me up in the system - she said it just would have taken a bit longer.

So to conclude:

2) It's apparently no problem to return to a Canadian PoE with an expired or missing PR card (although this may depend on one's status in the system - e.g. whether one has applied for a replacement, whether it has been approved, etc. - I don't know about these potentialities).

This outcome, again, is consistent with the conventional wisdom and understanding of most participants in this forum, and consistent with what I posted:

It is very unlikely you will encounter a problem at the PoE itself . . .

Or, simply, really, the PoE is not going to be a problem.

-- No problem at the PoE . . . especially if you present your U.S. passport and your expired PR card

There has been little or no confusion or uncertainty as to that aspect of things.

It would be different, of course, for a PR who has not complied with the PR Residency Obligation, or perhaps for one who had cut it close and for whom there might be questions about compliance with the PR RO. When the PIL officer said that if you only had the expired PR card it would take just a bit longer in the back room, to look you up in the system, for a PR on the cusp of breaching the PR RO that interview could include a residency examination.




Regarding boarding the flight:

At the airport in the US, no one asked me for anything except my (US) passport.

So to conclude:
1) Still seems to be possible (or at least not uniformly enforced otherwise) to travel US --> Canada with a US passport and no PR card (or equivalent/replacement doc).

This too was also much as I anticipated.

My guess is that it is also unlikely there will be any problem boarding the flight itself.
. . .
My best guess is that for a flight departing the U.S. for Canada, a U.S. passport gets an easy pass. Personally I would probably chance it, and I am not much of a risk taker (these days).

My guess is that for now, until the end of summer, there is a fair chance a PR with a U.S. passport can still board a flight to Canada from the U.S. but I am NOT confident about this, let alone certain, absolutely no guarantees.

For at least through summer my guess remains as before, that a Canadian PR presenting a U.S. passport has good odds of being allowed to board a flight originating in the U.S. and headed to Canada. But your experience does not obviate the lack of certainty as to what another PR (with U.S. citizenship) might encounter when boarding a flight, even one originating in the U.S.

As to explaining why or how, or trying to draw general conclusions, there remains a range of possibilities. For example, given the presentation of a U.S. passport for a flight within North America, it is possible there is no API entry made into the IAPI system (while the CBSA system is distinctly, separately Canadian, it was built on the U.S. model for screening passengers on flights headed to North America).

It is also possible that since this flight was booked in Canada, there already was clearance for boarding passes in both directions (thus, again, no API entry into the IAPI system for purposes of obtaining clearance to issue boarding pass for flight to Canada).

I definitely would not infer this means the IAPI system does not recognize PRs, or does not respond to the API entry in a way that does not reveal who is a PR. This too remains one of the possibilities, but my sense is that this is one of the less likely scenarios.

In general, for PRs from other visa-exempt countries, I wonder whether during this eTA leniency period if there is a practical difference between boarding flights to Canada from the U.S. versus boarding flights originating elsewhere in the world. I would not be at all surprised if there is a difference. Which is to say, perhaps a PR presenting a visa-exempt passport for a flight originating from the U.S. gets an easier pass than if it is a flight originating outside North America.



Regarding no need for valid PR card at PoE:

This is already common knowledge.

I agree . . . in terms of common knowledge among regular participants in this forum . . . but it is far from intuitive. Look at the early exchanges in this particular discussion, ExpatProf was surprised, perhaps even a bit incredulous initially, when posts here said not to worry about what will happen at the PoE. Just the fact that ExpatProf made the effort to query the border officer about this suggests ExpatProf was not quite convinced.

And I do not fault anyone for harboring such skepticism. Even the most firmly accepted conventional wisdom in online sites can indeed be wrong.

Nonetheless, this does illustrate one of the benefits of a site like this, where non-official, informal but fairly well established information can be shared, so that what those who follow such things learn, and is for them "common knowledge," can be shared with those who are not so engaged.

 

[keesio]

What is people's opinion on NEXUS? In the past, my wife and I carried our US passports since we need it to enter Canada and our NEXUS cards to enter Canada. We left our PR card (her) and Canadian passport (me) at home since it was never needed. Is this changing also? In the past, a NEXUS card was considered a valid travel document into both US and Canada. In fact, when we check into our Air Canada flights to the US, we are given the choice of entering either our passport number OR NEXUS ID. If we enter our NEXUS ID, officials actually prefer to see our NEXUS card when boarding (to match numbers).

So it sounds like if we can board with our NEXUS cards, we should be able to enter Canada (if we ever get picked out for secondary screening and have to talk to an actual officer) with our US passport and NEXUS cards (which has information on our Canadian travel documents - PR card for my wife and passport for myself) even when the new rules are enforced.... ?

 

[dpenabill]

What is people's opinion on NEXUS? In the past, my wife and I carried our US passports since we need it to enter Canada and our NEXUS cards to enter Canada. We left our PR card (her) and Canadian passport (me) at home since it was never needed. Is this changing also? In the past, a NEXUS card was considered a valid travel document into both US and Canada. In fact, when we check into our Air Canada flights to the US, we are given the choice of entering either our passport number OR NEXUS ID. If we enter our NEXUS ID, officials actually prefer to see our NEXUS card when boarding (to match numbers).

So it sounds like if we can board with our NEXUS cards, we should be able to enter Canada (if we ever get picked out for secondary screening and have to talk to an actual officer) with our US passport and NEXUS cards (which has information on our Canadian travel documents - PR card for my wife and passport for myself) even when the new rules are enforced.... ?

dpenabill - what is your opinion on NEXUS? In the past, my wife and I carried our US passports since we need it to enter Canada and our NEXUS cards to enter Canada. We left our PR card (her) and Canadian passport (me) at home since it was never needed. Is this changing also? In the past, a NEXUS card was considered a valid travel document into both US and Canada.

I am not all that familiar with the practical aspects of NEXUS (I live at least a thousand km from the nearest border crossing with a NEXUS lane).

My guess is that however the NEXUS plan works, it will continue to work that way. Online information about NEXUS should provide information about any impending changes.

Driving: there never was or is any risk for a Canadian citizen, so long as the citizen has proof of identity. Little risk for a Canadian PR as long as the PR has proof of identity. Worst case scenario is a brief referral to secondary to verify identity and status. Remember: Canadians are entitled to enter Canada, both Canadian citizens and Canadian PRs. A Canadian drivers license should ultimately work, at the PoE, for most Canadians (citizens or PRs), although that could result in a more extensive Secondary examination.


Flying: perhaps it's up in the air to some extent. Sorry, could not resist that pun. But how Canada and the U.S. treat the other's citizens has long been more accommodating than how they approach most other nationalities, both in formal exceptions or programs (like NEXUS), and even more so in informal practices. Indeed, the U.S./Canadian border has long been one for which the formalities are often overlooked or even disregarded. But not always. Now, with the implementation of eTA there is another formal difference between Americans traveling to Canada and travelers from other visa-exempt countries.

But the PR rule itself does not distinguish PRs on the basis of their nationality or what passport they carry. What IRCC is publicizing these days about requiring Canadian citizens with dual citizenship to present a valid Canadian passport (after the leniency period) does not distinguish between those whose other citizenship is visa-exempt or American. So how it will go after the leniency period, as I said, it's up in the air.

The thing is, regardless the informal practices that can appear to be so normal, so routine, as to be the rule, anyone can encounter enforcement of the actual rules on a given occasion. (I confess: I suffer a bit of a pet peeve regarding declarative answers in forums like this based on common practices without regard to the actual rules; what usually works does not necessarily indicate what will work, and thus I find advice based on common practice without acknowledging the actual rules to be misleading and sometimes dangerous.)

As I have aged I have grown risk-averse. I tend to follow the rules. I have been pleasantly surprised how easy things go when following the rules. It is like hey-this-really-works. So I almost always carry both my U.S. and Canadian passports, displaying the U.S. one for U.S. authorities (they more or less demand this, but their bark is far worse than what they actually do or can do for that matter), and presenting my Canadian one for Canadian authorities (have slipped up here on occasion, being forgetful or disorganized or both, and the Canadian side tends to just shrug as long as I have my U.S. passport). Similarly but with my PR card before I became a citizen.

But when driving, the worst case scenario is answering some questions in secondary. Again, a Canadian drivers license will probably, ultimately, suffice.

When flying, again it's up in the air, it really is. That noted, a Canadian passport or Canadian PR card for sure gets a person on the flight back to Canada. No need to worry or guess. If the NEXUS program is in fact used for flights between the countries, that too should be a sure bet. What's still up in the air is how easy it will be going forward for American citizens who do not present a Canadian passport or PR card, or perhaps NEXUS (assuming, as it appears you know, that NEXUS works for flying -- the NEXUS online information should clearly describe the scope of its use).

 

[keesio]

Thanks for your always insightful and detailed replies!

As I have aged I have grown risk-averse. I tend to follow the rules. I have been pleasantly surprised how easy things go when following the rules. It is like hey-this-really-works. So I almost always carry both my U.S. and Canadian passports, displaying the U.S. one for U.S. authorities (they more or less demand this, but their bark is far worse than what they actually do or can do for that matter), and presenting my Canadian one for Canadian authorities (have slipped up here on occasion, being forgetful or disorganized or both, and the Canadian side tends to just shrug as long as I have my U.S. passport). Similarly but with my PR card before I became a citizen.

I am also risk-adverse. However the fear I have is losing my documents when I am traveling. So I like to only carry the minimum documents I need to. Call me paranoid (especially since I travel very often and have so far (knock on wood) been able to hang on to all my documents) but that is the way I think. So if I can just carry one passport and a NEXUS card, that makes me feel better. And when it is travel to the US, I know I need the US passport since their Global Entry kiosk requires a US passport while the NEXUS kiosk when entering Canada only requires the NEXUS card.

the NEXUS online information should clearly describe the scope of its use).

That is the annoying thing. It is unclear for people in my (and my wife's) situation. It doesn't seem to address dual-citizens or Americans with Canadian PR very clearly. I should just call them up to confirm.

 

[dpenabill]

It probably warrants noting, even if it is obvious, that it probably makes a big difference that the travel is directly between the U.S. and Canada.

Dual American & Canadian citizens, or an American citizen with Canadian PR, may encounter a rather different scenario when boarding a flight to Canada from a country other than the U.S.

In the meantime, so far the U.S. is far more strict about having a passport to board a flight to the U.S. And they can indeed get very cranky if a dual citizen arrives without a U.S. passport. But there are plenty of signs that Canada is headed in the same direction, probably due, in large part, to American influence (more like coercion).

For now there is probably no problem flying to Canada using a U.S. passport, flying from the U.S. anyway. But after the leniency period for eTA, if not right away, sooner or later the formalities are likely to be strict and to be enforced. Which will require citizens to present their Canadian passport, and PRs to present their PR card.

 

[keesio]

It probably warrants noting, even if it is obvious, that it probably makes a big difference that the travel is directly between the U.S. and Canada.

Dual American & Canadian citizens, or an American citizen with Canadian PR, may encounter a rather different scenario when boarding a flight to Canada from a country other than the U.S.

In the meantime, so far the U.S. is far more strict about having a passport to board a flight to the U.S. And they can indeed get very cranky if a dual citizen arrives without a U.S. passport. But there are plenty of signs that Canada is headed in the same direction, probably due, in large part, to American influence (more like coercion).

For now there is probably no problem flying to Canada using a U.S. passport, flying from the U.S. anyway. But after the leniency period for eTA, if not right away, sooner or later the formalities are likely to be strict and to be enforced. Which will require citizens to present their Canadian passport, and PRs to present their PR card.

It is highly likely you are correct. I think flights from other countries abroad get more scrutiny. I don't know if it was a odd occurrence or not, but I recently came back from a trip from Munich, Germany. My passport was checked at least three times. There was a special booth next to the gate where they checked everyone's passport and boarding pass (is this some eTA booth?). Then when boarding, right before you get on the plane, they checked again. The officer looked at my passport very thoroughly with a magnifying glass. He asked if I live in Canada. I said yes. He then asked me if I had a Canadian driver's license. I said "yes". He asked to see it. I showed it to him. Then he let me through. I talked to my colleague about this and he said it is likely we got stopped because we had an electronic boarding pass while others got their paper boarding passes stamped at that first booth (whom they apparently waived through). Then when I landed in Toronto, there were officers checking passports right after you get off the plane! I showed my Canadian passport to the officer and she waived me through quickly. However, some guy ahead of me was stopped and I overheard a bit of the conversation. I believe he is a PR with an unexpired PR card along with his passport (non-visa exempt). But they were asking him something like "how long have you living outside Canada"? It sounded like they were quizzing him about his RO before he even got to customs/immigration. In any case, the easiest part was the actual immigration/customs for me where I used a NEXUS kiosk with my NEXUS card and went through without talking to anyone. In any case, I have never seen that much document checking for a flight EVER. I was glad I had my Canadian passport. But if I don't have to go to the US, I always bring my Canadian passport instead. It is only US-Canada trips I just bring the US passport. I'm not sure what would have happened if I had my US passport and not Canadian one. Now the funny thing is that my wife left a week earlier than me from Geneva, Switzerland and she said there was no such scrutiny at all. So I wonder if flights are randomly selected for scrutiny? Or are they rolling this out slowly with the Munich flight one of the first? Or was there some reason this flight was singled out (did CSIS receive some tip?)? I don't know.