US to Canada w/expired PR card

[ExpatProf]

I am a professor at a Canadian University and reside in Montreal permanently. I am also a US citizen with a valid passport. I have a Canadian PR card, but it expired about a week ago. I applied ("urgently") to renew my PR card, but I suspect I will not receive it before I have to go to a 3 day professional conference in Chicago next weekend.

I understand there are new restrictions on entering Canada (ETA system), but that US citizens are exempt.

My question is:

1) Can I risk flying back to Canada from Chicago? This means assuming the airlines will let me on board with just US passport and no inquiries re my PR status, and then once I'm in Montreal airport, I explain my situation with the expired PR card to the border agents and perhaps have an interview and show them a copy of the application that's in process, a letter from my university, and anything else proving my good standing.

2) Should I better change my flight to go Chicago to Burlington, VT, and then drive across the border? This means more work and more money, and the same conversation with the border guard, who could in theory make an issue about my expired card, even though it's in process and I'm a US citizen residing full-time in Canada.

Very grateful for any advice!

Thanks,
ExpatProf

 

[dpenabill]

I am a professor at a Canadian University and reside in Montreal permanently. I am also a US citizen with a valid passport. I have a Canadian PR card, but it expired about a week ago. I applied ("urgently") to renew my PR card, but I suspect I will not receive it before I have to go to a 3 day professional conference in Chicago next weekend.

I understand there are new restrictions on entering Canada (ETA system), but that US citizens are exempt.

My question is:

1) Can I risk flying back to Canada from Chicago? This means assuming the airlines will let me on board with just US passport and no inquiries re my PR status, and then once I'm in Montreal airport, I explain my situation with the expired PR card to the border agents and perhaps have an interview and show them a copy of the application that's in process, a letter from my university, and anything else proving my good standing.

2) Should I better change my flight to go Chicago to Burlington, VT, and then drive across the border? This means more work and more money, and the same conversation with the border guard, who could in theory make an issue about my expired card, even though it's in process and I'm a US citizen residing full-time in Canada.

Very grateful for any advice!

Thanks,
ExpatProf

It is very unlikely you will encounter a problem at the PoE itself (whether at the airport or at the Vermont/Quebec border) unless there is some other reason for CBSA to be concerned about you (who knows about more or less obvious leftist intellectuals eh? but since Harperman is no longer PM probably less concern in this vein).

Or, simply, really, the PoE is not going to be a problem.

My guess is that it is also unlikely there will be any problem boarding the flight itself.

It is not the eTA program itself which invites concern, but enforcement of the PR rule generally, which requires PRs to present either a PR card or PR Travel Document.

My best guess is that for a flight departing the U.S. for Canada, a U.S. passport gets an easy pass. Personally I would probably chance it, and I am not much of a risk taker (these days).

I would be less confident if the flight originated elsewhere.

There are others at this site, however, who seem to be quite confident that any visa-exempt passport will continue to get a pass until the end of the so-called leniency period for eTA enforcement. (I think to the contrary, but that is about those with passports from visa-exempt countries subject to eTA. I suspect U.S. citizens flying from the U.S. will continue to get a pass.)

On the other hand, I have personally experienced (for totally different reasons) what it is like to be denied boarding one's flight, and how stressful that is even for someone who can afford some delay and some additional costs. Some of us, like me, are more risk averse than others (or more risk averse now than in the past: I was not always so risk averse, but times change, and after all that's about me). For example, I have an acquaintance who is an American citizen and a Canadian PR, who cancelled her trip last year because she did not obtain a PR card in time . . . but she had flights to Argentina and back, not the U.S. itself.

Still, personally I would chance it. Worst case scenario is a flight or Amtrak to Detroit, taxi to Windsor, whatever from there to Montreal. Or go via Buffalo, New York, then Toronto (however). I like Burlington, personally, but a flight to there seems, well, the hard way home.

By the way, though, if the request for urgent processing was properly documented and assuming you have been living and working in Canada for years, it should not take very long for it to be processed and a new PR card sent. Sure, Quebec can be on a different page regarding such things, so there is no guarantee. But for most of those who run into problems, there is some reason for their running into problems.

Short side of practical reality: neither IRCC nor CBSA will be difficult for a U.S. citizen who does not otherwise pose problematic circumstances. Those on the other side of this fence are probably well aware they are and why.

 

[Ponga]

It is not the eTA program itself which invites concern, but enforcement of the PR rule generally, which requires PRs to present either a PR card or PR Travel Document.

But since U.S. citizens are exempt, why is this even being discussed?

 

[Buletruck]

Worst case, the CBSA officer gives you a verbal smack on the wrist (if they are having a bad day) and sends you on your way. Take the PR card and the receipt. In all my travel experience no one at the airline counter (who essentially do the initial screening) ever asks if you are exempt from an ETA (or similar travel documents) if they aren't required for any country I have travelled to.

 

[dpenabill]

But since U.S. citizens are exempt, why is this even being discussed?

Not only are U.S. citizens exempt from eTA requirements, so are all Canadian PRs. But implementation of the eTA system is having collateral consequences due to changes in the way passengers are screened prior to boarding flights to Canada.


Overall, it is important to distinguish between what is required to board a flight to Canada versus what is involved in the examination at the PoE.

That is, there are important differences between:

pre-boarding screening

versus

examination at PoE for entry into Canada​

For purposes of actual entry into Canada, a Canadian Permanent Resident is entitled (by statute, not by right) to enter Canada; once a border officer is satisfied an individual is a Canadian PR, entry must be allowed, no matter what documents are used to show identity, recognizing that once identity is established the examining CBSA officer at a PoE (with some exceptions for the PoE at certain locations) should be able to readily verify that individual's PR status.

Thus, regardless which country's passport a PR carries, once a PR reaches a Canadian PoE there is very little or no risk of being refused entry into Canada (inadmissible PRs are subject to being reported but cannot be denied entry).


The more salient concern for PRs is screening requirements for being allowed onto commercial transportation headed to Canada.

The current rule for Canadian Permanent Residents is simple and it is the same as it has been for many years:

Prior to boarding a flight to Canada, Canadian PRs are required to display a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document.

That is the rule. This rule applies to ALL Canadian PRs. Any PR who wants to avoid any risk of a problem boarding a flight to Canada should be prepared to present either a PR card or a PR TD.



In actual practice, however, the rule has not been uniformly enforced.

What has changed is the implementation of eTA, which has resulted in changes to the screening process prior to passengers being allowed aboard flights to Canada. Regarding this, IRCC has publicized this will result in the enforcement of the PR rule. That is, for example, that the prior practice of PRs with visa-exempt passports being allowed to board flights to Canada based on showing a visa-exempt passport (not a PR card or PR TD) is, at the least, ending (or has already ended, as of March 15, 2016).

For a Canadian PR who happens to be a U.S. citizen, the question is whether these changes are going to result in the PR rule being enforced against them. It is clear that IRCC intends to enforce the PR rule for PRs from visa-exempt countries, or at least has cautioned that it will. U.S. citizens are not overtly exempted, but the mechanism of enforcement against PRs generally is the screening now done attendant eTA requirements. So will PRs who are U.S. citizens still be able to slip by using their U.S. passports? Maybe. Not in the long run is my guess, not after the end of the eTA leniency period. Maybe not already. But I do not know what the actual practice will be.

I do know what the rule is: PRs need to present either a PR card or PR TD.

For any PR who wants to take no chances, who wants to avoid any risk the PR rule might be enforced despite presenting a visa-exempt or U.S. passport, the only way to do that is to carry a valid PR card or be prepared to obtain a PR TD for the flight back to Canada.

Worst case, the CBSA officer gives you a verbal smack on the wrist (if they are having a bad day) and sends you on your way. Take the PR card and the receipt. In all my travel experience no one at the airline counter (who essentially do the initial screening) ever asks if you are exempt from an ETA (or similar travel documents) if they aren't required for any country I have travelled to.

As to airline screening prior to boarding flights: Past experience offers little or no insight into how the system will work going forward. We are waiting to see reports for how it is currently going, since March 15, 2016, when eTA became mandatory (but still subject to a leniency period, at least for Foreign Nationals, recognizing of course that PRs are NOT Foreign Nationals).

Otherwise, indeed, a PR should encounter no problems at the PoE.

By the way: while those who present a visa-exempt passport and who do not have eTA might be questioned (my guess is that it is highly likely they will be questioned) about not having eTA, this will result from the airline getting a response from the CBSA system which informs the airline the passenger does not have eTA. By fall this will preclude boarding (but for most airports IRCC is promising that most travelers should be able to apply for and obtain eTA in a matter of minutes, after which the passenger should get the necessary approval to board).

That is, the airlines know who has and who does not have eTA. Because now the airline must get pre-approval for each passenger from CBSA (via the automated system). My strong sense is that this same system will alert the airline if a passenger is either a Canadian citizen or a Canadian PR (which is why I guess that the PR rule is already being enforced for those with a visa-exempt passport despite the leniency period).

For those with dual citizenship: As of fall, even a Canadian citizen will be denied boarding a flight to Canada unless the individual presents a Canadian passport or special Travel Document. (Or at least that is what the IRCC web site is cautioning.)

 

[ExpatProf]

This is great information - thanks so much to all who've responded!

What I still don't quite understand is why it might be *more* problematic boarding the airplane in the US than than at the actual PoE on arrival in the airport in Canada? More specifically:

1) Boarding the airplane in the States, can't I just show my US passport, as I always have, and proceed? If they even ask me about my status, since they aren't Canadian gov't officials, couldn't I just say I'm just visiting Canada? And if they pushed, say I'm not a PR of Canada? (See below: I am honestly confused about whether at present with my expired card I am or am not a PR of Canada). Or do the airlines/airports in the US have a system where they can check your PR status? Would I get intro trouble fibbing there?

2) On the other hand, I was assuming I *might* have a *little* (overcome-able?) problem at the PoE, because my PR status has lapsed. Or has it?
All the folks saying that by statute Canada has to accept PRs seem to be discussing people who *have been* PRs, but whose cards are expired (and in my case where the application for renewal is currently being processed) as if they are *still* PRs. Is this true? If you're a "lapsed-card" PR, are you still formally a PR?

Thanks,
ExpatProf

 

[Ponga]

For a Canadian PR who happens to be a U.S. citizen, the question is whether these changes are going to result in the PR rule being enforced against them. It is clear that IRCC intends to enforce the PR rule for PRs from visa-exempt countries, or at least has cautioned that it will. U.S. citizens are not overtly exempted, but the mechanism of enforcement against PRs generally is the screening now done attendant eTA requirements. So will PRs who are U.S. citizens still be able to slip by using their U.S. passports? Maybe. Not in the long run is my guess, not after the end of the eTA leniency period. Maybe not already. But I do not know what the actual practice will be.

I do know what the rule is: PRs need to present either a PR card or PR TD.

For any PR who wants to take no chances, who wants to avoid any risk the PR rule might be enforced despite presenting a visa-exempt or U.S. passport, the only way to do that is to carry a valid PR card or be prepared to obtain a PR TD for the flight back to Canada.


That is, the airlines know who has and who does not have eTA. Because now the airline must get pre-approval for each passenger from CBSA (via the automated system). My strong sense is that this same system will alert the airline if a passenger is either a Canadian citizen or a Canadian PR (which is why I guess that the PR rule is already being enforced for those with a visa-exempt passport despite the leniency period).

Unless, and until, it becomes a crime, or a violation of some form, to NOT voluntarily disclose to a commercial carrier that a U.S. citizen is a PR of Canada, I can't see how this is going to ruin anyone's travel plans.

At last check the eTA exclusion for U.S. citizens has not been retracted, nor has there been any rumblings that this will change...even after the leniency period has expired.

Airlines receiving passenger information from CBSA, for PRs of Canada, was to have been part of Phase III of the Beyond the Border Program. Do you have evidence that this is already in-place? It's nearly impossible to keep track of what is and what is not being implemented now, LOL!

 

[dpenabill]

To be clear, the short answer is:

-- You are a PR; PR status does not lapse or expire

-- No problem at the PoE . . . especially if you present your U.S. passport and your expired PR card

-- Technically, as a PR you are supposed to present either a valid PR card or PR TD to board a flight headed to Canada,
-- -- but in practice you may be allowed to board a flight by displaying your U.S. passport, just as you have in the past



Longer, further explanation, with caveats:

This is great information - thanks so much to all who've responded!

What I still don't quite understand is why it might be *more* problematic boarding the airplane in the US than than at the actual PoE on arrival in the airport in Canada? More specifically:

1) Boarding the airplane in the States, can't I just show my US passport, as I always have, and proceed? If they even ask me about my status, since they aren't Canadian gov't officials, couldn't I just say I'm just visiting Canada? And if they pushed, say I'm not a PR of Canada? (See below: I am honestly confused about whether at present with my expired card I am or am not a PR of Canada). Or do the airlines/airports in the US have a system where they can check your PR status? Would I get intro trouble fibbing there?

2) On the other hand, I was assuming I *might* have a *little* (overcome-able?) problem at the PoE, because my PR status has lapsed. Or has it?
All the folks saying that by statute Canada has to accept PRs seem to be discussing people who *have been* PRs, but whose cards are expired (and in my case where the application for renewal is currently being processed) as if they are *still* PRs. Is this true? If you're a "lapsed-card" PR, are you still formally a PR?

You are formally still a PR:

Expiration of your PR card does not affect what your status is. You are a PR. Once a PR you remain a PR unless it is taken away by a formal adjudicatory decision, you formally surrender status, or you become a citizen of Canada. (Refugees with PR status can also lose PR status if their status as a protected person is terminated by cessation proceedings.)

What would happen if your U.S. passport expires and you do not apply for a replacement? You would still be a U.S. citizen. Same for a Canadian PR and the PR card. Its expiration has nothing to do with what your status actually is.

PR card is nothing like a drivers license for example. (One's status as a licensed driver terminates when the license expires without being renewed.)

There is no such thing as a "lapsed" PR.


PoE screening:

As noted previously, a PR is statutorily entitled to enter Canada; all the PR needs to do is establish identity and status, but establishing identity usually suffices to establish PR status.

Your U.S. passport is connected, in the CBSA and IRCC databases, to your Canadian immigration client number. When the number on your passport is entered into the system, the system will identify you as a client and thus reveal your Canadian status.

It may seem ironic that the PoE screening appears to be easier than the screening for boarding a flight to Canada. But actually this is only true for Canadians, that is those who are either a Canadian citizen or a Canadian PR. Canadian citizens have a Charter Right to enter Canada. Canadian PRs have a statutory entitlement to enter Canada.


Airline screening prior to boarding flight to Canada:

This subject is rendered a little more complicated because of changes taking place. The implementation of eTA is the more obvious, high profile change, but it is just one part of far broader and more pervasive changes generally relative to law, policy, practice, and technology, all of which are part of expanding and enhancing border controls. This includes broad enhancements to record gathering and data access.

As noted in previous posts, enforcement of the rule requiring Canadian PRs to present either a PR card or PR Travel Document was not uniform, and just as you have experienced in the past, generally a PR with a U.S. passport could present that passport and an airline would allow the individual to board a flight to Canada. Indeed, there have been many reports of this practice for PRs with any visa-exempt passports.

You ask, in particular:
"Boarding the airplane in the States, can't I just show my US passport, as I always have, and proceed?"

Maybe you can.

The rule says no, that you must present a PR card or PR TD.

But yes, that was the rule before when in practice you were allowed to board a flight by just presenting your U.S. passport.

We know for sure that IRCC is, at the least, publicizing it will be enforcing the PR rule for those who carry a visa-exempt passport. Unless there is new policy or practice, this will happen for sure by fall when the eTA leniency period ends. Or it may already be the case, since March 15, 2016. As yet we have not seen any credible reports about how this is going, one way or the other.

Since U.S. citizens are also exempt from the eTA there is some question about whether the PR card rule will apply for other visa-exempt PRs but perhaps not for Americans. Hard to know which way this will go.

My guess is that eventually, probably later in the year, the rule is going to be more or less uniformly enforced, including against U.S. citizens. My guess is that it is already being enforced against visa-exempt PRs from countries other than the U.S., but I am not sure of this. My guess is that for now, until the end of summer, there is a fair chance a PR with a U.S. passport can still board a flight to Canada from the U.S. but I am NOT confident about this, let alone certain, absolutely no guarantees.

I am sure, however, that you could travel by car across the border near Detroit. And I suspect (subject to actual rates for transportation to Detroit, and then from Windsor to Montreal) that route would be cheaper and faster than flying via Burlington.

 

[dpenabill]

Unless, and until, it becomes a crime, or a violation of some form, to NOT voluntarily disclose to a commercial carrier that a U.S. citizen is a PR of Canada, I can't see how this is going to ruin anyone's travel plans.

As soon as the passport number is entered into the pre-boarding approval program, now being done through the CBSA system, I believe it will identify those who are Canadians, either citizens or PRs (note that IRCC has recently announced dual citizens will have to have a Canadian passport to fly to Canada by fall).

Whether the system will distinguish visa-exempt PRs versus U.S. citizens, I cannot guess. You are right, it is very difficult to discern what changes have taken effect or what future changes there will be.

Bottom line is that if the system now in place identifies Canadian PRs, the airlines will require those passengers to present either a PR card or PR TD.

At last check the eTA exclusion for U.S. citizens has not been retracted, nor has there been any rumblings that this will change...even after the leniency period has expired.

PRs in general are exempted from eTA.

It is not the lack of eTA which will preclude PRs from boarding a flight to Canada. It is the enforcement of the rule for PRs.

I recognize we do not know for sure to what extent the rule will actually be enforced against PRs generally, or when, or in particular whether it will be enforced against those presenting a U.S. passport.

The rule itself, however, is what it is: regardless which passport a PR is carrying, the rule requires the PR to present either a PR card or PR TD.

Airlines receiving passenger information from CBSA, for PRs of Canada, was to have been part of Phase III of the Beyond the Border Program. Do you have evidence that this is already in-place? It's nearly impossible to keep track of what is and what is not being implemented now, LOL!

The part that matters now is related to eTA and the implementation of the CBSA system which will approve, or not-approve, passengers for boarding flights to Canada. It was the implementation of this interactive system around the world, for all airlines which have flights carrying passengers to Canada, which delayed the full implementation of eTA (it was supposed to have been implemented back in 2014). It is an automated system. I do not know what specifically comes back to the airlines when a passenger's name, passport number, and name of country issuing the passport, is put into the CBSA system. But my understanding is that all passengers' information is put into the system now before a boarding pass is printed. My guess is this will identify PRs as individuals needing to present a PR card or PR TD.

 

[ExpatProf]

Hm, ok. Great clarifications.

So it sounds like it *will* still be a gamble to try to fly back. If they decide to check, my PR status (in it's official but un-renewed state) may well appear on their screen. So no use trying to hide it if they ask. If they don't ask about my status right off the bat, I just give them my US passport first and see if that works. If they do ask about my status, I will first say, "Yes, I am a Canadian PR" and hand them my expired card and hope they may not notice the date. And then in the worst case, if they notice that it's expired and make a fuss about it, I will hand them the copy of the documentation showing the renewal in process. And they they decide whether to let me fly or not.

I guess my (provisionally) last question is:

If I decide to try the USA flight, and *if* they are total sticklers and don't let me fly, would this have any adverse effect on my PR renewal process? Or would the worst thing that could happen be that I'd need to get myself to the US-Canada border in a private car and take it from there?

Thanks so much to the immigration hive-mind out there!
ExpatProf

 

[dpenabill]

I guess my (provisionally) last question is:

If I decide to try the USA flight, and *if* they are total sticklers and don't let me fly, would this have any adverse effect on my PR renewal process? Or would the worst thing that could happen be that I'd need to get myself to the US-Canada border in a private car and take it from there?

Worst thing is not being allowed to board the flight and, indeed, having to find alternative private transportation to a border crossing itself. No impact on your status. (Obviously, do not make misrepresentations to any government officials.)

If you attempt to fly presenting your U.S. passport, please report about how this goes and any other impressions you get from the encounter.

The rules governing the airlines and their screening procedures are standard, and again all the pre-boarding approval now comes through an interactive system maintained and operated by CBSA, but I suspect there is a fair chance of leniency in how the rules are applied when flying between the U.S. and Canada. Whether to gamble on that is a personal choice.

 

[ExpatProf]

Certainly - once I figure out what to do, with Plans A, B, C in place, and am happily back home in Canada, I will report back on how it went.
Thanks again,
ExpatProf

 

[Ponga]

Once again...why would it say that U.S. citizens are exempt, if it's really not true?!

 

[Rob_TO]

Once again...why would it say that U.S. citizens are exempt, if it's really not true?!

US citizens are exempt from eTA requirements. However the issue is if an airline will be able to see a traveler's PR status upon checking into a flight. And if they see a US citizen is in fact a PR of Canada, if the airline then demands nothing short of a valid PR card or PR TD to allow boarding. Or if they will allow a US traveler to fly using just US passport, even though they know they're a PR.

Right now nobody knows if airlines can actually see your PR status without you telling them. All people can do is guess. This will remain a question mark for US travelers indefinitely (even after eTA becomes mandatory in the Fall since US citizens are exempt) until PRs actually report on what happens when they try to check in as a US foreign national and not a PR.

CBSA/CIC have always had grave warnings on their websites that all PRs must be in possession of a PR card or PR TD, this is nothing new. The only real question here is the airline's ability to determine your PR status based on info they now are able to receive during check-in, and how they will enforce rules around PRs flying without a card. Again right now nobody can say with any certainty what info the airline is actually able to see.

 

[dpenabill]

Once again...why would it say that U.S. citizens are exempt, if it's really not true?!

To be clear, U.S. citizens are exempt from the eTA requirements. But the discussion is about a Canadian PR who happens to also be a U.S. citizen. And PRs are also exempt from eTA requirements.

But PRs are subject to the rule that they must present either a PR card or a PR TD to board a flight to Canada.

For this there are no exemptions related to nationality. That is, it does not matter what passport the PR is carrying, whether visa exempt or not, whether eTA exempt or not, whether a U.S. passport or some other passport.

The question is whether or not there will be actual enforcement of the rule for PRs. Not the eTA requirements, but the rule specifically requiring PRs to present a PR card or PR TD.

The reason eTA is relevant to discussions about this is that it is the implementation of the eTA program which has brought about changes to the way passengers are screened prior to boarding flights. That is, the impact on PRs, potentially (I'd say likely) including PRs carrying a U.S. passport, is a collateral consequence of changes in the screening process due to the implementation of eTA.

That is, the impact on PRs carrying a U.S. passport (or a visa-exempt passport) is not about eTA itself, but arises collaterally as a result of eTA being implemented.

Given recent IRCC cautions to dual citizens that by fall all Canadian citizens will need to use their Canadian passport to board a flight to Canada, again regardless what other passport they are carrying, it is clear that the CBSA software for screening passengers identifies Canadians as Canadians. That does NOT tell us when, for sure the rules will be enforced for PRs.

As I have noted in a separate topic, however, it may be telling that IRCC information online specifically references that the rule for dual citizens will not be enforced until the end of the eTA leniency period, but does not include any such reference to its recently updated information for PRs.