Spouse's PR card Expired & Didnot meet RO to renew. Can I Renounce her current PR and Sponsor her?

[BigLeap]

Hi,

I am currently living and working in Canada as a PR. My spouse's PR card is expired and she is unable to travel to Canada. She can't renew or apply for PRTD as she didn't meet the residency obligation and we do not have a serious H&C reason. The reason is just we didn't make our mind to make a permanent move together after receiving PR and it is costing us now.

Due to her current PR status (with an expired PR card), I neither can sponsor her nor she can apply for a TRV.

I am in a dilemma if I should renounce her current PR and sponsor her in the family class to get her to Canada. And while the sponsorship application is in process, I am planning to apply TRV for her.

In this regard, I have two questions:

(1) Will renouncing her current PR affect my future sponsorship application in the family class.
(2) While the sponsorship application is in process, are there chances of getting spousal TRV approved?
(as IRCC may cite not enough ties to home country as we made an intent to permanently reside in Canada by making a sponsorship application)

Kindly let me know if there are any other pilot paths that we can apply for family unification.

Other notes:
-We are married for 11 years and our home country is India.
-Flying to the US and crossing the land border with COPR is out of our reach as don't have any visas to the US.
-Applying for PRTD and/or appealing in H&C conditions may have mixed responses and may only further delay my sponsorship process.

Thank you.

 

[canuck78]

Hi,

I am currently living and working in Canada as a PR. My spouse's PR card is expired and she is unable to travel to Canada. She can't renew or apply for PRTD as she didn't meet the residency obligation and we do not have a serious H&C reason. The reason is just we didn't make our mind to make a permanent move together after receiving PR and it is costing us now.

Due to her current PR status (with an expired PR card), I neither can sponsor her nor she can apply for a TRV.

I am in a dilemma if I should renounce her current PR and sponsor her in the family class to get her to Canada. And while the sponsorship application is in process, I am planning to apply TRV for her.

In this regard, I have two questions:

(1) Will renouncing her current PR affect my future sponsorship application in the family class.
(2) While the sponsorship application is in process, are there chances of getting spousal TRV approved?
(as IRCC may cite not enough ties to home country as we made an intent to permanently reside in Canada by making a sponsorship application)

Kindly let me know if there are any other pilot paths that we can apply for family unification.

Other notes:
-We are married for 11 years and our home country is India.
-Flying to the US and crossing the land border with COPR is out of our reach as don't have any visas to the US.
-Applying for PRTD and/or appealing in H&C conditions may have mixed responses and may only further delay my sponsorship process.

Thank you.

How much time have you spent in Canada during the past 5 years?

 

[jakklondon]

Hi,

I am currently living and working in Canada as a PR. My spouse's PR card is expired and she is unable to travel to Canada. She can't renew or apply for PRTD as she didn't meet the residency obligation and we do not have a serious H&C reason. The reason is just we didn't make our mind to make a permanent move together after receiving PR and it is costing us now.

Due to her current PR status (with an expired PR card), I neither can sponsor her nor she can apply for a TRV.

I am in a dilemma if I should renounce her current PR and sponsor her in the family class to get her to Canada. And while the sponsorship application is in process, I am planning to apply TRV for her.

In this regard, I have two questions:

(1) Will renouncing her current PR affect my future sponsorship application in the family class.
(2) While the sponsorship application is in process, are there chances of getting spousal TRV approved?
(as IRCC may cite not enough ties to home country as we made an intent to permanently reside in Canada by making a sponsorship application)

Kindly let me know if there are any other pilot paths that we can apply for family unification.

Other notes:
-We are married for 11 years and our home country is India.
-Flying to the US and crossing the land border with COPR is out of our reach as don't have any visas to the US.
-Applying for PRTD and/or appealing in H&C conditions may have mixed responses and may only further delay my sponsorship process.

Thank you.

Your spouse can't travel to Canada or apply for admission at the border. If she intends to move to Canada under current circumstances, her PR status is rather an obstacle to her. As such, it would make sense to renounce the PR status and have you sponsor her for PR.

P.S. I can't comprehend the logic behind forcing people to renounce PR status in order to get it again. Some posters note that it's unfair for PR not to live in Canada for ten years and then come to Canada and take advantage of its' benefits. But isn't it what EVERY NEW PR does? None of them EVER lived or paid taxes in Canada, yet they ALL come and become eligible for ALL benefits (some within months, such as healthcare), can go to college paying in state tuition and etc. If the outrage was due to someone staying out of Canada prior to moving in and getting the benefits, then the same would apply to ANY NEWCOMER. So, I thought, what is the REAL motive (not a made up motive for PR purposes) for this harsh take on legal PRs who stay out of Canada? Why EVERY SINGLE PR is encouraged, nay, forced to STAY in Canada at all costs, when , most obviously, there is scarcity of jobs and real estate costs are beyond approachable at the wages the overwhelming majority of these newcomers will earn once in Canada? While I don't know answer to this question (and some may think it's due to f o o l i s h n e s s of policy makers: f o o l s in think tanks and policy making institutions are nothing new to those of us who are familiar with both), I think one possible reason is to drive wages down to near zero by over-saturating labor market with desperate people from all over the world, who are ready to do ANYTHING for ANY pay, no matter how small. And such economic policy does benefit large corporations, who can leverage the pool of potential employees to further lower the wages and living standards of the ordinary Canadians. Letting PRs leave Canada during economic crisis, such as we observe for more than a decade now, would be a wise thing to do, would remove a lot of desperate people looking for jobs, and thus help other Canadians get the jobs and do so at higher rates (as labor pool shrinks, wages will go up).
And what OP did appears to be reasonable: rather than have him and his wife struggle in Canada for years, he appears to have moved in alone, established himself in Canada and is now ready to bring his wife in, who can rely on him while looking for a job (and won't be desperate and forced to take just ANY job with ANY pay), but she now has to renounce her PR status and her husband must sponsor her, starting the whole process De Novo, endure new hardships and delays while reuniting with the spouse. Such a waste!

 

[armoured]

(1) Will renouncing her current PR affect my future sponsorship application in the family class.
(2) While the sponsorship application is in process, are there chances of getting spousal TRV approved?
(as IRCC may cite not enough ties to home country as we made an intent to permanently reside in Canada by making a sponsorship application)

-Applying for PRTD and/or appealing in H&C conditions may have mixed responses and may only further delay my sponsorship process.

Very important - crucial really - whether you are in compliance with residency obligation or not.

Yes, she can renounce, it won't affect future sponsorship.

May or may not get TRV - doubtful anyone can say.

You say applying for PRTD may delay - I'm not sure it will. And since there is a chance that applying for PRTD will be successful (spouse in Canada, covid, blah blah blah life is difficult), there is also a chance it will be quicker overall than other options. This is partly dependent upon how much she is out of compliance / how much time in Canada, but the chances are greater than zero. (And if turned down, also won't harm PR sponsorship)

The downside is that applying for PRTD and getting rejected might harm likelihood of getting TRV, but honestly I'm guessing they have a good idea her goal would be to join you.

 

[BigLeap]

How much time have you spent in Canada during the past 5 years?

I am breaching RO myself. Been here only 1year months during past 5 years. Moved here during peak pandemic to find job and found one. But I now want bring my family in without having to restart the whole process.

 

[armoured]

I am breaching RO myself. Been here only 1year months during past 5 years. Moved here during peak pandemic to find job and found one. But I now want bring my family in without having to restart the whole process.

You cannot sponsor any of them until you are back in compliance with RO.

I don't believe there's any associated risk with your spouse applying for PRTD (even if refused), i.e. it should not trigger review of your compliance.

 

[BigLeap]

Very important - crucial really - whether you are in compliance with residency obligation or not.

Yes, she can renounce, it won't affect future sponsorship.

May or may not get TRV - doubtful anyone can say.

You say applying for PRTD may delay - I'm not sure it will. And since there is a chance that applying for PRTD will be successful (spouse in Canada, covid, blah blah blah life is difficult), there is also a chance it will be quicker overall than other options. This is partly dependent upon how much she is out of compliance / how much time in Canada, but the chances are greater than zero. (And if turned down, also won't harm PR sponsorship)

The downside is that applying for PRTD and getting rejected might harm likelihood of getting TRV, but honestly I'm guessing they have a good idea her goal would be to join you.

Hi, thanks for insight. I am not meeting RO myself. But in the sponsorship application there is no question regarding my RO.

But yeah its very crucial that I meet RO first to sponsor. This takes one more year for me to sponsor her and another year for processing. In that case, I have to rethink if this is all really worth it to stay apart as the times are tough and we really don't know how is tomorrow going to be.

Another thought. As I have gained one year work experience in Canada I am not sure if I can reapply in canadian experience class. This path could be quicker than the first. For that I have give up PR, leave canada and job as I will not have legal status to work. Reenter when I get invitation to apply in CEC class. But who knows as I would have renounced by then, they might find it a good reason not to approve me for PR again.

Not sure if this work experience I gained while being PR even counts for CEC class.

With so many if and buts, I sometimes think why did they at all let me in at the airport.

But trying to be strong and taking one day at a time.

 

[jakklondon]

Why don't you stay 2 years,, accumulate 730 days since your entry and THEN sponsor your wife?
There is no way you file paperwork to sponsor her now & avoid losing PR status for breach of RO, while short of 730 days in Canada. Why even contemplate something so obviously doomed?
If I were you I would have my wife join me in Canada. Get her US visa and have her apply for entry at the border. Let them report her at the border. She can appeal and stay with you a whole year, while her appeal is pending. If her appeal is denied (which is most likely will be denied), then by the time she is ordered removed you may sponsor her. Let immigration attorney handle it from there.

 

[dpenabill]

But in the sponsorship application there is no question regarding my RO.

@armoured has covered what you need to know.

These observations are specifically about the relationship between sponsoring and RO compliance (no more):

In regards to Residency Obligation compliance and a PR sponsoring a family class PR application, the sponsor must have valid PR status to be eligible to sponsor a spouse or child. And that is the first stage of the application process, determining the sponsor's eligibility to be a sponsor.

There are plenty of questions in the application forms, which in conjunction with the sponsor's GCMS records, which might trigger PR status issues, and in particular trigger a Residency Determination. From address and work history, information about the relationship with the sponsored applicant, and again the PR's own GCMS records, the official processing the sponsor's application (to be a sponsor) can usually identify whether there might be a RO compliance issue.

I have not been keeping up with family class PR applications much recently, so I cannot precisely describe the nature and scope of routine inquiry made in this regard. Within the range of issues I do follow, in regards to enforcement of PR obligations, there is little doubt about the RISK that a sponsorship application by a PR not in RO compliance will trigger a Residency Determination, to verify that the PR actually has valid status (is not inadmissible) to sponsor a family member.

Reporting varies, much as there are varying reports about enforcement of PRs at a Port-of-Entry. Many PRs in breach of the RO still report being waived into Canada without getting issued a 44(1) Report, while many others are issued a Report and Departure Order, a decision that terminates their PR status unless they successfully appeal it.

And for a sponsoring PR the procedure is comparable. If in reviewing the application an official identifies an admissibility issue, including inadmissibility for failing to comply with the RO, that can trigger the procedure for conducting a formal Residency Determination. Typically that would mean the PR is sent a request for additional information and documents, and a formal "examination" is held, and if on the date of that examination the PR has not been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years, as of that date, a 44(1) Report is issued and that procedure followed to determine if a Removal Order is to be issued or relief allowed for H&C reasons.

Much like approaching the PoE from abroad: the risk of triggering a RO examination is typically proportionate to the number of days outside Canada compared with the number in Canada, subject to the influence of other factors. Thus, for example, the longer the PR has been in Canada since last being outside Canada, the lower the risk. And, for another example, a PR who has been in Canada for nearly two years, but still short, could gamble that even if they are subject to a formal RO examination, by the time that happens they will have been in Canada long enough they will not be in breach as of then (noting, though, there is probably, not certainly but probably, a good chance this would NOT trigger a Residency Determination; would still be a gamble).

And likewise, similar to applying for a new PR card: the SAFE approach is to wait TWO years (for a PR who was abroad for three or more years prior to returning to Canada) to apply. The difference here is that the PR must include more specific information in the application, in regards to RO compliance, so the non-compliant PR is at higher risk for a formal Residency Determination examination if short. But the overall way things work is similar: the more in breach the PR is, at the time the application is made and at the time the application is opened and screened, the greater the risk the formal examination procedure will be implemented.

 

[armoured]

Another thought. As I have gained one year work experience in Canada I am not sure if I can reapply in canadian experience class. This path could be quicker than the first. For that I have give up PR, leave canada and job as I will not have legal status to work. Reenter when I get invitation to apply in CEC class.

I don't know enough about criteria or that program to comment - except perhaps the generality that PR status that you already have is far more certain.

Likewise not commenting on many other options, including entry through USA for spouse, as you said not realistic.

If you choose to remain to get in compliance and then sponsor your spouse, I still think may be worthwhile to apply for PRTD; if denied, situation is fundamentally same as renouncing first.

 

[jakklondon]

Why don't you think in practical terms? You must have been positively profiled (or discriminated for) at the entry, and thus allowed in without RO questions and secondary inspection. Why it happened is irrelevant now ( I think there is a pattern of whom Canadian border patrol selects most often for secondary inspection, and it's based on parameters that they wouldn't want to be openly advertised, but it's irrelevant to you, or even something that worked to your advantage). The fact is you are in Canada now and you can stay there 730 days to avail yourself of all the privileges of PR status.
Your wife is out, for now. So, why don't you think of how to get her into Canada the fastest way possible, bypassing all kinds of behemothic-bureaucratic hurdles and obstructions that have no rational basis to exist?
You said she can't come to Canadian border via US. I understand that she does not have US visa and/or visa exempt passport. So, why not get her a tourist visa to the US? FYI, our current extraordinarily liberal administration of Mr. Biden prides itself with open border policy: our southern border is virtually non existent, anyone can enter into US at will (millions do, and I am one of those vehemently opposed to it) , our border patrol is ordered by executive order to let everyone in, with mere notice to appear. I am sure overseas visa issuing policies are also much more lenient under this extremely liberal administration, more lenient that it ever was in past. If your spouse wanted to travel to US as a tourist, chances are the local embassy counsul would rush on all four to stamp her passport with tourist visa, in the name of diversity and welcoming anyone who wants to come into US. I am not going to tell you how your spouse should get into the US, that's for you and her to figure out, but as things stand right now getting into the US is way easier than traveling within the borders of certain countries. Get her into Canada via US and then worry about her PR status, as I suggested above.

 

[canuck78]

Your spouse can't travel to Canada or apply for admission at the border. If she intends to move to Canada under current circumstances, her PR status is rather an obstacle to her. As such, it would make sense to renounce the PR status and have you sponsor her for PR.

P.S. I can't comprehend the logic behind forcing people to renounce PR status in order to get it again. Some posters note that it's unfair for PR not to live in Canada for ten years and then come to Canada and take advantage of its' benefits. But isn't it what EVERY NEW PR does? None of them EVER lived or paid taxes in Canada, yet they ALL come and become eligible for ALL benefits (some within months, such as healthcare), can go to college paying in state tuition and etc. If the outrage was due to someone staying out of Canada prior to moving in and getting the benefits, then the same would apply to ANY NEWCOMER. So, I thought, what is the REAL motive (not a made up motive for PR purposes) for this harsh take on legal PRs who stay out of Canada? Why EVERY SINGLE PR is encouraged, nay, forced to STAY in Canada at all costs, when , most obviously, there is scarcity of jobs and real estate costs are beyond approachable at the wages the overwhelming majority of these newcomers will earn once in Canada? While I don't know answer to this question (and some may think it's due to f o o l i s h n e s s of policy makers: f o o l s in think tanks and policy making institutions are nothing new to those of us who are familiar with both), I think one possible reason is to drive wages down to near zero by over-saturating labor market with desperate people from all over the world, who are ready to do ANYTHING for ANY pay, no matter how small. And such economic policy does benefit large corporations, who can leverage the pool of potential employees to further lower the wages and living standards of the ordinary Canadians. Letting PRs leave Canada during economic crisis, such as we observe for more than a decade now, would be a wise thing to do, would remove a lot of desperate people looking for jobs, and thus help other Canadians get the jobs and do so at higher rates (as labor pool shrinks, wages will go up).
And what OP did appears to be reasonable: rather than have him and his wife struggle in Canada for years, he appears to have moved in alone, established himself in Canada and is now ready to bring his wife in, who can rely on him while looking for a job (and won't be desperate and forced to take just ANY job with ANY pay), but she now has to renounce her PR status and her husband must sponsor her, starting the whole process De Novo, endure new hardships and delays while reuniting with the spouse. Such a waste!

Canada favours immigration of young people and their families to balance out our ageing population, so that they can work and pay taxes for decades and because most have better success the earlier they move to Canada. If people leave Canada for 10 years and return in their late 40s or 50s then they would spend less time contributing to the tax base before retirement.

 

[jakklondon]

Canada favours immigration of young people and their families to balance out our ageing population, so that they can work and pay taxes for decades and because most have better success the earlier they move to Canada. If people leave Canada for 10 years and return in their late 40s or 50s then they would spend less time contributing to the tax base before retirement.

I will not disagree, you have a point there. But then - stop bringing more skilled immigrants into Canada. Halt the immigration until the ones in Canada get the jobs in their respective fields, and you have such a shortage of labor that you must bring more people in. That's better than bringing hundreds of thousands and then punishing and stripping of status many of them who can't get a suitable job and leave Canada for better prospects elsewhere.

 

[canuck78]

I will not disagree, you have a point there. But then - stop bringing more skilled immigrants into Canada. Halt the immigration until the ones in Canada get the jobs in their respective fields, and you have such a shortage of labor that you must bring more people in. That's better than bringing hundreds of thousands and then punishing and stripping of status many of them who can't get a suitable job and leave Canada for better prospects elsewhere.

There is a skill mismatch which Canada tries to address but it’s quite difficult and you can’t force people to live in certain areas and work in certain industries. People don’t only leave because of job opportunities.

 

[jakklondon]

There is a skill mismatch which Canada tries to address but it’s quite difficult and you can’t force people to live in certain areas and work in certain industries.

The easiest way to address this issue is to reduce PR visas to such number/skills as actually required by Canada. If jobs are limited to certain industries/locations, then PR visas should state so. "You, John Doe, will have to move to Alberta and work in oil rigs if you want to immigrate to Canada. Don't like cold weather? Don't like working for oil industry? Too bad! You are not qualified for a PR status."

People don’t only leave because of job opportunities.

Surely they don't. Some may have reasons completely unrelated to job opportunities. But I have an impression that an awful a lot leave and breach RO due to lack of job opportunities. If you don't factor in the job opportunities, Canada is much nicer country to live in than the US. But we don't have a problem with RO in the US. Why do you think so many PRs leave Canada and stay in US, if not because of job opportunities?