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PR Renewal - Working Abroad

steaky

VIP Member
Nov 11, 2008
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It's not that I'm not planning to return but I have important work I'm doing abroad at the moment, also including the government relationships and I wouldn't want to leave the projects I'm currently following before their completion. Returning to Canada would mean changing my job or at least changing the role inside the same organization but I'm not really looking forward to that at the moment.
Then couldn't you talk to your employer so that it appears you work as a full-time employee in Canada and then transfer you to the other country to continue the role you left off?

You said you are supposed to travel for work to Canada at the beginning of next year.
 
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steaky

VIP Member
Nov 11, 2008
14,305
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Job Offer........
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That would be fraud.
Why would it be fraud?

The poster said he supposed to travel for work to Canada at the beginning of next year (with same company I presume?). Couldn't he talk to his employer to change as full time employee in Canada by this time? If afterwards, his employer transfer him abroad to continue what he left off in the other country, can't they do so?

@dpenabill
Or you guys suggest that poster to give up his role of posting in another country and focus meeting RO by physically living in Canada which will mean he changed his job or a new role in the company?
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,969
12,771
Why would it be fraud?

The poster said he supposed to travel for work to Canada at the beginning of next year (with same company I presume?). Couldn't he talk to his employer to change as full time employee in Canada by this time? If afterwards, his employer transfer him abroad to continue what he left off in the other country, can't they do so?

@dpenabill
Or you guys suggest that poster to give up his role of posting in another country and focus meeting RO by physically living in Canada which will mean he changed his job or a new role in the company?
An employer indicating that you were working in Canada when you aren't is fraud. Unless OP plans on returning to live in Canada and remaining in Canada the employer can not declare that OP is working full-time in Canada. All the previous time abroad will not count towards RO no matter what. Based on OP's employment history of working abroad for the company for numerous years OP would need to return to Canada and work for an extended period in the Canadian offices before a transfer abroad would be counted towards RO. If time working in Canada was short it would appear as though OP was temporarily been transferred to Canada before returning abroad. To count time working abroad for a Canadian employer you have to have worked for the employer in Canada and the transfer abroad is supposed to be temporary with plans to return to work in Canada.

It is up to OP to decide whether they want to attempt to return to Canada. If OP has not met the pretty specific requirements to count time working abroad there is nothing they can do to be able to count those days towards there RO.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,268
3,028
No expertise necessary to give advice like "good idea to see a lawyer." And, indeed, IF keeping PR status is important for @santaita7, that is probably the best advice anyone here can offer.



@dpenabill
Or you guys suggest that poster to give up his role of posting in another country and focus meeting RO by physically living in Canada which will mean he changed his job or a new role in the company?
I am not qualified to give personal advice, and particularly not anywhere near sufficiently informed of the relevant facts to suggest how the OP navigate the situation (other than the obvious, such as "see a lawyer").

I am, however, well enough informed to recognize that creating or manipulating documentation to fit, so to say, for the purpose of qualifying for a credit, rather than provide straight-forward, honest information and documentation accurately showing what the facts are (in this instance, that would be showing what the employment is and its true terms), is at best a recipe risking a perception of deception . . . and potentially outright fraud, perhaps even criminal fraud.


BEYOND THAT . . .

Sorting out the facts in a complex claim for RO credit based on time working-abroad-for-a-Canadian-business, or as employed in the federal public administration or the public service of a province, can be difficult.

BUT most of the cases seen in this forum are not really all that complex. Most of these cases tend to not even come close.

I have more than occasionally commented that "Actually qualifying for the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit toward PR RO tends to be very tricky for any PR who actually needs the credit." And overstating things some, but not by a lot, I have sometimes commented that if the PR needs the credit, then it is unlikely he or she qualifies for the credit.

I have addressed this credit and related issues, with numerous citations and links to OFFICIAL sources (botched many of the links, so the url needs to be copied rather than clicked on to get to the source), at length in multiple threads, including a topic titled "Working Abroad RO credit, including "business trips;" an update" which is here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/working-abroad-ro-credit-including-business-trips-an-update.607559/ (noting, though, that discussion is now nearly two years old, and that particular one is largely focused on whether so-called "business trips" earn credit toward RO compliance; nonetheless the discussion is relevant and the linked sources informative).

Which is largely background for why I tend to agree with the skepticism offered here. It appears the credit is not available in the situation the OP describes.

BUT . . . BUT the DETAILS MATTER. Details as to who the employer is. Details as to the precise terms of employment, including terms specifically in regards to the position itself.

Which leads to . . .

I was a consultant in Canada and then I was offered a full time job but to be located abroad. Will this be an issue then?
Again, as others have cautioned, the situation APPEARS to be one in which the RO credit for days working abroad is NOT likely applicable. BUT whether that is actually the case depends on the details, including details of a sort which should not be shared in a forum like this.

And then there is the question whether the OP (@santaita7) honestly AND reasonably believed that the employment arrangement would qualify for the credit, and perhaps obtain H&C relief allowing the OP to keep PR status based on this. Which gets into an even deeper level of detail. But, which also depends on what the OP's plans are going forward, and on the OP's priorities, how important it is for the OP to keep Canadian PR status.

The OP can travel to Canada while the PR card is still valid and see how things go, and make decisions about how to proceed after that.

If keeping Canadian PR status is a priority for the OP, it would probably be best to obtain the assistance of a qualified, reputable immigration LAWYER (not just a consultant). Sooner is better. Or, at least upon returning to Canada and seeing how things went at the PoE.
 

shobasrin

Full Member
Nov 3, 2014
44
29
Dear Experts,
I need your advise with regards to my son's PR renewal application (residency obligation concerns).
My son got his PR when he was already enrolled in an American university. He had to continue his education for another 3 years and then he got assigned to a practical training within US for further 2 years. He is really short of RO days. now
We have submitted his PR renewal application with a clear letter explaining his situation and highlighting the fact that his family is based in canada. Application submitted on July 27 and received AOR on October 16, 2020 with a status "In Process" from then.
There is no movement on the application for us to take any further action. His PR card will expire in Feb'21 and will be difficult for him to visit us in Calgary.
He is planning to complete his training by April21 and return to live in Canada.

Can anyone advise on what to expect on his application?
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,969
12,771
Dear Experts,
I need your advise with regards to my son's PR renewal application (residency obligation concerns).
My son got his PR when he was already enrolled in an American university. He had to continue his education for another 3 years and then he got assigned to a practical training within US for further 2 years. He is really short of RO days. now
We have submitted his PR renewal application with a clear letter explaining his situation and highlighting the fact that his family is based in canada. Application submitted on July 27 and received AOR on October 16, 2020 with a status "In Process" from then.
There is no movement on the application for us to take any further action. His PR card will expire in Feb'21 and will be difficult for him to visit us in Calgary.
He is planning to complete his training by April21 and return to live in Canada.

Can anyone advise on what to expect on his application?
Unfortunately meeting RO is pretty cut and dry since I assume he is an adult. He made a personal choice to attend school in the US knowing he would not meet his RO. He shouldn't have applied for renewal and tried to enter the land border and plead his case. How many days has he been in Canada 5 years after his landing date?
 
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YVR123

VIP Member
Jul 27, 2017
6,540
2,499
Dear Experts,
I need your advise with regards to my son's PR renewal application (residency obligation concerns).
My son got his PR when he was already enrolled in an American university. He had to continue his education for another 3 years and then he got assigned to a practical training within US for further 2 years. He is really short of RO days. now
We have submitted his PR renewal application with a clear letter explaining his situation and highlighting the fact that his family is based in canada. Application submitted on July 27 and received AOR on October 16, 2020 with a status "In Process" from then.
There is no movement on the application for us to take any further action. His PR card will expire in Feb'21 and will be difficult for him to visit us in Calgary.
He is planning to complete his training by April21 and return to live in Canada.

Can anyone advise on what to expect on his application?
Since he seems young and had all these education and training, may be he can apply (after losing his PR) for his own PR when he is ready to move back.
Or he only wants to visit his parents, then he can just get TRV.
 

shobasrin

Full Member
Nov 3, 2014
44
29
Thanks Canuck78 for your response. My son would have hardly spent 6 months in canada through various visits.
My query is about the next steps CIC will take on his application. The application status is "In process for nearly 2 months without any action.
 

Buletruck

VIP Member
May 18, 2015
6,681
2,529
Regardless of the explanation letter, you should be preparing for his renewal to be rejected and his PR revoked.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,969
12,771
Thanks Canuck78 for your response. My son would have hardly spent 6 months in canada through various visits.
My query is about the next steps CIC will take on his application. The application status is "In process for nearly 2 months without any action.
That is a very normal timeframe. There are delays due to covid and in case where there isn't with meeting RO it generally takes longer. I also agree that he should be preparing to lose his PR although you'll need to wait and see what happens.
 

santaita7

Full Member
Sep 28, 2015
41
0
No expertise necessary to give advice like "good idea to see a lawyer." And, indeed, IF keeping PR status is important for @santaita7, that is probably the best advice anyone here can offer.





I am not qualified to give personal advice, and particularly not anywhere near sufficiently informed of the relevant facts to suggest how the OP navigate the situation (other than the obvious, such as "see a lawyer").

I am, however, well enough informed to recognize that creating or manipulating documentation to fit, so to say, for the purpose of qualifying for a credit, rather than provide straight-forward, honest information and documentation accurately showing what the facts are (in this instance, that would be showing what the employment is and its true terms), is at best a recipe risking a perception of deception . . . and potentially outright fraud, perhaps even criminal fraud.


BEYOND THAT . . .

Sorting out the facts in a complex claim for RO credit based on time working-abroad-for-a-Canadian-business, or as employed in the federal public administration or the public service of a province, can be difficult.

BUT most of the cases seen in this forum are not really all that complex. Most of these cases tend to not even come close.

I have more than occasionally commented that "Actually qualifying for the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit toward PR RO tends to be very tricky for any PR who actually needs the credit." And overstating things some, but not by a lot, I have sometimes commented that if the PR needs the credit, then it is unlikely he or she qualifies for the credit.

I have addressed this credit and related issues, with numerous citations and links to OFFICIAL sources (botched many of the links, so the url needs to be copied rather than clicked on to get to the source), at length in multiple threads, including a topic titled "Working Abroad RO credit, including "business trips;" an update" which is here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/working-abroad-ro-credit-including-business-trips-an-update.607559/ (noting, though, that discussion is now nearly two years old, and that particular one is largely focused on whether so-called "business trips" earn credit toward RO compliance; nonetheless the discussion is relevant and the linked sources informative).

Which is largely background for why I tend to agree with the skepticism offered here. It appears the credit is not available in the situation the OP describes.

BUT . . . BUT the DETAILS MATTER. Details as to who the employer is. Details as to the precise terms of employment, including terms specifically in regards to the position itself.

Which leads to . . .



Again, as others have cautioned, the situation APPEARS to be one in which the RO credit for days working abroad is NOT likely applicable. BUT whether that is actually the case depends on the details, including details of a sort which should not be shared in a forum like this.

And then there is the question whether the OP (@santaita7) honestly AND reasonably believed that the employment arrangement would qualify for the credit, and perhaps obtain H&C relief allowing the OP to keep PR status based on this. Which gets into an even deeper level of detail. But, which also depends on what the OP's plans are going forward, and on the OP's priorities, how important it is for the OP to keep Canadian PR status.

The OP can travel to Canada while the PR card is still valid and see how things go, and make decisions about how to proceed after that.

If keeping Canadian PR status is a priority for the OP, it would probably be best to obtain the assistance of a qualified, reputable immigration LAWYER (not just a consultant). Sooner is better. Or, at least upon returning to Canada and seeing how things went at the PoE.
Thank you very much. Your insight is much appreciated.
 

shobasrin

Full Member
Nov 3, 2014
44
29
Thanks everyone for your response. Really helpful.

Still hoping for the best!
Still no response from CIC on PR renewal application....not sure how to approach as the PR card has also expired and he cannot travel to calgary. PRTD application seems to be as detailed as PR renewal and RO shortfall will impact this as well!!
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
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Toronto
Category........
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App. Filed.......
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01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Still no response from CIC on PR renewal application....not sure how to approach as the PR card has also expired and he cannot travel to calgary. PRTD application seems to be as detailed as PR renewal and RO shortfall will impact this as well!!
Your son's application is not straight forward since he doesn't meet RO. I think it's reasonable to assume his application will be sent for secondary review which means it will take longer to process.