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PR Approved despite failing RO based on HC grounds.. now stuck waiting for PRTD

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
@scylla, thank you for your insight! You are correct, I asked around and one of my friends also recently got a US Visa interview early because she just kept checking for interview dates, and a date opened up in April 2022 instead of the 2023 dates. I have since applied for a US Visa and actually just paid today in order to be able to schedule an interview. Here's hoping that comes through!

@armoured I see exactly what you mean. In retrospect, it does seem like that was not the choice I had to make. I had read up on the due process and the differences between a valid PR Card and PR status and how an expired PR card doesn't correlate to no PR status and was aware of these when applying. I think my main hope was that it would be accepted while I was in Canada so that I could travel to Canada as soon as I would get done with my education.

@jakklondon Apologies if I wasn't clear in my post! I had applied for a PR Card renewal in June 2020, and had to come back to Pakistan in September 2020 in order to appear for my final exams. Granted, with COVID they did get delayed to February, but that was happening on a month-to-month basis so when I'd left in September 2020, the scheduled exam dates were supposed to be in October 2020. My PR Card Renewal got approved based on HnC in February 2021. So it wasn't that I left the country after being granted HnC relief as that was only granted in Feb 2021.

@dpenabill You've just about hit the nail on the head. It seems clear in retrospect, but never is while we're going through such situations. Would it have been better had I frozen my education and stayed in Canada for a year and then some to ensure I'm within my RO? I now personally think the benefits of staying within RO far outweigh a year lost in the education pathway, especially considering I wouldn't have been frozen in time and still would have been able to either work / develop other skills / study for other exams. But that's all in the past now.

UPDATE:

My PRTD Application was refused today based on failure to meet RO, and the officer did not find my HnC considerations satisfactory enough to justify retention of my PR. I have the option to appeal my case within 60 days, which I'll likely be doing.

According to the letter, based on the information I provided I am NOT ( yes they capitalised it :( )entitled to a travel document and will have to apply seperately asking for permission to travel to Canada in order to attend my hearing. This was confusing to me, as I was under the impression that if I had been in Canada within a year of my application I would be entitled to a travel document (this specific part is also written in a seperate letter they sent to me in the same email) letting me return to Canada until my hearing. It seems like they only considered it from the date of them writing a refusal and not a year from the date that I applied.

As always, highly welcome any input. I should have utilised this forum a long time ago and might have made better-guided decisions if I had.
I'm curious if anyone has any information regarding how long an appeals process is taking these days? I couldn't find many recent threads.
A small part of me is saying to just not appeal and revoke my PR status voluntarily just so I'll be able to get a visa to visit at least, and apply for a skilled worker immigration as a doctor later on in life. I wonder if an appeals process might harm that later on?
 

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
hi bilaljah, I'm planning to renew my husband pr card under h&c also.if you dnt mind can you able to help me how did u do all the forms?my husband got an accident twice that's why he wasn't able to join me here.
Sorry for the late reply! Do message me directly on this forum and I can guide you with what I know best about applying based on HnC. Take note that I did get refused though.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
92,829
20,490
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
According to the letter, based on the information I provided I am NOT ( yes they capitalised it :( )entitled to a travel document and will have to apply seperately asking for permission to travel to Canada in order to attend my hearing. This was confusing to me, as I was under the impression that if I had been in Canada within a year of my application I would be entitled to a travel document (this specific part is also written in a seperate letter they sent to me in the same email) letting me return to Canada until my hearing. It seems like they only considered it from the date of them writing a refusal and not a year from the date that I applied.
You were last in Canada in 2020, correct? If so, that's over a year ago and that's why you don't fall under the 1 year rule for obtaining a travel document.
 

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
You were last in Canada in 2020, correct? If so, that's over a year ago and that's why you don't fall under the 1 year rule for obtaining a travel document.
Yeap! That makes sense. I just thought (or hoped, rather) it would count for the year preceding me submitting my application (in June 2020) so would’ve been within one year if it were counted like that.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
92,829
20,490
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
As always, highly welcome any input. I should have utilised this forum a long time ago and might have made better-guided decisions if I had.
I'm curious if anyone has any information regarding how long an appeals process is taking these days? I couldn't find many recent threads.
A small part of me is saying to just not appeal and revoke my PR status voluntarily just so I'll be able to get a visa to visit at least, and apply for a skilled worker immigration as a doctor later on in life. I wonder if an appeals process might harm that later on?
Two other comments...

I believe that appeals are taking around 2 years but wait for someone to confirm that.

The appeal won't harm your ability to apply for PR in the future. You just can't do both at the same time. If you want to go ahead with the appeal, you'll need to let that play out and either succeed or not. If you don't succeed, then you can apply for PR under an economic stream. But you can't reapply for PR while you have an appeal still in progress.
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
@jakklondon Apologies if I wasn't clear in my post! I had applied for a PR Card renewal in June 2020, and had to come back to Pakistan in September 2020 in order to appear for my final exams. Granted, with COVID they did get delayed to February, but that was happening on a month-to-month basis so when I'd left in September 2020, the scheduled exam dates were supposed to be in October 2020. My PR Card Renewal got approved based on HnC in February 2021. So it wasn't that I left the country after being granted HnC relief as that was only granted in Feb 2021.


UPDATE:

My PRTD Application was refused today based on failure to meet RO, and the officer did not find my HnC considerations satisfactory enough to justify retention of my PR. I have the option to appeal my case within 60 days, which I'll likely be doing.

According to the letter, based on the information I provided I am NOT ( yes they capitalised it :( )entitled to a travel document and will have to apply seperately asking for permission to travel to Canada in order to attend my hearing. This was confusing to me, as I was under the impression that if I had been in Canada within a year of my application I would be entitled to a travel document (this specific part is also written in a seperate letter they sent to me in the same email) letting me return to Canada until my hearing. It seems like they only considered it from the date of them writing a refusal and not a year from the date that I applied.

As always, highly welcome any input. I should have utilised this forum a long time ago and might have made better-guided decisions if I had.
I'm curious if anyone has any information regarding how long an appeals process is taking these days? I couldn't find many recent threads.
A small part of me is saying to just not appeal and revoke my PR status voluntarily just so I'll be able to get a visa to visit at least, and apply for a skilled worker immigration as a doctor later on in life. I wonder if an appeals process might harm that later on?
I see. In any event, it seems like staying in Canada as PR is very important to you. I can tell that by seeing the length you went to in order to stay and return to Canada. You see, I also made a decision to stay out of Canada and I knew about consequences of RO, but I decided it's OK to give up PR status in Canada, because I didn't want to stay there desperately looking for menial jobs just to survive. If staying in Canada was so important to me, or if permanently staying in the US was unacceptable option to me, there is no way I would have taken the chances and left Canada the way you did. You made a mistake, you wanted to have a cake and eat it too. You took chances in hopes that it would work. Unfortunately, it didn't work. Now, your only option is to give up your PR entirely, or return there for appeal purposes, which you will most likely loose.

As to the rest of your inquiry, the appeals process depends on how backlogged system is. It used to be 1 year, now some posters claim it takes 2 years. But you never know exactly how long it will take to get your case decided. Tomorrow, Parliament may pass a new law to eliminate a backlog and everything could be streamlined and processed in a matter of couple of months (this actually happened in the US: there were periods of extreme backlogs, then drastic cuts in waiting times as a result of new regulations , then new backlogs clogging the system again and etc.).
The appeals process is totally legal and shouldn't do you any harm, as long as you promptly leave Canada in event you are ordered removed. Just don't overstay and don't do anything illegal. Of course, you have to decide what you want to do.
 

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
Update: Have worked out a date this month for an Alternative Dispute Resolution for my PRTD Refusal Appeal, after I provided additional documentation. The Visa Officer's notes had glaring errors in them about my situation, and I hope proving those wrong are all that it takes to allow me to re-enter. I have not chosen any counsel / lawyer to aid me in this.

Does anyone have any experience / know about what to focus on in an ADR? Should I most definitely try to retain a lawyer with such short notice? Apparently the counsel isn't supposed to talk all that much during an ADR anyways.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,969
12,771
Update: Have worked out a date this month for an Alternative Dispute Resolution for my PRTD Refusal Appeal, after I provided additional documentation. The Visa Officer's notes had glaring errors in them about my situation, and I hope proving those wrong are all that it takes to allow me to re-enter. I have not chosen any counsel / lawyer to aid me in this.

Does anyone have any experience / know about what to focus on in an ADR? Should I most definitely try to retain a lawyer with such short notice? Apparently the counsel isn't supposed to talk all that much during an ADR anyways.
Somewhat unrelated but is your goal to pursue a residency and to practice medicine? If so, there are huge chances that you will need to leave Canada and continue not to meet your RO to do so. Are you planning on pursuing medicine and if so in what speciality? If,for example, you want to become a radiologist you will need to leave Canada and will not meet your RO again even if you are eventually able to retain your PR status. These are some of the things I would be considering depending on your longterm plans. Unfortunately we see cases like yours when people finish their medical education abroad or return home to pursue medical education after living in Canada. Most are unaware that they will face huge hurdles reentering the Canadian medical system and that residency spots is the major stumbling block for IMGs.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,268
3,028
Update: Have worked out a date this month for an Alternative Dispute Resolution for my PRTD Refusal Appeal, after I provided additional documentation. The Visa Officer's notes had glaring errors in them about my situation, and I hope proving those wrong are all that it takes to allow me to re-enter. I have not chosen any counsel / lawyer to aid me in this.

Does anyone have any experience / know about what to focus on in an ADR? Should I most definitely try to retain a lawyer with such short notice? Apparently the counsel isn't supposed to talk all that much during an ADR anyways.
In following PR RO cases in the forum for many years, I do not recall any reports about dealing with ADR in an appeal. I do not read every post, not close, so that does not necessarily mean no one has reported personal experience with ADR in an appeal, but it is at best not something we ordinarily see here.

I do not recall seeing it discussed in the scores of published decisions in IAD appeals that I have read.

Your situation appeared to be in best-to-have-a-lawyer territory at the least from when the PR TD application was denied. Yeah, will be very difficult to get professional assistance on such a short time line.

Some errors are more significant than other errors. Without trying to unravel the more technical legalities, the key overriding factors, ultimately, are:
(1) were you in compliance with the RO as of the date of the PR TD application, and​
(2) if not, are your H&C reasons sufficient to warrant keeping PR status despite the breach of the RO​

PLEASE let us know how this goes. It would be very helpful for others to know that ADR is possible and to know something about how that goes.
 
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Ped1994

Star Member
May 24, 2022
81
5
May I ask on which month of 2020 did you apply for hnc renewal and what supportive documents did you include?
 

furrukhrao

Hero Member
Jun 13, 2015
321
92
Hi Bilal,

Lawyer or Crossing the Border is the best option. PRTD is for those who established and living in Canada usually they do a check on your Job/Mortgage before they process the PRTD Documents.
 

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
Update for all: The conclusion of my ADR was to go to a full hearing. I was really discouraged after that but and was contemplating not doing a full hearing but the Early Resolutions Officer (whose job it is to advise based on his experience of if an appeal could be successful or to just drop it because he doesn’t think it would be successful) encouraged me as well saying he thinks I have a chance.

My Residency Obligation Appeal Hearing was successful based on HnC grounds, based on the fact that my family is in Canada, I have little to no ties to Pakistan, I haven’t lived in Pakistan for all my life, I don’t own property here, I plan on practicing Medicine in Canada, and an excellent grasp of the English language. I represented myself (a good lawyer was costing $8000) and had called my uncle who lives in Canada as a witness but they were satisfied with my reasons and stated they didn’t need him to testify.
It was nerve-wracking. It only lasted an hour and a half but I was asked just about everything under the sun.

This ordeal of being stuck abroad has truly been a rollercoaster and has taught me a great many things.

Thank you all for your advice, especially @dpenabill for your thoroughly comprehensive and objective input.

If there’s anything above that I’m not supposed to mention on a public forum, do mention and I’ll remove it.
 
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bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
May I ask on which month of 2020 did you apply for hnc renewal and what supportive documents did you include?
I applied for HnC renewal of my PR card in September 2020, and was informed that it was approved and that I would be contacted to come pick it up in person, but since I was already outside of Canada I couldn’t do that and was never contacted. I applied seperately for a PRTD from Pakistan in June/July 2021 and got refused for that in February 2022. I appealed the PRTD refusal in April, and just had my PRTD Appeal hearing (After an unsuccessful Alternate Dispute Resolution in November 2022) in January 2023.

I included every document I could think of, and as time passed I thought of more and more documents to include. By the end of my hearing, I had included proof of my travel history, a comprehensive custom letter from my college stating I attended, the schedules for my exams every year (since I would only be able to visit Canada during my study leave), proof that I hadn’t lived in Pakistan my entire life etc. Any document you can think of to include that is relevant and supports whatever you say, include it, even if it’s a bit of a hassle obtaining it or you have to jump through hoops.
 
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