PR Approved despite failing RO based on HC grounds.. now stuck waiting for PRTD

[bilaljah]

Hi there! I have a bit of a complex situation and could use some insight!

My family immigrated to Canada from Qatar in 2015 while I was enrolled in Medical School in Pakistan and we all got PRs. I visited every year for as long as my schedule would allow, with my final plan being to move back to Canada with them after I graduate from Medical School. By the time my PR Card expired (expiry of September 2020), I had spent a total of 6-7 months (I know, well within breach of the RO) in Canada.

While I was in Canada during the summer of 2020 and within 6 months of PR Expiry, I applied to renew my PR Card based on HnC grounds and came back to Pakistan in September to appear for my Final Year Exams. That application was approved to my delight around February 2021, and I was told that my PR Card is ready for In-Person Pickup and I will be contacted for whenever that will be. By the time it was approved however, I was already in Pakistan.

I graduated in April of 2021, and applied for a PRTD based on HnC grounds in June 2021 in order to move back to Canada with my family. I would have thought that since my PR Card has already been approved based on HnC grounds, and I haven't gotten the chance to go pick it up yet, my PRTD would be processed swiftly since the situation is pretty much the same. Almost 8 months have elapsed since I applied and it's still in the Abu Dhabi Office for processing.

This whole ordeal has taken a serious toll on my mental health, not knowing where I'm going to be the next month, having to change around any and all plans I had for my career, separated from my family and hearing them going through their own hardships while I'm stuck here and can't help in any way. I even tried to ask IRCC if they could give me any kind of estimate of when it could get done, just so that I could plan my life out in some way but they couldn't provide any.

I contacted CBSA to inquire about crossing the land border in a private vehicle with my situation, but even the person on the phone couldn't give me a guarantee that I would be let in because at the end of the day it depends on the Border Officer on that day and if I can satisfy him that I'm a PR. It felt like too much of a risk to pack everything up here, move out, potentially get denied entry and have to return back to Pakistan, and now my US Visa is expired too so that option is gone.

My family found a government-certified immigration consultant in Pakistan who was super confident that he can get me my PRTD in a month and a half max but at a steep price. I'm heavily considering it. My question right now is, would starting a new PRTD Application through this person negatively affect my current application / prospects? I just don't want to ruin my chances. Like would IRCC view it negatively like 'you already have an application going, why are you wasting our resources with another one'.

Looking forward to any insight / your own personal experiences. Thank you!

 

[scylla]

Hi there! I have a bit of a complex situation and could use some insight!

My family immigrated to Canada from Qatar in 2015 while I was enrolled in Medical School in Pakistan and we all got PRs. I visited every year for as long as my schedule would allow, with my final plan being to move back to Canada with them after I graduate from Medical School. By the time my PR Card expired (expiry of September 2020), I had spent a total of 6-7 months (I know, well within breach of the RO) in Canada.

While I was in Canada during the summer of 2020 and within 6 months of PR Expiry, I applied to renew my PR Card based on HnC grounds and came back to Pakistan in September to appear for my Final Year Exams. That application was approved to my delight around February 2021, and I was told that my PR Card is ready for In-Person Pickup and I will be contacted for whenever that will be. By the time it was approved however, I was already in Pakistan.

I graduated in April of 2021, and applied for a PRTD based on HnC grounds in June 2021 in order to move back to Canada with my family. I would have thought that since my PR Card has already been approved based on HnC grounds, and I haven't gotten the chance to go pick it up yet, my PRTD would be processed swiftly since the situation is pretty much the same. Almost 8 months have elapsed since I applied and it's still in the Abu Dhabi Office for processing.

This whole ordeal has taken a serious toll on my mental health, not knowing where I'm going to be the next month, having to change around any and all plans I had for my career, separated from my family and hearing them going through their own hardships while I'm stuck here and can't help in any way. I even tried to ask IRCC if they could give me any kind of estimate of when it could get done, just so that I could plan my life out in some way but they couldn't provide any.

I contacted CBSA to inquire about crossing the land border in a private vehicle with my situation, but even the person on the phone couldn't give me a guarantee that I would be let in because at the end of the day it depends on the Border Officer on that day and if I can satisfy him that I'm a PR. It felt like too much of a risk to pack everything up here, move out, potentially get denied entry and have to return back to Pakistan, and now my US Visa is expired too so that option is gone.

My family found a government-certified immigration consultant in Pakistan who was super confident that he can get me my PRTD in a month and a half max but at a steep price. I'm heavily considering it. My question right now is, would starting a new PRTD Application through this person negatively affect my current application / prospects? I just don't want to ruin my chances. Like would IRCC view it negatively like 'you already have an application going, why are you wasting our resources with another one'.

Looking forward to any insight / your own personal experiences. Thank you!

- Unfortunately we are seeeing PRTD processing take some time these days and processing times are generally even longer if it involves H&C. If you could do this all over again, I would have suggested to wait until you complete your classes and are ready to move to Canada permanently, re-enter Canada through the US border using your expired PR card, and then apply to renew your PR card under H&C.
- It's impossible for an immigration consultant to guarantee a positive and fast result. I would stay away from this person and not hire them. That's just my two cents. You also don't want to have two application in progress at once. If you want to submit a second application then you would need to withdraw the first.
- Assuming you have a valid US visa and meet US entry requirements, you can certainly fly to the US and then re-enter Canada through a land border. You cannot be refused entry. You can be reported for failing to meet the residency requirement by CBSA. However they will still let you into Canada. If you go this route, make sure you plan for the fact that you must take a molecular COVID test once you reach Canada and wait for the results to become available before crossing into Canada. COVID testing is challenging in the US right now (short supply). But it sounds like this option may be out if your US visa has already expired.

 

[bilaljah]

- It seemed like too big of a risk at the time to have moved out without a guarantee that I'd be let back in to Canada, then have to move back in to Pakistan all over again. I do regret not taking it though, at this point.

- You're right. That makes sense. I will be cautious of this person.

- I think my next move will now be to apply for a US Visa from Pakistan.. however long that'll take. I definitely won't miss any COVID Testing requirements after making it that far, but thank you for mentioning!!

Thank you for giving me some insight, Scylla. Appreciate it!!

 

[bilaljah]

Also wanted to ask, would it help in any way to request information on my PRTD process using the Access to Information act? Would it delay the case? Or would it not be possible since it's being processed in IRCC Abu Dhabi

 

[armoured]

Also wanted to ask, would it help in any way to request information on my PRTD process using the Access to Information act? Would it delay the case? Or would it not be possible since it's being processed in IRCC Abu Dhabi

You can certainly try. You might find it quicker to ask through your MP's office (presumably MP where your family is living in Canada).

 

[dpenabill]

My family immigrated to Canada from Qatar in 2015 while I was enrolled in Medical School in Pakistan and we all got PRs. . . . my PR Card expired (expiry of September 2020) . . .

. . . applied to renew my PR Card based on HnC grounds and came back to Pakistan in September . . . approved to my delight around February 2021, and I was told that my PR Card is ready for In-Person Pickup . . .

. . . applied for a PRTD based on HnC grounds in June 2021

I contacted CBSA to inquire about crossing the land border in a private vehicle with my situation, but even the person on the phone couldn't give me a guarantee that I would be let in because at the end of the day it depends on the Border Officer on that day and if I can satisfy him that I'm a PR. It felt like too much of a risk to pack everything up here, move out, potentially get denied entry and have to return back to Pakistan, and now my US Visa is expired too so that option is gone.

I concur in all that @scylla posted.

I will nonetheless offer some further, more detailed and thus lengthy observations, with some repetition for emphasis or to assure clarity.

A PR will not be denied entry into Canada, even if the PR is inadmissible for a breach of the Residency Obligation.

The typical problem is getting to Canada, since a PR needs either a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document to get on a plane coming to Canada. In contrast, if the PR can travel via the U.S., and physically reach a Canadian Port-of-Entry, the PR will be allowed to enter Canada.

Explanation for CBSA response about border crossing: it was appropriate to respond that they cannot give any guarantee, as it is indeed correct that upon arrival at the PoE entry depends on establishing your identity and status. However, passport plus expired PR card or copy of CoPR will readily establish your identity and status, and generally even just the passport will suffice. Once the border officials verify who you are and confirm your status in GCMS, they will allow entry. This is not something that can be determined in advance, but can only be determined at the PoE when you arrive (hence no advance guarantee). Note: whether a 44(1) Report and Departure Order might be issued at that time is a separate matter, to be addressed below.​

Which leads to deciding how to proceed forward from here.

The good news is that having made the PR TD application within one year of the last time you were physically in Canada, if that PR TD application is denied (there is a real risk it could be) you should be entitled to a special PR TD to come to Canada pending an appeal. And getting to Canada is something you want (if keeping PR status is important) to do as soon as you can.

Thus, if you can indeed obtain a visa to travel to or via the U.S., the sooner you do that and get to Canada the better.

To be clear, assuming that the decision to approve issuing you a new PR card was definitively made on H&C grounds, that decision was based on the situation, the facts, as of the date you made the PR card application. I cannot fully deconstruct the H&C decision which resulted in being issued a new PR card despite the breach in RO, but the fact you were physically IN Canada at the time of the application was probably at least a significant factor, and quite likely a big factor.

While a brief absence after applying for the PR card would likely have been no big deal, an extended absence could cause problems. In particular there is a substantial risk that a lengthy absence after applying for the new card would be considered a change in circumstances that could trigger a new H&C assessment if and when your RO compliance was subject to examination or review. Such as if you applied for a PR TD (as you have) or during a PoE secondary examination.

So, it is quite possible that the visa office will deny the PR TD. And if in the meantime you are able to travel to Canada via the U.S., it is quite possible that border officials will issue a 44(1) Report and Departure Order. (My guess is that your GCMS is flagged for examination upon arrival at a PoE, due to the PR card application.)

It warrants noting that even if IRCC mailed the new PR card, and your family was in turn able to forward it to you abroad, your lengthy absence in the meantime might still have triggered a RO compliance examination at the PoE when you next arrived here, with a risk of being issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order for a breach of the RO, despite having an almost brand new PR card. Odds otherwise, of being waived through without being questioned about RO compliance, are good for a PR carrying a new PR card. BUT a lengthy absence can often trigger questioning upon arrival at the PoE and if as of that date the PR has not been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years, they are in breach of the RO, and a previous favourable H&C decision may not carry much weight if there has been an absence long enough to constitute a change in circumstances.

I do not mean to paint too dark a picture. Your family being settled here, and given the circumstances (the reasons for going and staying abroad again), you probably still have a good chance of keeping PR status even if you have to appeal a negative PR TD decision or a PoE issued 44(1) Report. But the case will be stronger the sooner you are physically IN Canada, in Canada to stay.


Regarding ATI or ATIP request:

Also wanted to ask, would it help in any way to request information on my PRTD process using the Access to Information act? Would it delay the case? Or would it not be possible since it's being processed in IRCC Abu Dhabi

The request itself is not likely to have any impact on the PR TD application.

To obtain information about the status of your case, an ATIP request for personal information under the Privacy Act is probably a better approach than an ATI request under the Access to Information Act. Not sure how easily this is done from abroad. Also not sure if this will generate much information you can use.

Also Note (if you manage to travel to Canada via the U.S.):

If before you get a decision on the PR TD application you manage to travel to Canada via the U.S., and you are allowed to enter Canada without being reported, and you are able to pick-up the new PR Card, do not just forget about the PR TD application. If that application is denied that will still be a decision to terminate your PR status and will need to be appealed. There may be a procedure to withdraw it before there is a decision. But do not assume that the PR TD application does not matter just because you are back in Canada and have your new PR card.

 

[jakklondon]

Hi there! I have a bit of a complex situation and could use some insight!

My family immigrated to Canada from Qatar in 2015 while I was enrolled in Medical School in Pakistan and we all got PRs. I visited every year for as long as my schedule would allow, with my final plan being to move back to Canada with them after I graduate from Medical School. By the time my PR Card expired (expiry of September 2020), I had spent a total of 6-7 months (I know, well within breach of the RO) in Canada.

While I was in Canada during the summer of 2020 and within 6 months of PR Expiry, I applied to renew my PR Card based on HnC grounds and came back to Pakistan in September to appear for my Final Year Exams. That application was approved to my delight around February 2021, and I was told that my PR Card is ready for In-Person Pickup and I will be contacted for whenever that will be. By the time it was approved however, I was already in Pakistan.

I graduated in April of 2021, and applied for a PRTD based on HnC grounds in June 2021 in order to move back to Canada with my family. I would have thought that since my PR Card has already been approved based on HnC grounds, and I haven't gotten the chance to go pick it up yet, my PRTD would be processed swiftly since the situation is pretty much the same. Almost 8 months have elapsed since I applied and it's still in the Abu Dhabi Office for processing.

This whole ordeal has taken a serious toll on my mental health, not knowing where I'm going to be the next month, having to change around any and all plans I had for my career, separated from my family and hearing them going through their own hardships while I'm stuck here and can't help in any way. I even tried to ask IRCC if they could give me any kind of estimate of when it could get done, just so that I could plan my life out in some way but they couldn't provide any.

I contacted CBSA to inquire about crossing the land border in a private vehicle with my situation, but even the person on the phone couldn't give me a guarantee that I would be let in because at the end of the day it depends on the Border Officer on that day and if I can satisfy him that I'm a PR. It felt like too much of a risk to pack everything up here, move out, potentially get denied entry and have to return back to Pakistan, and now my US Visa is expired too so that option is gone.

My family found a government-certified immigration consultant in Pakistan who was super confident that he can get me my PRTD in a month and a half max but at a steep price. I'm heavily considering it. My question right now is, would starting a new PRTD Application through this person negatively affect my current application / prospects? I just don't want to ruin my chances. Like would IRCC view it negatively like 'you already have an application going, why are you wasting our resources with another one'.

Looking forward to any insight / your own personal experiences. Thank you!

Western world is not what it used to be 30 years ago. It changed significantly and to unrecognizable degree in the past 20 years ago. Things that were inconceivable in the West (but common in the Third World countries) are now becoming more and more common here. Therefore, I will not categorically state that the guy who asked for "steep" fee to "fix" your PRTD can't deliver on his promise. Because I can't rule out the possibility that he has insider connections to ranking Canadian consulate employee that can influence the bureaucracy and get you the travel document in a short time (obviously, it means he would bribe the foreign government official, using part of the the "steep" fee charged from you).
But remember: a lot of people who ask for high fee to "fix" the "papers" are outrights scoundrels, crooks and criminals that have no intention to deliver anything at all in exchange for the money taken from their victims. And, if they have protection/cover from local law enforcement/bureaucrats, you will find yourself in hot waters if they take your money, deliver zilch and you proceed to sue them or demand a refund. So, think really hard about dealing with that "government certified" immigration consultant in Pakistan. There is more trouble you can get yourself into than getting a "negative view from IRCC for applying for the new PRTD while the other is pending.

As to the rest of your post, I think you should have stayed in Canada if you were lucky and granted relief on H&C grounds, You should have stayed there until your GC was issued and received via mail or was available for in person pick up. Now, it seems like you have been granted relief on H&C grounds and immediately left Canada , breaching your RO once again. You can present yourself at the Canadian border and unless your PR status was revoked, you should be entitled to be admitted into Canada. The problem you will have is explaining to border officer why you left Canada after relief received under H&C and breached RO again. Then he will more likely than not report you for breach of RO. And how do you think you will get a relief this time?

 

[bilaljah]

I concur in all that @scylla posted.

I will nonetheless offer some further, more detailed and thus lengthy observations, with some repetition for emphasis or to assure clarity.

A PR will not be denied entry into Canada, even if the PR is inadmissible for a breach of the Residency Obligation.

The typical problem is getting to Canada, since a PR needs either a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document to get on a plane coming to Canada. In contrast, if the PR can travel via the U.S., and physically reach a Canadian Port-of-Entry, the PR will be allowed to enter Canada.

Explanation for CBSA response about border crossing: it was appropriate to respond that they cannot give any guarantee, as it is indeed correct that upon arrival at the PoE entry depends on establishing your identity and status. However, passport plus expired PR card or copy of CoPR will readily establish your identity and status, and generally even just the passport will suffice. Once the border officials verify who you are and confirm your status in GCMS, they will allow entry. This is not something that can be determined in advance, but can only be determined at the PoE when you arrive (hence no advance guarantee). Note: whether a 44(1) Report and Departure Order might be issued at that time is a separate matter, to be addressed below.​

Which leads to deciding how to proceed forward from here.

The good news is that having made the PR TD application within one year of the last time you were physically in Canada, if that PR TD application is denied (there is a real risk it could be) you should be entitled to a special PR TD to come to Canada pending an appeal. And getting to Canada is something you want (if keeping PR status is important) to do as soon as you can.

Thus, if you can indeed obtain a visa to travel to or via the U.S., the sooner you do that and get to Canada the better.

To be clear, assuming that the decision to approve issuing you a new PR card was definitively made on H&C grounds, that decision was based on the situation, the facts, as of the date you made the PR card application. I cannot fully deconstruct the H&C decision which resulted in being issued a new PR card despite the breach in RO, but the fact you were physically IN Canada at the time of the application was probably at least a significant factor, and quite likely a big factor.

While a brief absence after applying for the PR card would likely have been no big deal, an extended absence could cause problems. In particular there is a substantial risk that a lengthy absence after applying for the new card would be considered a change in circumstances that could trigger a new H&C assessment if and when your RO compliance was subject to examination or review. Such as if you applied for a PR TD (as you have) or during a PoE secondary examination.

So, it is quite possible that the visa office will deny the PR TD. And if in the meantime you are able to travel to Canada via the U.S., it is quite possible that border officials will issue a 44(1) Report and Departure Order. (My guess is that your GCMS is flagged for examination upon arrival at a PoE, due to the PR card application.)

It warrants noting that even if IRCC mailed the new PR card, and your family was in turn able to forward it to you abroad, your lengthy absence in the meantime might still have triggered a RO compliance examination at the PoE when you next arrived here, with a risk of being issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order for a breach of the RO, despite having an almost brand new PR card. Odds otherwise, of being waived through without being questioned about RO compliance, are good for a PR carrying a new PR card. BUT a lengthy absence can often trigger questioning upon arrival at the PoE and if as of that date the PR has not been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years, they are in breach of the RO, and a previous favourable H&C decision may not carry much weight if there has been an absence long enough to constitute a change in circumstances.

I do not mean to paint too dark a picture. Your family being settled here, and given the circumstances (the reasons for going and staying abroad again), you probably still have a good chance of keeping PR status even if you have to appeal a negative PR TD decision or a PoE issued 44(1) Report. But the case will be stronger the sooner you are physically IN Canada, in Canada to stay.


Regarding ATI or ATIP request:



The request itself is not likely to have any impact on the PR TD application.

To obtain information about the status of your case, an ATIP request for personal information under the Privacy Act is probably a better approach than an ATI request under the Access to Information Act. Not sure how easily this is done from abroad. Also not sure if this will generate much information you can use.

Also Note (if you manage to travel to Canada via the U.S.):

If before you get a decision on the PR TD application you manage to travel to Canada via the U.S., and you are allowed to enter Canada without being reported, and you are able to pick-up the new PR Card, do not just forget about the PR TD application. If that application is denied that will still be a decision to terminate your PR status and will need to be appealed. There may be a procedure to withdraw it before there is a decision. But do not assume that the PR TD application does not matter just because you are back in Canada and have your new PR card.

Dpenabill, thank you so much for your highly informative and detailed response, and for your time taken in understanding my situation.

I have gleaned substantial information from your reply. I had not considered that me having to coming back to Pakistan for my final year after applying for my PR Renewal may have come off as a difference in situation and may be viewed negatively in my PRTD application. It makes sense.

One, that I should have availed the opportunity when my US Visa was still valid to attempt to cross at the land border, taking that chance.
Two, that crossing at the land border despite being reported is still the best hope for me to get in, barring my PRTD being accepted as of this moment.
Three, I will most definitely not forget my PRTD application if and when I have gotten into Canada.

This whole experience has taught me a lot about being proactive, and has been a life lesson in a way.
I think I will apply for a new US Visa and hope that also gets processed in a reasonable time. I inquired on a US Immigration forum and interview calls for B1/B2 US Visas are being scheduled in 2023 if I apply today.

 

[bilaljah]

Western world is not what it used to be 30 years ago. It changed significantly and to unrecognizable degree in the past 20 years ago. Things that were inconceivable in the West (but common in the Third World countries) are now becoming more and more common here. Therefore, I will not categorically state that the guy who asked for "steep" fee to "fix" your PRTD can't deliver on his promise. Because I can't rule out the possibility that he has insider connections to ranking Canadian consulate employee that can influence the bureaucracy and get you the travel document in a short time (obviously, it means he would bribe the foreign government official, using part of the the "steep" fee charged from you).
But remember: a lot of people who ask for high fee to "fix" the "papers" are outrights scoundrels, crooks and criminals that have no intention to deliver anything at all in exchange for the money taken from their victims. And, if they have protection/cover from local law enforcement/bureaucrats, you will find yourself in hot waters if they take your money, deliver zilch and you proceed to sue them or demand a refund. So, think really hard about dealing with that "government certified" immigration consultant in Pakistan. There is more trouble you can get yourself into than getting a "negative view from IRCC for applying for the new PRTD while the other is pending.

As to the rest of your post, I think you should have stayed in Canada if you were lucky and granted relief on H&C grounds, You should have stayed there until your GC was issued and received via mail or was available for in person pick up. Now, it seems like you have been granted relief on H&C grounds and immediately left Canada , breaching your RO once again. You can present yourself at the Canadian border and unless your PR status was revoked, you should be entitled to be admitted into Canada. The problem you will have is explaining to border officer why you left Canada after relief received under H&C and breached RO again. Then he will more likely than not report you for breach of RO. And how do you think you will get a relief this time?

It was a choice between finishing my professional schooling and keeping my PR. Tough but I do acknowledge that at the end of the day I did make that choice in coming back and not putting my education on freeze.

Thank you for understanding my situation and for your input jakklondon. You are right, the immigration consultant I talked to did not reveal much but was super confident he would get it done quickly. I will proceed with the utmost caution if I do decide to use him. Thank you!!

 

[scylla]

I think I will apply for a new US Visa and hope that also gets processed in a reasonable time. I inquired on a US Immigration forum and interview calls for B1/B2 US Visas are being scheduled in 2023 if I apply today.

I'm glad you found this information. I actually came back to this thread to let you know exactly this.

What you read on the US immigration forums is correct. Right now interviews are being scheduled out into 2023. However I would recommend that you apply asap all the same to get in the queue. There's also some possibility dates might move up / earlier interview dates may become available.

Let us know once you hear back on the PRTD and good luck.

 

[armoured]

While I was in Canada during the summer of 2020 and within 6 months of PR Expiry, I applied to renew my PR Card based on HnC grounds and came back to Pakistan in September to appear for my Final Year Exams.
....
It was a choice between finishing my professional schooling and keeping my PR. Tough but I do acknowledge that at the end of the day I did make that choice in coming back and not putting my education on freeze.

I'm highlighting this point from your first post in this thread and most recent, because it demonstrates a common misconception: your PR card is not your PR status. In other words, your card at the time was due to expire, but there was no "PR expiry" pending.

And unfortunately while this point is a bit complex and depends on circumstances, in retrospect it seems that no, there was not a specific choice at that time you had to make about 'keeping your PR' and finishing your schooling. As we've seen here, applying for your card did not resolve the RO non-compliance issue at all, and did not even give you the benefit-of-the-doubt and ability to travel of having a card in hand because you left before receiving it.

I don't mean to pile on as it's a difficult enough situation and I'm not sure this provides any useful information right now (beyond what others have already contributed). While I think in your case it would have been better to not apply for the PR card renewal but just to do so after finishing schooling (particularly if you had a valid USA visa at that time), there isn't perfect certainty on the matter; that said, I think it would have been advisable to not apply for card/PRTD/present at border until you were ready to reside in Canada.

So again, don't mean to just repeat 'shouldn't have done that' - doesn't help much.

My point is that this misconception that PR status expires - an innocent enough shorthand in some contexts (ie just meaning card is about to expire) - can have very serious consequences in some specific circumstances - and particularly if a PR thinks that the priority should be renewing the card in cases where it would be better to wait until ready to return to Canada and/or be in compliance with RO.

So for others/reference: PR status does NOT just 'expire'. The PR card is NOT PR status. They are only weakly related and this distinction can be very important in some consequences.

 

[dpenabill]

I think I will apply for a new US Visa and hope that also gets processed in a reasonable time. I inquired on a US Immigration forum and interview calls for B1/B2 US Visas are being scheduled in 2023 if I apply today.

These days timeline forecasting tends to be somewhat less reliable than fortune telling, so it is no more than a wild guess what will happen when or which will happen sooner. Might not be too wild a guess, however, that the PR TD application will be decided this year and fairly likely in the coming months. Which is to say, if no U.S. visa is in sight until 2023, your fate will likely be decided by the visa office decision regarding the PR TD application.

And that may be a decision to issue you a PR TD. Problems solved, and some time to actually make the move.

But as noted, there is a significant risk is it will be denied. While you get 60 days to make the appeal, if it is denied you will want to proceed as quickly as you can, file the appeal, make the application for a special PR TD (based on having been in Canada within a year preceding the PR TD application), and get to Canada, hopefully to stay (contingent on winning the appeal of course). Obtaining the assistance of a lawyer to help in the appeal is a good idea, but you do not need a lawyer to file the appeal itself.

But, if the PR TD is denied that is a big clue about how things might turn out. That would be a decision terminating your PR status. And that is what it will do unless you get that decision set aside, which in a case like this ordinarily means winning the appeal (the Minister can set it aside and occasionally will, especially in cases where it is clear the decision was either erroneous or patently unjust; but generally the outcome depends on following through with the appeal and the IAD's decision). The sooner you get into Canada the better your odds.

Pursuing a U.S. visa is probably still a good idea. First, just in case that could happen before there is a decision on the PR TD application. Secondly, as a back-up path to Canada if the visa office also denies issuing a special PR TD for purposes of coming to Canada pending the appeal. While the fact that you were in Canada within the year prior to the PR TD application should mean you will be given a special PR TD, as best we can discern from the rules and practices, actual outcomes are rarely set in stone.

I'm highlighting this point from your first post in this thread and most recent, because it demonstrates a common misconception: your PR card is not your PR status. In other words, your card at the time was due to expire, but there was no "PR expiry" pending.

. . .

My point is that this misconception that PR status expires - an innocent enough shorthand in some contexts (ie just meaning card is about to expire) - can have very serious consequences in some specific circumstances - and particularly if a PR thinks that the priority should be renewing the card in cases where it would be better to wait until ready to return to Canada and/or be in compliance with RO.

So for others/reference: PR status does NOT just 'expire'. The PR card is NOT PR status. They are only weakly related and this distinction can be very important in some consequences.

I agree. Including that the distinction is an important one. Rather often misunderstood or at least its significance underestimated.



On a Separate Note: Regarding the could've, should've, would've scenarios (not so much for the OP, but for general reference):

Any attempt to unravel all the what-if or if-this-or-that scenarios, the post-game could've, should've, would've options, is indeed not only complicated but tangled in contingent outcomes that would have been difficult to forecast even in general probability terms. What's done is done, of course, but even if @bilaljah could do it all over again, whether to do it differently is not at all an easy decision, especially since it is so difficult to forecast how things would actually go.

Except . . . there is one approach which would be sure to protect status, to be sure one keeps their PR, and that is to make decisions avoiding a breach of the Residency Obligation in the first place. BUT of course that approach can come at a significant cost, which for someone in @bilaljah's situation would have meant foregoing that particular educational opportunity.

For many the decision to comply with the RO can mean giving up a highly remunerative employment opportunity. For others it can mean not getting to spend more time with a loved one who will not be around a whole lot longer.

I note this exception not for @bilaljah but to clarify for anyone else who might face similar choices in their life, noting that this particular situation is one that comes up fairly often in this forum (and undoubtedly often in real life for many more); the question is whether to stay abroad to complete a personally important education program even if that means failing to comply with the PR Residency Obligation.

I think I understand the consensus here. It depends on what is more important to the individual. Generally staying abroad to pursue educational options is thought to NOT be a very good or strong H&C reason. It can make the difference. Appears to have made a difference in @bilaljah's PR card application. But that is a big gamble, putting one's PR status on the line.

Back to the consensus here: many here will fairly emphatically caution that remaining abroad in breach of the RO, for the purpose of attending school, is RISKY, "risky" very much deserving all caps and being in bold.

Frankly, it is apparent that at least the last time @bilaljah came to Canada, in the summer of 2020, the PR RO was already breached and breached by what is generally considered a lot. There was a real risk of getting Reported at the Port-of-Entry then. And it was a real gamble to apply for a new PR card based on H&C reasons. Here too I think the consensus in this forum, at that time, would have been to suggest staying in Canada and to wait to apply for a new PR card ONLY after staying long enough to get into RO compliance. Fully recognizing what that would have cost in terms losing the educational opportunity.

A long way around to noting and emphasizing that sometimes a PR can face very difficult personal choices, that as flexible as the PR rules are, there are scenarios they will not accommodate without taking a big gamble.

And a long way around to noting I am not sure what the better approach would have been other than avoiding a breach of the RO.

That is to say, the big decision was whether to take the gamble at all, balancing priorities, fully confronting what is at stake.

In the meantime, hoping this all goes well . . . and concurring again with @scylla, encouraging @bilaljah to return and report how things go, regarding the PR TD application, and the rest.

 

[aprlapr]

Hi there! I have a bit of a complex situation and could use some insight!

My family immigrated to Canada from Qatar in 2015 while I was enrolled in Medical School in Pakistan and we all got PRs. I visited every year for as long as my schedule would allow, with my final plan being to move back to Canada with them after I graduate from Medical School. By the time my PR Card expired (expiry of September 2020), I had spent a total of 6-7 months (I know, well within breach of the RO) in Canada.

While I was in Canada during the summer of 2020 and within 6 months of PR Expiry, I applied to renew my PR Card based on HnC grounds and came back to Pakistan in September to appear for my Final Year Exams. That application was approved to my delight around February 2021, and I was told that my PR Card is ready for In-Person Pickup and I will be contacted for whenever that will be. By the time it was approved however, I was already in Pakistan.

I graduated in April of 2021, and applied for a PRTD based on HnC grounds in June 2021 in order to move back to Canada with my family. I would have thought that since my PR Card has already been approved based on HnC grounds, and I haven't gotten the chance to go pick it up yet, my PRTD would be processed swiftly since the situation is pretty much the same. Almost 8 months have elapsed since I applied and it's still in the Abu Dhabi Office for processing.

This whole ordeal has taken a serious toll on my mental health, not knowing where I'm going to be the next month, having to change around any and all plans I had for my career, separated from my family and hearing them going through their own hardships while I'm stuck here and can't help in any way. I even tried to ask IRCC if they could give me any kind of estimate of when it could get done, just so that I could plan my life out in some way but they couldn't provide any.

I contacted CBSA to inquire about crossing the land border in a private vehicle with my situation, but even the person on the phone couldn't give me a guarantee that I would be let in because at the end of the day it depends on the Border Officer on that day and if I can satisfy him that I'm a PR. It felt like too much of a risk to pack everything up here, move out, potentially get denied entry and have to return back to Pakistan, and now my US Visa is expired too so that option is gone.

My family found a government-certified immigration consultant in Pakistan who was super confident that he can get me my PRTD in a month and a half max but at a steep price. I'm heavily considering it. My question right now is, would starting a new PRTD Application through this person negatively affect my current application / prospects? I just don't want to ruin my chances. Like would IRCC view it negatively like 'you already have an application going, why are you wasting our resources with another one'.

Looking forward to any insight / your own personal experiences. Thank you!

hi bilaljah, I'm planning to renew my husband pr card under h&c also.if you dnt mind can you able to help me how did u do all the forms?my husband got an accident twice that's why he wasn't able to join me here.

 

[armoured]

I agree. Including that the distinction is an important one. Rather often misunderstood or at least its significance underestimated.

On a Separate Note: Regarding the could've, should've, would've scenarios (not so much for the OP, but for general reference):

Any attempt to unravel all the what-if or if-this-or-that scenarios, the post-game could've, should've, would've options, is indeed not only complicated but tangled in contingent outcomes

Yes, best thing to repeat here is that PR status and PR card are separate things, and decisions made based on the idea they are the same thing should be reconsidered.

I also take your point that the could-a should-a hypotheticals are also unknowable and risky (and my post implied perhaps too much certainty about a way things could have gone). INdeed, the only way to be certain of no issues with the residency obligation is ... to comply with the residency obligation.

 

[jakklondon]

It was a choice between finishing my professional schooling and keeping my PR. Tough but I do acknowledge that at the end of the day I did make that choice in coming back and not putting my education on freeze.

Thank you for understanding my situation and for your input jakklondon. You are right, the immigration consultant I talked to did not reveal much but was super confident he would get it done quickly. I will proceed with the utmost caution if I do decide to use him. Thank you!!

I made similar choice. When I figured that I am doomed to be a bus boy or rikshaw for the rest of my life if I stay in Canada as PR, I decided to return home, where I can afford a much better life style and have a white collared, professional job. As a result, I am in breach of RO. And I don't regret it, because I don't yearn to work as a minimum wage paid laborer in some warehouse in Toronto. What I think is a bit confusing to me in your story is the fact that you actually applied for and was granted relief under H&C, and then almost immediately left Canada. The question arises: did you need any relief under H&C grounds, if you could afford to leave Canada right away and stayed out of Canada since? When you take certain action, like applying for H&C, you are essentially making a plea , to give you a chance to stay in Canada, and by implication you commit to not breach RO in future (because doing so would cause you a lot of hardship). But then, once they granted you the relief sought, you turned around and left the country. Now you want to get back. My impression is that you did something that doesn't look good if you look at it with impartial eyes (and I am rather biased on the side of PR, not so impartial. I believe RO is stupid and unfair law, I don't work for border patrol, but even to me it doesn't look right). As a result, you should be prepared to be reported if you return to Canada via US by land ,and get questioned by the border officer. Once reported you can appeal the removal, but what will you tell to appeals board next time? They may think if they grant you another relief you will just turn around and leave Canada again, and that you don't actually need any relief under H&C.

Don't waste money on consultants. If you want a real help, invest in a reputed immigration attorney. Some of them you can hire virtually, so you could get the best immigration attorney in Canada while sitting in Pakistan. And few of them have offices in your country, so you could meet with one of their representatives in person. If you will be spending any money, make sure you give it to someone you can trust and who has proven expertise.