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Permanent Residency Requirements

Nqur

Star Member
Feb 8, 2018
64
1
Category........
NOC Code......
4163
App. Filed.......
20-06-2018
AOR Received.
25-05-2018
Hi Folks!

I'm looking for a clear answer to the following:

My situation:
I need to apply for my PR card renewal in September 2023. Unfortunately, I only have a 6-day cushion to meet the 730-day physical presence in Canada requirement. I had to move back to my home country for family reasons. I moved back to Canada in April 2022.

My job requires me to travel for business meetings outside Canada. So, my question is...

Do the days spent outside Canada for purely business reasons count toward PR days? Or do I have to be physically present in Canada? Because of course, while I am working here, I am spending here and paying taxes.

So, please let me know if any time spent outside Canada for business travel counts in the PR days?
My employer can provide letters and I can provide hotel bookings + airline tickets to support my claims
 

skdubai

Hero Member
Nov 13, 2015
444
29
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Hi Folks!

I'm looking for a clear answer to the following:

My situation:
I need to apply for my PR card renewal in September 2023. Unfortunately, I only have a 6-day cushion to meet the 730-day physical presence in Canada requirement. I had to move back to my home country for family reasons. I moved back to Canada in April 2022.

My job requires me to travel for business meetings outside Canada. So, my question is...

Do the days spent outside Canada for purely business reasons count toward PR days? Or do I have to be physically present in Canada? Because of course, while I am working here, I am spending here and paying taxes.

So, please let me know if any time spent outside Canada for business travel counts in the PR days?
My employer can provide letters and I can provide hotel bookings + airline tickets to support my claims
Since you are travelling out of the country on business while employed by a candian business, that will could towards your residency requirement. You will need to prove this though..

see here https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#appendixA
 

Nqur

Star Member
Feb 8, 2018
64
1
Category........
NOC Code......
4163
App. Filed.......
20-06-2018
AOR Received.
25-05-2018
Since you are travelling out of the country on business while employed by a candian business, that will could towards your residency requirement. You will need to prove this though..

see here https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#appendixA
Will it count or could it count? Sorry, I’m a little confused. What will I need to provide as proof? Any idea?
 

skdubai

Hero Member
Nov 13, 2015
444
29
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Will it count or could it count? Sorry, I’m a little confused. What will I need to provide as proof? Any idea?
Will is what i meant to type.. as i mentioned, you need to provide the supporting documents they asked for on that page...

Supporting documents:

  • You must provide a letter signed by an official of the business that confirms:
    • the position and title of the signing official;
    • the nature of the business and how it fits the description of a Canadian business (see definition above);
    • details of your assignment or contract outside Canada such as:
      • length of the assignment;
      • confirmation that you are a full-time employee of the “Canadian business” working abroad on a full-time basis as a term of your employment, or that you are on contract working abroad on a full-time basis as a term of your contract; and
      • a description or copy of the position profile regarding the assignment or contract abroad;
    • that you will continue working for the employer in Canada after your assignment ends; and
    • that the business was not created mainly for the purpose of meeting your residency obligation.
 

Nqur

Star Member
Feb 8, 2018
64
1
Category........
NOC Code......
4163
App. Filed.......
20-06-2018
AOR Received.
25-05-2018
I see. So I can travel for business. I just need to have all the supporting documents with me.
This is 100% sure, right? Sorry, I don’t mean to question your knowledge. I just want to be thorough. I really appreciate your response
 

skdubai

Hero Member
Nov 13, 2015
444
29
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
I see. So I can travel for business. I just need to have all the supporting documents with me.
This is 100% sure, right? Sorry, I don’t mean to question your knowledge. I just want to be thorough. I really appreciate your response
I had a friend in a similar situation and he did this as well..

He wrote a detailed explanation and also got an employment letter and a letter from his supervisor explaining the need to travel in his position. He would spend weeks at client sites to support them. He was employed full time by a Canadian company and the only reason he was out of the country was for his work. His PR card was renewed. Just give them as much evidence as possible to prove that you had to be out of the country purely for work and you should be fine...

My friend also got a statement from his employer showing all his pay deposits for the period. He sent that along as well..
 

skdubai

Hero Member
Nov 13, 2015
444
29
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Btw.. let me make it clear, this only works if the reason you cannot meet the residency requirement is purely travel for work.. if after adding all those days, you are still borderline, be careful...
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,282
3,042
Do the days spent outside Canada for purely business reasons count toward PR days? Or do I have to be physically present in Canada? Because of course, while I am working here, I am spending here and paying taxes.

So, please let me know if any time spent outside Canada for business travel counts in the PR days?
My employer can provide letters and I can provide hotel bookings + airline tickets to support my claims
@skdubai mostly covers the essentials, but this can be more tricky than some will apprehend.

Credit for days abroad employed by a Canadian business, working full time on a temporary assignment, is considered an EXCEPTION to the required presence in Canada, and as such it is subject to relatively strict application of specific qualifying criteria. If all the qualifying criteria are met, the days abroad will be credited. But that tends to be a much bigger "IF" than many appreciate.

Some in this forum have asserted that time abroad on "business trips" does not count. It is a bit dated now, but a few years ago I addressed this in some depth: see https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/working-abroad-ro-credit-including-business-trips-an-update.607559/
(Note, there are links to numerous cases which do not work, but if you copy and past the url without the "<" and ">" brackets, that will link to the case.)

I observe, for example, that:
Actually qualifying for the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit toward PR RO tends to be very tricky for any PR who actually needs the credit. It warrants noting, for example, even though I am very confident there is NO rule or policy which precludes the credit for "business trips," that does NOT mean business trips will qualify for the credit. The requirements are complex AND OFTEN STRICTLY APPLIED, depending on the FACTS in the particular case, which are typically also complex.​

That is, some business trips will be allowed the credit while others will not. Not arbitrarily, but depending on the particular details, depending on meeting the specific qualifying requirements.

All that may come across more scary than it should. A PR who is employed full time by a readily recognized Canadian company, who has a position working full time for that company here in Canada, who is sent outside Canada on temporary assignments for that company, should have little or no problem getting the credit.

In contrast, if the "business" is one the PR owns, or the PR's family owns, getting credit can run into challenges as to whether the business meets the requirements.

Other snags can be about whether the employment abroad is a "temporary assignment," or is "full time" employment.

A key factor, in particular, can be the extent to which it is clear the PR's employment is actually based in Canada, working for an ongoing business operation, for profit, based in Canada.
 

YVR123

VIP Member
Jul 27, 2017
6,559
2,506
I don't think it counts for business travel. It would count if your company temporary reassign you to work over seas (like a 3 month placement).

Traveling for business meeting do not count towards RO as far as I understand. BUT I am not an immigration lawyer.

  • as a term of your job or contract, you are assigned on a full-time basis to:
    • a position outside Canada
    • an affiliated enterprise outside Canada or
    • a client of the Canadian business or the public service outside Canada; and
  • you will continue working for the employer in Canada after the assignment.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,282
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I don't think it counts for business travel. It would count if your company temporary reassign you to work over seas (like a 3 month placement).

Traveling for business meeting do not count towards RO as far as I understand. BUT I am not an immigration lawyer.
It is important to recognize that "business trips" in and of themselves do not dictate whether or not the days abroad are entitled to the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit toward PR RO. Some business trips will qualify for the credit. Some will not. It is not true that business trips categorically do not count.

I am not a Canadian lawyer or immigration lawyer either. But in researching this issue (which I have done at length), I have yet to find any reliable source (no case law, no IAD decisions, no IRCC information) that says being assigned to attend business meetings outside Canada on behalf of one's Canadian business employer is not entitled to the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit toward PR RO. When others in this forum have stated that "business trips" do not count, I have asked if they would provide a source for this. Over the years, many years now, and many requests, NO ONE has offered any source.

Same question to you: do you know of any source that supports the view that business trips are not allowed this credit?

There are cases similar to one which I cited and linked in the other topic, in which a particular PR was not allowed credit for time abroad for business meetings, but it was NOT because being abroad for business meetings does not count, but because he did not otherwise meet the requirements for getting the credit (for multiple reasons -- among other factors, this PR's real "job" was working abroad with no real position in Canada).

The key is whether the travel abroad to work (including attending business meetings) is pursuant to a temporary assignment by the PR's full-time employer, an employer meeting the definition of "Canadian business," the PR-employment relationship being full time, the work outside Canada being pursuant to a temporary assignment. Labels like "business trip" or "business meetings" are not dispositive and, actually, do not illuminate much.

So, similarly, attending business meetings outside Canada will not, not in itself, mean the days abroad for business trips will count . . . what matters is whether the PR's work abroad meets all the elements of being in a full-time employment relationship with a qualifying Canadian employer and being temporarily assigned to do that work abroad.

In particular, there is nothing about an assignment to attend business meetings outside Canada that will preclude that temporary assignment from getting the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit toward PR RO. There is no real, substantive difference between being assigned to attend sales or marketing or project development meetings, than there is in being assigned to assist installing or performing maintenance on sophisticated equipment the Canadian business has sold to a client abroad (typical assignment for some technicians), or to provide consulting services (typical assignment for some engineers).

There is no relevant difference, in terms of whether the credit is allowed, between a three-day temporary assignment versus a three-month temporary assignment. (Noting that actually the longer the assignment, such as for years, the more it might look like being reassigned, as in not a temporary assignment but being given a more or less permanent position abroad, which will not qualify for the credit.)

None of which means that qualifying for this credit is easy for a PR who actually needs the credit. After all, qualifying for the credit depends in significant part on the PR being established in a job located in Canada, which would usually mean easily being in Canada long enough to meet the RO without counting days working abroad.

Many of those PRs who believe they will get this credit, but don't, are self-employed or working for a close family business, or for a business that is only ostensibly a Canadian business but in substance its operations are mostly outside Canada (it is not enough that the business is incorporated or licensed in Canada; maintaining an office in Canada does not make it a qualifying "Canadian business"). Others who fail to qualify for the credit, just as another example, are those whose position abroad is not a temporary assignment but rather more or less a type of local employment.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,464
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Many of those PRs who believe they will get this credit, but don't,
I'd add to this what seems a very large number of people who are really just on remote work from home and have decided to do it from abroad, and not from within Canada.

Since approx 100% of these are not 'assignments' to travel abroad and fulfill important tasks outside Canada for the Canadian-based employer, but just the personal desire of the employee to spend time there, these would be rightly denied if examined on substance.

Whether they'll receive that much scrutiny - no idea.

I presume some will also try to get some kind of documentation from their employers that they were 'assigned' to work abroad, and again - no idea whether these will get much scrutiny.

If I wre in position of examining from government - which I'm not - I'd ask what compensation the employer provided for that (accommodation, travel, per diems, etc), and if there wasn't any, I'd assume it was a benefit to the employee, and not the employer, and hence not an assignment.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
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Hi Folks!

I'm looking for a clear answer to the following:

My situation:
I need to apply for my PR card renewal in September 2023. Unfortunately, I only have a 6-day cushion to meet the 730-day physical presence in Canada requirement. I had to move back to my home country for family reasons. I moved back to Canada in April 2022.

My job requires me to travel for business meetings outside Canada. So, my question is...

Do the days spent outside Canada for purely business reasons count toward PR days? Or do I have to be physically present in Canada? Because of course, while I am working here, I am spending here and paying taxes.

So, please let me know if any time spent outside Canada for business travel counts in the PR days?
My employer can provide letters and I can provide hotel bookings + airline tickets to support my claims
Are you sponsoring your spouse now that you qualify to sponsor him/her? Based on previous posts you would have had to withdraw your previous application? Not being compliant with your RO while sponsoring a spouse can also lead to IRCC looking at your compliance with your RO.
 

skdubai

Hero Member
Nov 13, 2015
444
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Category........
Job Offer........
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As mentioned earlier, it is based on how clear your case is... In the case of my friend, he was in Canada and had all his base here and had to travel for company work and he could prove it. His employer was also very supportive and provided bucket loads of evidence... Hi trips lasted from days to months on end, depending on the client he was working with at the time..
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,282
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I don't think it counts for business travel.
@YVR123 --

It would really be appreciated if you could share a source for the view that "business travel" does not qualify (not count) as working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit toward PR RO. Or if not, an acknowledgement there is no source.

This has been repeated often over the years. But it appears made up. If there really is some basis for it, sharing that would be helpful.

Thank you.