Bad news for TFW under food service processing their LMO

[fkl]

I'm not sure why you insist on harping on the same point. This entire thread is, as the title aptly describes, focused on TFW's for the food services industry. No one is talking about, or trying to change, your contribution or rights as a skilled TFW.

The one part of your message I do concur with wholeheartedly is that you made an informed decision to come here knowing that you would have to pay taxes. However, I completely disagree with your assertion that you pay double the taxes of Canadians without getting benefits. How exactly do you pay double, and what benefits do you not qualify for? CCTB for the first 18 months? All Pr's and citizens have to live in Canada for 18 months to qualify, just like you. Also, while 30% of your company's workforce may be comprised of TFW's, I'm sure the amount is relatively negligible when compared to the 250k other TFW's that come into Canada each year.

And you insist on the same ones as well - the thread deviated from title and cursed the whole program. Have you read it through totally? Please do, you would know why.

 

[torontosm]

I did exactly get through an LMO and probably know about it far more than most people because work permit was delayed for really weird reasons and there was a lot of legal follow up involved.

Please i am tired of arguments "only limited to low skilled label used to curse the entire class of tfw". But LMO is the easier part. The work permit in home country adds a lot more complexities and requirements WHICH YOU HAVE ZERO IDEA ABOUT.

To give you an idea, for the record my LMO was issued in 15 days and work permit took 10 months in total. The entire delay was not due to complexities of procedure (some were just lame mistakes by CIC staff in my home country). But i was really really pissed off by many weird requirements i faced which were meant ONLY to avoid problems created by low skilled positions requirements.

I wish you had actually moved further from LMO and would have gotten to catch a glimpse of work permit details itself. THEN you would have gotten some idea perhaps.

It seems like you are only on this forum to complain. The processing of work permits is irrelevant to this discussion as that pertains to each individual applicant and their personal circumstances. The LMO, however, serves the purpose of proving that there is no qualified Canadian for a particular job. My point was that the LMO is a joke as anyone could get one approved with minimal effort. As a result of this, under the current system, it is VERY EASY to displace a Canadian from a particular job by obtaining a LMO to import a foreign national.

 

[torontosm]

And you insist on the same ones as well - the thread deviated from title and cursed the whole program. Have you read it through totally? Please do, you would know why.

I've read it thoroughly and can summarize your posts as follows:
1) You do not wish to be lumped into the same category as unskilled TFW's (which no one ever tried to do).
2) You represent a small minority of TFW's who remain entirely unaffected by the current and contemplated changes to the program;
3) Your sense of entitlement is making you upset that you do not qualify for some unspecified benefits.

Did I miss anything?

 

[fkl]

I've read it thoroughly and can summarize your posts as follows:
1) You do not wish to be lumped into the same category as unskilled TFW's (which no one ever tried to do).
2) You represent a small minority of TFW's who remain entirely unaffected by the current and contemplated changes to the program;
3) Your sense of entitlement is making you upset that you do not qualify for some unspecified benefits.

Did I miss anything?

1) It has been generalized so you are completely wrong in "no one ever tried to do". It has been mentioned at least 10 times with in this thread by multiple people. Don't push me to reference posts. You should be able to read them earlier. Otherwise i won't have made a lot of posts here. Canadians wish to abolish this program entirely citing problems caused only by low skilled positions.

2) It is not a small minority. Do you have any reference? It is just your assumption. CIC never releases those numbers. They only says "e.g. 250k foreign workers". I just have a very rough idea because i read some stats on skilled NOCs. It is certainly not an insignificant number. Besides Post doc positions do not require LMO's but they still come through temp work permit programs.

3) The only thing i am upset about is Canadians realizing that i am making a better contribution to their society, giving more than taking compared to Canadians (because i have deductions for benefits i wont consume - old age, pension plus a few other things). It is frustration when you say "temp workers take more from this society than they give back". It is enough as long you realize that and stop generalizing.

 

[kafka khaos]

Similarly, every one can have opinions about economy. But one thing is absolutely undisputed. Government takes a decision for their own sake (whether for their people, or economy), they never do it for the betterment of any other nation in the world.

Governments makes descison for all sorts of reasons and often they are idealogical. Harper inparticular seems to be geared towards helping corporations maximize profphit, and less concern with helping the working middle class (either Canadians or foreigners).

My point was only that a highly skilled position often helps with creating more jobs.

Highly skilled TFWers can also damage the economy.

Let me try to explain how a capitalist economy without foreign workers is supposed to work:

Business X needs electricians (for example) if there is a shortage they raise salaries from $15 to $30 to atttract electricians to their business.

Students see that electricians make $30 while plumbers make $20 (for example) and so more students decide to study as electricians. Thus the "skill gap" gets corrected in a few years. (if too many students become electricians, wages will fall again, maybe to $20-$25, for example).

That is how an economy is supposed to work in a capitalist system.

But when you introduce TFWers it goes like this: The business needs electricians but can't find any, so they import TFWers for $15. Students see electricians make $15 and plumbers make $20, so they tend to study plumbing. The skill gap is never filled, and we need to permenently rely on TFW electricians. Also notice how any Canadian electrians in the second example only earn $15 even tho it is a rare and sought after skill and notice how there is no motivation for any Canadian to study this RARE and sought after skill. (in the example)


This is how highly skilled TFWers damage the Canadfian economy and damage Canadian workers.

TFWers should be used temporararly for very brief periods of time ( a few years maximum) until the skills training has filled the gap. Instead what we are seeing in Canada now is a permenent reliance on TFWers and permanent depression of wages. All to benefit only corporations and no one else.

 

[torontosm]

2) It is not a small minority. Do you have any reference? It is just your assumption. CIC never releases those numbers. They only says "e.g. 250k foreign workers". I just have a very rough idea because i read some stats on skilled NOCs. It is certainly not an insignificant number. Besides Post doc positions do not require LMO's but they still come through temp work permit programs.

3) The only thing i am upset about is Canadians realizing that i am making a better contribution to their society, giving more than taking compared to Canadians (because i have deductions for benefits i wont consume - old age, pension plus a few other things). It is frustration when you say "temp workers take more from this society than they give back". It is enough as long you realize that and stop generalizing.

Actually, the stats are published, and can be seen here: http://www.edsc.gc.ca/eng/jobs/foreign_workers/lmo_statistics/annual-skill-level.shtml

Now, on first glance, this shows that 107,450 TFW's in 2012 (representing 53% of the total) were in categories C and D, which could be classified as "unskilled". However, these figures do not include occupations like Food Service Supervisor, which are categorized as Skilled and Technical (which is laughable in itself). If you assume half of the "Skilled and Technical" category is comprised of this, then the total number of "unskilled" LMO's issued increases to 143,578 or 71% of the total.

Yes, I realize that not all TFW's are the same, and some do contribute more than others. But, as shown above, the MAJORITY are unskilled and do not.

 

[fkl]

It seems like you are only on this forum to complain. The processing of work permits is irrelevant to this discussion as that pertains to each individual applicant and their personal circumstances. The LMO, however, serves the purpose of proving that there is no qualified Canadian for a particular job. My point was that the LMO is a joke as anyone could get one approved with minimal effort. As a result of this, under the current system, it is VERY EASY to displace a Canadian from a particular job by obtaining a LMO to import a foreign national.

I can say the same for you. But since it is not going to add any thing constructive and would only get personal, I would stop here. For the record, look at my total posts. At least 90% of those try helping others with the process. It is probably once or twice that i get into a debate. Still i never got personal, which from some of the last posts look like you are.

Absolutely wrong. Work permit is part of the process. Tons of people have been asking even AFTER getting work permit on this exact thread whether they would be stopped at border. Government explained the process as well officially citing work permits too. So every thing involving getting a person to work here on a work permit includes it. I am astonished you are arguing on that.

And getting an LMO statistically is not a joke either. In one case you might have gotten away with it easily. However, the standard procedure every employer follows is certainly tough in itself. Again i am NOT talking about low skilled positions. And as you wrote this last one there was yet another post including skilled positions too in the same treatment which is why i was arguing entirely.

 

[fkl]

Yes, I realize that not all TFW's are the same, and some do contribute more than others. But, as shown above, the MAJORITY are unskilled and do not.

Appreciate that. Never saw a reference to stats. Thanks for adding it. Probably would look at it in detail.

The last sentence was all i intended to convey.

Peace.

 

[fkl]

Respectfully, i don't think our definition of skilled resembles. Electrician to me is a pretty ordinary job and i would be surprised if it is quoted as a representative example of skilled positions. A professor would have been better who definitely won't make those figures. Many domains are just not learned in school, often Canadian employers are trying to establish expertise in a new area of business by bringing in people with credentials (not university only but proven past experience doing the same).

Also usually when people are brought for such positions, they come at better pays and following the logic quoted would still raise the average pay for those roles there by attracting more students to acquire those skills.

Besides, every developed country in the world does that. If it would have been flawed that would not have been the case. US is often quoted. It is safe to say that most employees of Google, Facebook, General Electric, Verizon etc. are not US natives but rather come from all over the world and have had great impact in success of these companies.

Governments makes descison for all sorts of reasons and often they are idealogical. Harper inparticular seems to be geared towards helping corporations maximize profphit, and less concern with helping the working middle class (either Canadians or foreigners).

Highly skilled TFWers can also damage the economy.

Let me try to explain how a capitalist economy without foreign workers is supposed to work:

Business X needs electricians (for example) if there is a shortage they raise salaries from $15 to $30 to atttract electricians to their business.

Students see that electricians make $30 while plumbers make $20 (for example) and so more students decide to study as electricians. Thus the "skill gap" gets corrected in a few years. (if too many students become electricians, wages will fall again, maybe to $20-$25, for example).

That is how an economy is supposed to work in a capitalist system.

But when you introduce TFWers it goes like this: The business needs electricians but can't find any, so they import TFWers for $15. Students see electricians make $15 and plumbers make $20, so they tend to study plumbing. The skill gap is never filled, and we need to permenently rely on TFW electricians. Also notice how any Canadian electrians in the second example only earn $15 even tho it is a rare and sought after skill and notice how there is no motivation for any Canadian to study this RARE and sought after skill. (in the example)


This is how highly skilled TFWers damage the Canadfian economy and damage Canadian workers.

TFWers should be used temporararly for very brief periods of time ( a few years maximum) until the skills training has filled the gap. Instead what we are seeing in Canada now is a permenent reliance on TFWers and permanent depression of wages. All to benefit only corporations and no one else.

 

[kafka khaos]

Respectfully, i don't think our definition of skilled resembles. Electrician to me is a pretty ordinary job and i would be surprised if it is quoted as a representative example of skilled positions. A professor would have been better who definitely won't make those figures.

Its irrelevant. You can change "electrician" to "wozzle-wuzzle widget expert". I simply wanted to explain how economics works with a general example. No one is going to pay a "wozzle-wuzzle widget expert" well if they can import one for cheap. That's economics. And when they are importing them for cheap, theres zero motivation for Canadians to study the field of ""wozzle-wuzzle widgets". That's economics.

I am willing to admit there may be a place for some TFWers in certain categories. Professors in very specfic fields do travel the world and teach in various institutions. Thats fine and thats not what we are talking about here. But if we find Canadians are not having success at becoming professors in certain fields then we must investigate why and solve that skill gap.

Anyway, there are not 250,000 professors let into Canada every year to teach or do research here. The vast VAST VAST majority of TFWers both "skilled" and "un-skilled" (however you define it) do in fact damage the Canadian economy and do in fact harm workers and drive down wages. How much tax they pay is irrelevent, totally. They do harm by maintaining a permanent skill gap and a permanent depression of wages.

Also usually when people are brought for such positions, they come at better pays and following the logic quoted would still raise the average pay for those roles there by attracting more students to acquire those skills.

There may be a tiny minority of positions that are like this. But lets not waste time talking about 0.1% of the TFWers. Lets fix the 99.9% that are causing problems first.

 

[fkl]

There may be a tiny minority of positions that are like this. But lets not waste time talking about 0.1% of the TFWers. Lets fix the 99.9% that are causing problems first.

I don't know for sure how many. But i seriously doubt it's a tiny minority. It is much better than that and there are good reasons for believing so. A well earning and settled professional is not really dying to find a way to get into Canada. It takes much more than that to convince him and mostly better pay (compared to Canadians for such posts but lacking the skill set needed) is a criteria. The entire concept which was logical that it would damage economy was based upon one opinion. "Importing cheap labor".

Irrespective of not finding it a very decent way to put it, as some one already pointed out - as long as it is not cheap and rather better, it has the opposite impact.

The stats quoted earlier do indicate something. If you trust those stats, they say 50% or so are highly skilled people.

If you don't trust them at all (i.e. don't think the level B posts are really skilled ones) - then at most the stats are wrong and we would need more info to comment upon the numbers. I agree that many positions might not be truly justified as skilled or needed. But that doesn't mean that i would just add all people of that category into the LOW SKILLED pool. Still the number of professional or management ones would go over 10% easily. And this DOES not include LMO exempted people i.e. Professors and others. And no matter how well an education system is, you will always find researchers in one area or the other sharing their expertise with the rest of the world by working in other countries temporarily. That is the only way academia works. So it is not a 0.1% or 1 or even 10% pool. It is higher and as long as you try treating them all in the same way, you would get resistance, that can be discussed with rationality, not imposed with obsession.

 

[pkefal]

Its irrelevant. You can change "electrician" to "wozzle-wuzzle widget expert". I simply wanted to explain how economics works with a general example. No one is going to pay a "wozzle-wuzzle widget expert" well if they can import one for cheap. That's economics. And when they are importing them for cheap, theres zero motivation for Canadians to study the field of ""wozzle-wuzzle widgets". That's economics.

I am willing to admit there may be a place for some TFWers in certain categories. Professors in very specfic fields do travel the world and teach in various institutions. Thats fine and thats not what we are talking about here. But if we find Canadians are not having success at becoming professors in certain fields then we must investigate why and solve that skill gap.

Anyway, there are not 250,000 professors let into Canada every year to teach or do research here. The vast VAST VAST majority of TFWers both "skilled" and "un-skilled" (however you define it) do in fact damage the Canadian economy and do in fact harm workers and drive down wages. How much tax they pay is irrelevent, totally. They do harm by maintaining a permanent skill gap and a permanent depression of wages.


There may be a tiny minority of positions that are like this. But lets not waste time talking about 0.1% of the TFWers. Lets fix the 99.9% that are causing problems first.

Do be honest, I don't understand how you "drive the wages down" when the employer is obliged to pay at least the median wage of the province. If the argument is that "if they didn't have to pay the median wage on an TFW, then the wages will increase for the Canadians" then you might be right, but that won't change how much goes into your pocket even if you accepted to work for the median wage. If the median is $100 and the high is $200, if you push the wage towards the highs, that will increase labor cost and eventually increase the product cost (e.g. food, services, you name it). You'll have to spend more to have the same goods, which will, in its majority, reduce the effect of the increased wages. Also, your taxes will increase as your income increases.

Effectively, you won't be making that much more as you might probably think. You will be earning more, but not that much more. That applies to low skilled jobs. High skilled jobs have very substantial differences between their wage levels so that example doesn't apply there, but you can't pay a burger flipper (no offence guys, just an example) $75.000 per year. Then your burger won't cost $5 but $14 and you'll be complaining about the price and the deflation or inflation caused by this. Every action has an equal re-action.

Before you start pointing fingers, please think it more thoroughly. I'm not saying that there wasn't abuse and I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a limitation (probably a quota) on the low skilled jobs. I also don't buy it that there aren't Canadians to do the work at Mcdonald's. They might not like the wage and the nature of the job, but that's how it is, either take it, or leave it.

It's not an easy problem to fix, otherwise they would have done it and scraping the program altogether is not the solution either. It will not only hurt you but the overall economy. There has to be regulation and enforcement of the laws.. If they make it even more difficult for high skilled jobs as a side effect of trying to scrutinize the low skilled ones, high skilled people won't bother coming to Canada. They already have to wait ridiculous times (6 months for an LMO or year(s) to Skilled immigration programs), they won't bother waiting.. There are other countries welcoming them the next day. That shortage will be devastating for the economy. Training is not the answer because as much as you might want to train people, you cannot substitute experience with training, period. You need a balance and a good mix of experience and potential talent (not every Canadian is a talent at what he studies) and if this cannot be found in countries like the US which attract talent from all over the world (with the proper quotas) what makes you believe it exists in smaller countries like Canada or the UK? As I mentioned before, I was referring to high skilled jobs in the last part of my reply, not low skilled jobs.

 

[kafka khaos]

Do be honest, I don't understand how you "drive the wages down" when the employer is obliged to pay at least the median wage of the province. If the argument is that "if they didn't have to pay the median wage on an TFW, then the wages will increase for the Canadians" then you might be right, but that won't change how much goes into your pocket even if you accepted to work for the median wage.

Inflation causes the price of things to rise. Gas costs more than it did 20 years ago. Housing costs way more than it did 20 years ago. Food, electricity, and many other basics cost more than they did 20 years ago. And yet Canadian wages have been, on average, stagnant. Wages have stayed the same while the cost of everything went up. Stagnant wages are, in effect, a cut. They lower your standard of living. Wages must always rise for Canadians to keep pace with inflation.

That isn't happening in Canada. The poor are getting poorer, the rich are getting richer (top 5%) and the people in the middle are staying the same. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/middle-class-stagnant-rich-and-poor-increasing-in-numbers-1.703237

The TFW program, until last year, allowed employers to pay 15% less. Now there is a new rule that says they have to pay equal wages (but that rule has never been enforced). If a position is "in demand" then it needs to be made more attractive. Maybe no one wants to flip burgers for $10. So that means pay them more, it does not mean import foreigners and pay them $10 (while deducting exhoritant rent from their pay check and refusing to pay overtime so really they only make $6.) The abuse makes the program especially damaging, and that is why I focus on fixing the abuse of the program the most. But even a very low amount of abuse would work to keep wages of Canadians low.

If the median is $100 and the high is $200, if you push the wage towards the highs, that will increase labor cost and eventually increase the product cost (e.g. food, services, you name it). You'll have to spend more to have the same goods, which will, in its majority, reduce the effect of the increased wages. Also, your taxes will increase as your income increases.

The prices go up anyway. Thats how the top 5% keep getting richer and richer and richer while everyone else stays the same or gets poorer.

Corporations in Canada have been making record profits by raising prices while keeping wages stagnant. And by the way, a Big Mac from MacDonalds in Fort Mac costs the same as a Big mac in Toronto, despite the Fort Mac workers makeing way high wages. It's a myth that corporations will always raise prices if they raise wages. In fact, the price of a product is based on many factors, and the wages of the people who produce it is only one small part of that.

I also don't buy it that there aren't Canadians to do the work at Mcdonald's. They might not like the wage and the nature of the job, but that's how it is, either take it, or leave it.

Theres lots of Canadians who would love that job if it paid decently. Actually,when i was in high school i applied at MacDonalds and they turned me down. I would have loved working there but was not given the chance.

Regardless, why in the world would MacDonalds even dream of paying more money when they can import foreigners for cheap? Why? No one who supports the TFW program can explain to me how MacDonalds (or any other corporation) will ever get around to raiseing wages, if they can just keep importing cheap foreigners?

And if they are not raising wages, then you are losing because the price of everything else is always going up up up.

I already showed the example where it is required for a strong economy that employers raise wages when they have trouble finding workers. Circumventing that destroys the economy. See my example a few posts above.

 

[goldenbrown]

Thats a good analysis Kafka. The bigger the corporation the more power they have to get away with things such as not paying taxes, use cheap labour to drive down the wages and if people start to organize- just go search for another source of cheap labour.

 

[pkefal]

kafka khaos , well you don't want to listen and you intentionally ignore the parts of our replies that don't fit your story. You only commented on the low skilled jobs part and completely ignored or commented the high skilled jobs part etc. Giving the example of the salary and the employer abusing the worker without paying overtime it's not TFWs fault (as a program) but the government's or whatever regulatory service failed to enforce proper checks and mark fines. Also, inflation doesn't only raise prices.. I specifically mentioned inflation *and* deflation as well.. low inflation is desired, let alone necessary, for an economy to progress. High inflation or deflation is not desired, as it causes devaluation of goods, currency and damages exports etc.

How do you know that the rule has never been enforced? You cannot hire somebody if you don't pay him that much, plain and simple. A very low amount of abuse should not have a great effect on anything, if it's as you say.. low. Even if the TFWs on low skilled jobs are 30% in a province.. 30% cannot affect 70%, hell, even 40% to 60% can't. I do agree though that if abuse is not taken care somehow this will get completely out of control.

And it's not a myth. Having relatives who own dining businesses (snack bar and a restaurant) I can assure you, around 40% to 45% for snack bars and around 30% for a restaurant, the product price is related to wages and benefits. The rest 30%-40% is raw material and then any other expense of the business. Ratio's vary a bit depending if you rent the place or own the place. Unfortunately, you'll be giving them another excuse to raise their prices even more.

Anyhow, good discussion and wish you the best.