Renouncing American Citizenship

[havee3333333]

Hello,

I am currently a student in the United States, where I am also a citizen. I would like to renounce my American citizenship as the United States is a totalitarian country that did not fulfill the many promises it has made to the many naive people that immigrate to the nation, rather it offers a corrupt culture of waste and exploitation. I also feel threatened due to the harassment shown to left political activists who are kept monitored by the state with a massive police presence in leftist political rallies and other leftist related activities. I would like to leave this country soon, and I want to go to Canada which is relatively more free. My hope is to be granted residency status, as I don't want to be left stateless, but should I do this before or after I renounce my citizenship (which I will have to do outside of US territory)? I am not going to wait the months in the states while my residency files, rather I will renounce my citizenship as soon as I am out of the country, which I am afraid the change in citizenship status in the US will bring up an issue in the processing later.

So I am expecting to be left stateless for a few months while I apply for residency in Canada. Does anyone have advise on what I should do during that time?

 

[amikety]

I would advise you re-think this plan. If you think Canada is somehow less corrupt, you are wrong. It's just as bad here as it is in the USA. And the immigrants being exploited thing - we have lots of immigrant Medical Doctors driving cabs in Canada or working as a cashier at Wal-Mart. Do you really think that's any better? Canada is not some magical dream land. Immigrants are exploited just the same in Canada as they are the USA.

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

You must be outside the USA to renounce citizenship according to this link. I would read the entire link. It clearly states being "stateless" doesn't protect you from being deported back to the USA in all cases. You will have to appear in person to renounce citizenship. I believe there is a fee involved as well, but the link doesn't discuss this. Renouncement of citizenship doesn't free you from debts or other obligations. You may also require a visa to re-enter the USA later.

As far as getting into Canada - if you're planning to stay for six months, you will need to have sufficient funds to provide for your stay. You should plan for at least 2K CAD per month, although true expenses may be much higher. You cannot show up at the border with your U-Haul.... you must be a genuine visitor to gain entry into Canada. You will not be able to work. You may or may not be able to drive. If you are in Canada more than 180 days even as a visitor, you have to file taxes. As a visitor you will not have access to healthcare - you will need traveler's insurance and/or funds to bear the cost of all treatments out of your own pocket. If your stay runs over 6 months, you would have to request an extension of your stay. You would need to be able to provide CIC with a logical reason why you should be allowed to remain as a visitor in Canada.

It sounds like you wish to make a refugee claim. Keep in mind, the USA is on the list of 'safe' countries. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/reform-safe.asp If you make a refugee claim while still a US citizen, you can expect a short stay unless you can produce proof (I. e., police reports, hospital records) that you are in danger and being targeted by state sanctioned police forces/laws. Just saying the USA is hostile to your political beliefs will get you a fast trip back to the USA. It can also make visiting Canada at a later date extremely difficult.

Due to the complex nature of your case, you may want to consult with an experienced immigration lawyer. Possibly one that handles US and Canadian immigration so they may be familiar with your issues regarding your US citizenship.

I would suggest you thoroughly and carefully read CIC's information regarding refugees: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/inside/index.asp

As far as being stateless, once you accomplish that, you may have better luck with your claim. I don't really know, which is another reason I suggest you obtain a qualified, experienced attorney.

 

[Leon]

Your chances of being accepted as a refugee in Canada are very close to zero.

My advice, if you want to immigrate to Canada, find an immigration class that you qualify under, see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/apply.asp or look into getting a job offer and a work permit that you can turn into immigration later. After you get your work permit or PR, you can move to Canada. With a work permit, work on getting PR and with PR, work on getting your citizenship. Once you get your Canadian citizenship, then go ahead and renounce your US citizenship if you still want to.

However, keep in mind that this is not a something that will happen fast. Qualifying for PR will take give, processing it will take time, qualifying for citizenship too as well as processing it. If you are there in less than 5 years, it would be a small miracle. 7-8 years would be more likely.

 

[scylla]

As far as getting into Canada - if you're planning to stay for six months, you will need to have sufficient funds to provide for your stay. You should plan for at least 2K CAD per month, although true expenses may be much higher. You cannot show up at the border with your U-Haul.... you must be a genuine visitor to gain entry into Canada. You will not be able to work. You may or may not be able to drive. If you are in Canada more than 180 days even as a visitor, you have to file taxes. As a visitor you will not have access to healthcare - you will need traveler's insurance and/or funds to bear the cost of all treatments out of your own pocket. If your stay runs over 6 months, you would have to request an extension of your stay. You would need to be able to provide CIC with a logical reason why you should be allowed to remain as a visitor in Canada.

It sounds like you wish to make a refugee claim. Keep in mind, the USA is on the list of 'safe' countries. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/reform-safe.asp If you make a refugee claim while still a US citizen, you can expect a short stay unless you can produce proof (I. e., police reports, hospital records) that you are in danger and being targeted by state sanctioned police forces/laws. Just saying the USA is hostile to your political beliefs will get you a fast trip back to the USA. It can also make visiting Canada at a later date extremely difficult.

Great advice from amikety. If you have renounced US citizenship and given up your passport, then you will have no way of entering Canada as a tourist. You'll also have no way of applying to immigrate to Canada (a passport is required to initiate and complete the process). Showing up at the border and claiming refugee status as a stateless person will get you an immediate and expedited return back to the US due to the Safe Third Country agreement.

Go ahead and apply to immigrate to Canada (assuming you qualify). But I completely agree with Leon. Wait until you are a citizen of Canada before you renounce your US citizenship (it will take several years to become a citizen of Canada after you become a permanent resident).

As a first step (before you do anything else), please check to see if you qualify to immigrate to Canada by taking the online test available here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/eligibility.asp

and / or reading through the immigration programs available here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/apply.asp

As Leon explained, this is not a process that takes months - it takes years. Preparing the paperwork alone will take several months. And again, that's if you qualify. These days it's pretty difficult to immigrate unless you have immediate family (spouse, adult children) in Canada, have a job offer in Canada or have a few years of experience working in Canada.

Good luck - hope things work out for you.

 

[newtone]

Canada is really no different from the USA when it comes to discrimination, the only difference is in USA its very direct whereas in Canada its very subtle (they do things behind your back and face to face its all smiles). I prefer people tell me things on my face rather behind me.
But the level of discrimination and exploitation is the same. Please find out if there is any way you can exchange your American citizenship with my Canadian citizenship, I am open to that option. PM me if you have more info, I have a clean record, and a good citizen and hope you are the same.

 

[maxvol]

Hello,

I am currently a student in the United States, where I am also a citizen. I would like to renounce my American citizenship as the United States is a totalitarian country that did not fulfill the many promises it has made to the many naive people that immigrate to the nation, rather it offers a corrupt culture of waste and exploitation. I also feel threatened due to the harassment shown to left political activists who are kept monitored by the state with a massive police presence in leftist political rallies and other leftist related activities. I would like to leave this country soon, and I want to go to Canada which is relatively more free. My hope is to be granted residency status, as I don't want to be left stateless, but should I do this before or after I renounce my citizenship (which I will have to do outside of US territory)? I am not going to wait the months in the states while my residency files, rather I will renounce my citizenship as soon as I am out of the country, which I am afraid the change in citizenship status in the US will bring up an issue in the processing later.

So I am expecting to be left stateless for a few months while I apply for residency in Canada. Does anyone have advise on what I should do during that time?

Is this a joke?? Do you know that there are people in this world who would kill to get American citizenship? Obviously you havent lived in some countries in Africa, where getting through alive at the end of the day is a blessing. If you really need a reality check go to other less developed countries and you'll know how worthless human life really is. You feel harassed? wow! try cancelling a phone contract in Canada without paying cancellation fees or telemarketers or ask the cops to help you with anything.

 

[on-hold]

I know it's easy to make fun of the OP -- as an American myself, though, I have to say that I find public life and public issues in Canada to be lacking in the undercurrent of tension and violence that I feel in the States. I came here for other reasons, but I'm staying for the sanity. It's easy and incorrect to say that there is no difference between Canada and the States. As for renouncing citizenship, everyone else has said it better than I could; don't do it on a whim!

As for the rest, I feel this way: just as I don't hold my Russian friend responsible for what Putin does, or my Saudi friend for the state of Saudi society, I don't hold myself responsible for the American government.

 

[on-hold]

And bear in mind, when Randy Quaid tried to become a refugee up here, I believe one commentator observed that No American has ever been granted refugee status in Canada, and followed up to the effect that it seemed unlikely Quaid would be the first. I don't know exactly what happened in the Vietnam War, but I suspect draft dodgers were granted residency, or had not committed an extraditable offence, without actually being classified as refugees. This has been controversial recently, when several people who came to escape the Iraq War were sent back. Nothing you wrote suggests that your refugee application would be stronger than theirs.

 

[newtone]

I am not making fun of the OP as a matter of fact its true. I am sure you've heard how the Toronto police shot an 18 year old 9 times and then tasered him just cause he was holding a knife. Sadly he died. This was the latest. There are many more but I cant think of them out of the top of my head.

So we do have a strong influence of American culture here the only difference is, as Canadians its not appropriate to make it look obvious. If this was a black guy it would never make it to the news. We always have a way to play with words and re-phrase sentences so that we dont hurt peoples feelings. Cause we love to have our ego inflated and keep it that way to the outside world. We are different than Americans, how.....simple "keep it subtle"

For example if I dont want to hire a guy in my company I'll simply say you are over qualified for this position. If he is qualified for the position I'll simply say sorry we have a "better candidate" but we will keep your resume on file (translated to I'll throw it in the garbage bin) and good luck (f$#!K off and dont come back) for your future and wish you all the best.


Another example is if I dont want to hire new immigrant then I'll simple say, "Sir, unfortunately our job requires you to have extensive experience in dealing with our North American clients unfortunately you dont have that in your resume". The key here is "extensive", because the poor candidate may have North American experience cause we live in a very global world today, satellite offices are everywhere and through technology the world is a much smaller place. Unfortunately Canada is not very global which is why you dont hear about it too often in world news.

So my conclusion would be to understand Canadians you have to understand words, read between lines, simple yet complex when used in context and very subtle. Does that make sense. I hope so! lol


Having said all this we also have to keep in mind that there are far more opportunities in US than Canada, I mean a professional Engineer, IT, or Accountant from India can find a job in his field compared to Canada where his options are not limited to driving taxis but also security guard, cleaning toilets, and working in macdonalds. Bottom line is its money that makes the world go round, ethics only looks good in theory, as we can see from this whole financial crisis it is really limited to books and academic papers and cannot be applied practically. The same thing can also be said for racism, poverty and discrimination, people use and abuse it to their discretion. Really depends on how you exercise them. We've had so many "eradicate poverty" concerts, countless rallies but where did all the money go? has poverty been eradicated? NO. Now people have just given up, just like everything poverty, racism and discrimination will always be there it really depends how how extreme you want to take it. In USA its very direct and in your face and in Canada is very subtle but is as severe as US. You pick and choose what works for you.

 

[YorkFactory]

I would say that you should learn a lot more about Canada, and a lot more about the United States, before you try to proceed any further with this plan.

 

[bkara]

if i were you,i would not make a decision unless i live in toronto for 6 months.

It is exactly how newtone says.Somepeople here are not as frank as some Americans there.And facing discrimination is a usual thing it does not bother you anymore after a few years.

The darker you are,the more you lose.I am planning on changing my name because it does not sound British and you are telling me you want to renounce your citizenship.

come and live here first my friend.

 

[Leon]

if i were you,i would not make a decision unless i live in toronto for 6 months.

Why go to Toronto? There are a lot more jobs in AB.

 

[on-hold]

As an American, I honestly don't understand what people mean when they say Americans are 'frank' and Canadians aren't. The two peoples are so similar to each other, and both countries have so many immigrants, that it's really absurd to talk about the national characters being separate. This idea that all of Canada is more similar to itself than it is to the States, and that Texas and Minnesota have more in common with each other than either does with Canada, is ridiculous. The internal differences within either Canada or the USA are far greater than the differences between them. The most important difference, disregarding the language issue, is that Canadians mostly agree on a vision of the government as a competent bureaucracy backed by statistics, logic, and science -- but that's not a cultural trait that you'll pick up on the streets of Toronto.

 

[viktorh48]

Leon and Scylla, sorry to bother you, but can you answer my Q, in finance/taxation thread ?



thanks in advance

 

[newtone]

The most important difference, disregarding the language issue, is that Canadians mostly agree on a vision of the government as a competent bureaucracy backed by statistics, logic, and science -- but that's not a cultural trait that you'll pick up on the streets of Toronto.

Really? or are they forced to? Ask any Canadian if they like to pay more tax than what they are already playing. Ask them how they feel about paying $40 for a pair of jeans when they can get the same jeans in USA for less than half the cost. How the bureaucratic red tape that is so institutionalized in every aspect of business that its literally killing corporations? It only took them 15 years to decide to extend the downsview subway line to Vaughan. I dont think I'll be alive by the time they decide to think to extend to Brampton which happens to also be part of GTA. So this is how divided people are in Canada and the pace of development of a so called developed world. I've travelled on subways in many cities but when I looked at the subway in Toronto it reminded me of pipes underneath my kitchen sink. Just two lines!!! really??
When was the last time we heard of a Canadian multinational brand. I asked this to a lot of people and they were zapped for answers, and I'll ask you this question can you name 3 Canadian Multinational corporations (wholly owned Canadian)? By the way Black berry is up for sale. So there goes another iconic Canadian brand down the toilet. Germany is probably 100th the size of Canada and it produces BMW, VW, Audi, Mercedes Benz, only in automobile I havent even started on other industries, and people know these brands in any corner of the world. Sure Germany is an older country, lets talk about USA. I cant even begin to compare it to USA because there is absolutely no comparison.

The truth is Canada is no longer the Canada it used to be, it has changed, its become more like a place for criminals around the world to make their black money white. Construction is run by mafia, Corporations are regulated by government cause even before you lift a finger you gotta pay Ottawa. Lets talk about the common man, do you know how much it costs to renovate your basement legally? Do you know how much is costs to rent an apartment for a family of 4, do you know how much Canadians pay for car insurance or cell phone. The problem is there is no regulating body that represents Canadians to question these questionable figures and inhuman practices of the government and corporations. Its kinda like the British way of ruling, divide and conquer, keep people confused and divided so that they cannot unite against the government. They tried the wall street movement here, I was laughing my head off cause I know these people wouldn't last a week, cause people need to eat to protest and the price of food is high, add the harsh Canadian weather and before you know it Wall street movement turned into a Ball Street movement lol

Lets do some calculation so we can put things into context, I'll take Toronto as an example cause I lived there:

3 bedroom apartment, family of 4 1 wife 2 kids and yourself: $1500/month
cell phone bill, between you and wife: $100/month
cable tv: $50 (basic water down service)
car insurance: $500/month
petrol: $200/month
grocery: $400/month
ttc: $120/month
misc (eating out, clothing,entertainment): $500/month



grand total: $3370/month this is cost only

Lets work back wards:

New immigrant comes with PhD or Masters comes to Canada and obviously working at minimum wage $10.25\hour

Working 10 hours a day 7 days a week comes to $2870/month

This way he dosent even break even, not to mention he cannot give time to his kids, or any savings for a house, for the future, or to go on vacation, or put his kids to camp, or his kids university in the future . Well I bring to you the other working member of the family " the wife". So now the wife works the same kamakazi shift like the husband. Assuming wife is also making $2870/month. With both husband and wife working someone has to look after the kids, I bring to you the cost of day care $1000 per child per month. So $2000 goes to day care and so we are left with $370 savings per month, this balance will help them with planning vacations, putting a down payment for the house, saving for university education. Now obviously this will come at a cost and the cost is kids are growing up not seeing mom or dad for 10 hours a day 7 days a week.