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Was There Misrepresentation on Cabinet Minister's Refugee Documents?

links18

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https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/09/22/afghan-born-maryam-monsef-says-she-broke-down-on-finding-she-is-born-in-iran.html

Is the Cons IRCC critic implying she could lose citizenship over this? What are the big consequences she is referring to?
 

PMM

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Hi


links18 said:
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/09/22/afghan-born-maryam-monsef-says-she-broke-down-on-finding-she-is-born-in-iran.html

Is the Cons IRCC critic implying she could lose citizenship over this? What are the big consequences she is referring to?
1. She, her mother and 2 sisters claimed refugee status and received it based on their birth in Afghanistan, when she and her sisters were born in Iran. This could be construed as misrepresentation, but since she was 11 years old at the time of the claim, nothing will come of it. It is just politics after all. Mind it shows how well the Libs are screen their ministers.
 

screech339

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PMM said:
Hi


1. She, her mother and 2 sisters claimed refugee status and received it based on their birth in Afghanistan, when she and her sisters were born in Iran. This could be construed as misrepresentation, but since she was 11 years old at the time of the claim, nothing will come of it. It is just politics after all. Mind it shows how well the Libs are screen their ministers.
It also shows how important it is to vet the refugee very well. With the rush to bring in syrian refugees under the liberals, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more examples of this among them, due to poor vetting, meeting tight arbitrary deadlines.
 

devilsofnj

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screech339 said:
It also shows how important it is to vet the refugee very well. With the rush to bring in syrian refugees under the liberals, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more examples of this among them, due to poor vetting, meeting tight arbitrary deadlines.
I was thinking the same thing. But I was also thinking, how the Federal Government could miss something like that., but then again she was so young and she says she had no idea either. Not the end of the world.
 

screech339

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devilsofnj said:
I was thinking the same thing. But I was also thinking, how the Federal Government could miss something like that., but then again she was so young and she says she had no idea either. Not the end of the world.
I would wonder what would be the response had this occurred under the harper government. It would be a different tune at the government than what trudeau is getting now. Would the people say "oops, no big deal" to harper?
 

foodie69

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screech339 said:
I would wonder what would be the response had this occurred under the harper government. It would be a different tune at the government than what trudeau is getting now. Would the people say "oops, no big deal" to harper?
Mulroney actually..
 

Natan

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The birth certificates for many family members from my home country contain the wrong birthday, often off by as much as two weeks. Some registrars registered all births as having taken place in the provincial capitol, instead of the town of actual birth. In one case, a town registrar had decided that for a particular year all girls were to be named after flowers (e.g., Rose, Petunia) and colours a following year (e.g., Violet, Amber), completely disregarding the names chosen by their parents. One town registrar went to University and had learnt the then brand new spelling for one of the country's unofficial languages -- a spelling standard that 50 years later has still not taken hold, thus, for example, Steven was spellt Stiivan and James was spellt Jiemz. Another registrar had invented her own peculiar spelling rules, thus Yvette became Ivet and Gene became Djine.

When, in adulthood, people wanted to travel and needed birth certificates to obtain passports, they would discover these issues, often well into their 20s and 30s. And since it is almost impossible to correct these records back home, my family members were stuck with their new names, dates and places of birth. So, many of my family are called by one name by everyone in the country they now call home, and by another by their family members. They celebrate two birthdays, one with the people in their new country, the other with their family members (because we know the true birthday, and explaining that the official birthday is wrong can cause more problems than it's worth).

All of us have had to apply for immigration status in our new homes using the names, birth dates and birth places listed on our birth certificates, even if they are wrong. The certificates are impossible to correct and immigration officials are not interested in "your" truths -- they only believe what's on the documentation.

The bottom line is, although inconvenient, these "facts" are immaterial. One is no different, no less worthy, no less honourable, and no less profitable because data points like birth name, birth date and birth place are incorrect in the documented record. This is all the more true when the person in question did not even know that the data points in their documentation were inaccurate.

Let's hope politicians don't use this to revoke immigration status and deport people to gain political points, as was done in one famous Dutch case (i.e., Rita Verdonk's revocation of citizenship, and subsequent deportation, of fellow parliamentarian Ayaan Hirsi Ali).
 

links18

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Natan said:
The birth certificates for many family members from my home country contain the wrong birthday, often off by as much as two weeks. Some registrars registered all births as having taken place in the provincial capitol, instead of the town of actual birth. In one case, a town registrar had decided that for a particular year all girls were to be named after flowers (e.g., Rose, Petunia) and colours a following year (e.g., Violet, Amber), completely disregarding the names chosen by their parents. One town registrar went to University and had learnt the then brand new spelling for one of the country's unofficial languages -- a spelling standard that 50 years later has still not taken hold, thus, for example, Steven was spellt Stiivan and James was spellt Jiemz. Another registrar had invented her own peculiar spelling rules, thus Yvette became Ivet and Gene became Djine.

When, in adulthood, people wanted to travel and needed birth certificates to obtain passports, they would discover these issues, often well into their 20s and 30s. And since it is almost impossible to correct these records back home, my family members were stuck with their new names, dates and places of birth. So, many of my family are called by one name by everyone in the country they now call home, and by another by their family members. They celebrate two birthdays, one with the people in their new country, the other with their family members (because we know the true birthday, and explaining that the official birthday is wrong can cause more problems than it's worth).

All of us have had to apply for immigration status in our new homes using the names, birth dates and birth places listed on our birth certificates, even if they are wrong. The certificates are impossible to correct and immigration officials are not interested in "your" truths -- they only believe what's on the documentation.

The bottom line is, although inconvenient, these "facts" are immaterial. One is no different, no less worthy, no less honourable, and no less profitable because data points like birth name, birth date and birth place are incorrect in the documented record. This is all the more true when the person in question did not even know that the data points on their documentation were inaccurate.

Let's hope politicians don't use this to revoke immigration status and deport people to gain political points, as was done in one famous Dutch case (i.e., Rita Verdonk's revocation of citizenship, and subsequent deportation, of fellow parliamentarian Ayaan Hirsi Ali).
Wow! Food for thought.
 

screech339

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foodie69 said:
Mulroney actually..
I meant had Harper appointed this woman in his cabinet. Would we all be saying the same tune Trudeau is getting now?
 

PMM

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devilsofnj said:
I was thinking the same thing. But I was also thinking, how the Federal Government could miss something like that., but then again she was so young and she says she had no idea either. Not the end of the world.
1. Well she just became a year older today, as she now claims she was born a year earlier.
 

Leon

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PMM said:
1. She, her mother and 2 sisters claimed refugee status and received it based on their birth in Afghanistan, when she and her sisters were born in Iran. This could be construed as misrepresentation, but since she was 11 years old at the time of the claim, nothing will come of it. It is just politics after all. Mind it shows how well the Libs are screen their ministers.
Interesting case. Could her mother lose citizenship over this? What would happen to a refugee family with an 11 year old child if immigration found out earlier that they committed misrepresentation? Would the parents lose citizenship but the children would keep it because they weren't at fault?
 

Natan

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Leon said:
Interesting case. Could her mother lose citizenship over this? What would happen to a refugee family with an 11 year old child if immigration found out earlier that they committed misrepresentation? Would the parents lose citizenship but the children would keep it because they weren't at fault?
My feeling in this case is that place of birth will not be considered a material fact. My reasoning is that, despite having been born in Iran, she was an Afghan national and, as such, was equally qualified for refugee status regardless of her particular place of birth. Further, if all her documents attested to a birth in Afghanistan, and those documents were not obtained fraudulently (meaning they are valid, legitimate, and issued by a competent authority), she is unlikely to be held responsible for errors and omissions in her identifying documents, even if she knew they were mistaken. (Such documents can be notoriously hard to correct, and admission to Canada would be based on those documents, be they right or wrong.)

What is more likely is that politicians are going to try to make a big deal out of this, very possibly ruining the lives of many people, in their sociopathic drive for power.
 

Leon

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Natan said:
The bottom line is, although inconvenient, these "facts" are immaterial. One is no different, no less worthy, no less honourable, and no less profitable because data points like birth name, birth date and birth place are incorrect in the documented record. This is all the more true when the person in question did not even know that the data points in their documentation were inaccurate.
I guess you could always include a cover letter stating your real name and birthdate / place but like you said, it seems like a nuisance. You can legally change your name once you are in Canada if you want the name / spelling your parents preferred.

I know a guy who has no birth certificate, just a police letter stating that he doesn't have one. They did not issue them where he was born at that time.
 

Natan

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Leon said:
I guess you could always include a cover letter stating your real name and birthdate / place but like you said, it seems like a nuisance. You can legally change your name once you are in Canada if you want the name / spelling your parents preferred.

I know a guy who has no birth certificate, just a police letter stating that he doesn't have one. They did not issue them where he was born at that time.
Producing such a cover letter would only serve to undermine the credibility of one's identifying documents and any future documentation presented. One might as well stamp one's visa application "rejected" oneself. The birth certificate is a primary identifying document -- its data is factual as a matter of law. Relying on that data cannot be construed as fraud or misrepresentation even if one knows it to be inaccurate.

Changing one's name in Canada would not change one's name in my home country. (Name changes in my home country do not effectively change one's name, authorities and employers will always ask for your "real" name and completely disregard name change paperwork.) By changing one's name in Canada, one would possess two passports with different names on them -- a circumstance guaranteed to raise eyebrows at border crossings and likely subject one to pleasant interviews with delightful customs personnel in airport back rooms.
 

links18

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Natan said:
What is more likely is that politicians are going to try to make a big deal out of this, very possibly ruining the lives of many people, in their sociopathic drive for power.
That part is pretty much a given.