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Waiting + 3 months since test/interview to DM. Anyone else?

maob12

Star Member
Apr 9, 2018
64
14
It is possible that there are indeed referrals to update the clearances. More likely the call centre was parroting an essentially-no-problem-just-wait response to get callers off the line more quickly.

ATIP and call centre calls are generally useless exercises UNLESS there is a particular need or reason for them . . . and indeed, there are many who have real issues and real questions and these tools are useful for them, which is why it is so UNFAIR for applicants who have no real issues, no real questions, who are just anxious for the process to move forward, to bog down the call centre making it more difficult for those who have real questions to get through.

Unless you know there is a reason to worry, odds are very good there is no reason to worry. Like tens of thousands, literally TENS of THOUSANDS of others, all you need to do is WAIT, WAIT and WATCH for NOTICE from IRCC, and respond accordingly. Notice could come next week, next month, or it might take a long while, or even a very long while.


Efficiency standards:

The accusation that IRCC is inefficiently processing citizenship applications is all too casually thrown around with little or no evidence to support it.

Efficiency is a relative concept dependent on many factors, but in regards which cost/effort expended per outcome result looms far more importantly than the timeline. The most efficient process will expend the least resources to accomplish the best results. Measuring best results depends on priorities. Accuracy and fairness are undoubtedly far, far more important in the assessment of citizenship processing than HOW LONG it takes. Indeed, how long it takes probably has a relatively low priority compared to other markers or measures.

Processing citizenship applications is not akin to calculating the number of widgets produced per hour on an assembly line. In particular, a quantity/time measure is far, far less important than a quality (especially in terms of facilitating a positive result for those who are qualified and a negative outcome for those who are not) versus cost (human and financial resources) calculation.

Except for the narcissistic individual, for whom the timeline looms disproportionately important, his or her timeline in particular. There is a lot of "Hey, I am qualified, grant me citizenship soon" attitude rampant in the forum. I get it that people are anxious. For some there are real dollars to be counted, especially among those for whom a Canadian passport can help advance their career, and the sooner the better. But individual priorities are not necessarily concurrent with government objectives.

While I am not privy to the particular mental state of those who manage the citizenship application process at IRCC, my guess is that the timeline is of secondary importance. As I have said elsewhere, this is a process which will result in the granting of status for a LIFETIME, potentially a HALF CENTURY or more. How long it takes is important to individuals, yes, no doubt, but in the overall scheme of things there are other more pressing, more important priorities.

That is, while time is a factor in assessing the efficiency of a process, for some processes there are other far more important factors, and I'd submit especially a process like granting status, citizenship, FOR LIFE, is one.

Bottom-line: it all adds up to waiting.

Explain to me how quality is achieved by having a file that is complete sit in a pile somewhere waiting for an agent to pick up and grant the applicant an oath schedule.. We are not talking about a file that needs any further attention from the agent so your argument about making sure you are producing quality assessment is not valid in this case. The assessment has been complete, the agent or whoever had the file before already spent the quality time making sure this is a quality applicant. in other words, the process where you need a human assessing the application is COMPLETE.

Again, i get it, we all have to wait, but if there is a process that will save an agent even 5 minutes/application, i'd say it's worth looking into. Those 5 minutes multiplied by whatever number of application per day the agent goes through a day adds up to a lot. This frees up time for applications that need to be looked at more thoroughly hence making sure IRCC is producing quality applications.
 

HGA

Newbie
Jul 10, 2018
6
5
@dpenabill Dude, even though you are making absolute sense, but defending the IRCC in this forum and in this topic in particular is not helping.

Many people here are simply so mad and all the rational explanation doesn't make any sense to them.

Some applicants are the perfect candidates. straight forward crystal clear applications and they are stuck in IP for many many days for no clear reason.

IRCC has not been transparent. Those few words in ECAS don't reflect reflect 90% of what's going on in the background and leaves it to the people's imagination.

It's Canada. It's 2018. and IRCC is processing applications the same way a third world country would process them in the1990s
 

bslk

Member
Jun 7, 2018
13
4
It’s like calling and asking for information but instead it’s a form that send information to IRRC it’s like sending an email letting them know it’s been over a year since you send your application and what ever you want to say to them concerning your application sometimes they get back to you in 48 hrs. Try googling IRCC webform and you will find the website.
In 9 days I got an unswer for my webform. Nothing new, just common words. Hope Scarborough office is not frosen ))) and my web form has pushed them.

"Thank you for contacting Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC).

We are happy to provide you with information that will help you understand the current status of yourApplication for Canadian Citizenship - Adults.

Your application is currently at the IRCC office in Scarborough Ontario. This office is verifying if you meet the eligibility requirements to be granted Canadian citizenship.

Rest assured that you will be contacted if additional information is needed.

The next step will be to invite you to attend the citizenship ceremony. The local office will schedule an appointment for you in due course, if necessary.

We recommend that you verify the e-Client Application Status (e-CAS) online tool regularly to see when a new notice is sent to you.

We hope the information provided is helpful in assisting you with your enquiry.

We would also like to suggest the following online services that might be helpful to you with any immigration, refugee and/or citizenship future requests:



Sincerely,"
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,279
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Explain to me how quality is achieved by having a file that is complete sit in a pile somewhere waiting for an agent to pick up and grant the applicant an oath schedule.. We are not talking about a file that needs any further attention from the agent so your argument about making sure you are producing quality assessment is not valid in this case.
I do not have a clue what argument "about making sure you are producing quality assessment" you are referring to.

Indeed, I mostly attempt to EXPLAIN aspects of the process as best they can be discerned, recognizing there is quite a lot that goes on behind the curtain which we do not know a lot about. An explanation is NOT argument. But it does lead to this:

"Explain to me how quality is achieved by having a file that is complete sit in a pile somewhere waiting for an agent to pick up and grant the applicant an oath schedule.. We are not talking about a file that needs any further attention from the agent . . ."

It is an error to think that having a file sit in a queue achieves "quality." Not sure why you think it does. I certainly do not.

That said, the fact that there is a queue for almost every step in the process, and that a file in effect sits in a queue waiting for a processing agent to take the next step on that file, does not necessarily compromise or diminish the quality of services provided. Virtually every bureaucratic process involves some waiting in queue. Sometimes the queue is short. Like the other day when I renewed my vehicle registration. One person was in front of me in the queue. Sometimes it is lengthy. Like the other day when we went to the Service Canada office to address an issue with our OAS payments, when there were numerous individuals in the queue in front of us and it seemed like it was taking a long time for each person.

As I noted, an assessment of efficiency typically has a timeline element but there are many other factors which are relevant, and for citizenship application processing, the other factors loom much larger. Assuring that those who are qualified are granted citizenship and those who are not are not granted citizenship is FAR, FAR more important than whether the process takes ten months or twenty months. Indeed, since the status being granted is for LIFE, potentially for 50 or 70 years, the difference between ten months and twenty months tends to be of significantly lesser importance.

@dpenabill Dude, even though you are making absolute sense, but defending the IRCC in this forum and in this topic in particular is not helping.

Many people here are simply so mad and all the rational explanation doesn't make any sense to them.

Some applicants are the perfect candidates. straight forward crystal clear applications and they are stuck in IP for many many days for no clear reason.

IRCC has not been transparent. Those few words in ECAS don't reflect reflect 90% of what's going on in the background and leaves it to the people's imagination.

It's Canada. It's 2018. and IRCC is processing applications the same way a third world country would process them in the1990s
I do NOT defend IRCC. I make an effort to explain what I can figure out about the process.

It is particularly important to clarify that this forum is rife with unrealistic, virtually fantastic expectations these days. Scores of citizenship applicants come to this forum and see many, many posts in which it is either explicitly or implicitly suggested that citizenship should be granted in way less time than many of them will actually experience. This can, and undoubtedly does, lead to misunderstanding and unnecessary anxiety.

I get it that there are more than a few narcissistic, demanding, overly-privileged participants in this forum who are unreasonably angry about how long the process takes. And who are unfettered in expressing how mad they are. Saw a few of this sort recently on the 401, weaving lane to lane, tailgating, trying to push their way ahead in very long lines of traffic as if they deserve to get in front of anyone in their way. (Happily I do not drive the 401 often.)

One of the messages I have been trying to send (except for the last two weeks, during which I took a rather Canadian break, spending time on a lake and in the woods, paddling a canoe, catching some fish, watching a lot of sunsets, NO internet) is that qualified applicants who appropriately made an application for citizenship have NO NEED to WORRY. They can relax. Yes, they need to WAIT. They need to watch for notice from IRCC. And then respond accordingly. But there is no need to be making frequent calls to the call centre, or ATIP requests, or to otherwise fret over the timeline. For some it will be fast. For many, many others it will NOT be fast.

In the meantime, IRCC will likely process more than a half million citizenship and immigration applications this year, just like it has year in and year out, for many years. That is getting a lot done for a country with a population well less than forty million and while administering one of the geographically largest countries in the world. It is remarkable. That's just the way it is. But yeah, the traffic gets really backed up on 400 between Barrie and Toronto most days, and on the QEW between Hamilton and Mississauga. And citizenship applications can take a year or longer. Most stay in their lane and keep their blood pressure below boiling. Some, well we all recognize them for who they are. And we are not surprised when we see them on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck to haul off their crumpled vehicle or for the OPP or RCMP to finish writing the ticket, well steeped in their righteous anger sure that someone else is to blame.
 

imm_leb_01

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I do not have a clue what argument "about making sure you are producing quality assessment" you are referring to.

Indeed, I mostly attempt to EXPLAIN aspects of the process as best they can be discerned, recognizing there is quite a lot that goes on behind the curtain which we do not know a lot about. An explanation is NOT argument. But it does lead to this:

"Explain to me how quality is achieved by having a file that is complete sit in a pile somewhere waiting for an agent to pick up and grant the applicant an oath schedule.. We are not talking about a file that needs any further attention from the agent . . ."

It is an error to think that having a file sit in a queue achieves "quality." Not sure why you think it does. I certainly do not.

That said, the fact that there is a queue for almost every step in the process, and that a file in effect sits in a queue waiting for a processing agent to take the next step on that file, does not necessarily compromise or diminish the quality of services provided. Virtually every bureaucratic process involves some waiting in queue. Sometimes the queue is short. Like the other day when I renewed my vehicle registration. One person was in front of me in the queue. Sometimes it is lengthy. Like the other day when we went to the Service Canada office to address an issue with our OAS payments, when there were numerous individuals in the queue in front of us and it seemed like it was taking a long time for each person.

As I noted, an assessment of efficiency typically has a timeline element but there are many other factors which are relevant, and for citizenship application processing, the other factors loom much larger. Assuring that those who are qualified are granted citizenship and those who are not are not granted citizenship is FAR, FAR more important than whether the process takes ten months or twenty months. Indeed, since the status being granted is for LIFE, potentially for 50 or 70 years, the difference between ten months and twenty months tends to be of significantly lesser importance.



I do NOT defend IRCC. I make an effort to explain what I can figure out about the process.

It is particularly important to clarify that this forum is rife with unrealistic, virtually fantastic expectations these days. Scores of citizenship applicants come to this forum and see many, many posts in which it is either explicitly or implicitly suggested that citizenship should be granted in way less time than many of them will actually experience. This can, and undoubtedly does, lead to misunderstanding and unnecessary anxiety.

I get it that there are more than a few narcissistic, demanding, overly-privileged participants in this forum who are unreasonably angry about how long the process takes. And who are unfettered in expressing how mad they are. Saw a few of this sort recently on the 401, weaving lane to lane, tailgating, trying to push their way ahead in very long lines of traffic as if they deserve to get in front of anyone in their way. (Happily I do not drive the 401 often.)

One of the messages I have been trying to send (except for the last two weeks, during which I took a rather Canadian break, spending time on a lake and in the woods, paddling a canoe, catching some fish, watching a lot of sunsets, NO internet) is that qualified applicants who appropriately made an application for citizenship have NO NEED to WORRY. They can relax. Yes, they need to WAIT. They need to watch for notice from IRCC. And then respond accordingly. But there is no need to be making frequent calls to the call centre, or ATIP requests, or to otherwise fret over the timeline. For some it will be fast. For many, many others it will NOT be fast.

In the meantime, IRCC will likely process more than a half million citizenship and immigration applications this year, just like it has year in and year out, for many years. That is getting a lot done for a country with a population well less than forty million and while administering one of the geographically largest countries in the world. It is remarkable. That's just the way it is. But yeah, the traffic gets really backed up on 400 between Barrie and Toronto most days, and on the QEW between Hamilton and Mississauga. And citizenship applications can take a year or longer. Most stay in their lane and keep their blood pressure below boiling. Some, well we all recognize them for who they are. And we are not surprised when we see them on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck to haul off their crumpled vehicle or for the OPP or RCMP to finish writing the ticket, well steeped in their righteous anger sure that someone else is to blame.
A curious question that you rightfully may not want to answer but i will give it a try, in what field do you work, are you a lawyer, because the way you express your ideas is very well thought and written, it's impressive
 
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maob12

Star Member
Apr 9, 2018
64
14
I do not have a clue what argument "about making sure you are producing quality assessment" you are referring to.

Indeed, I mostly attempt to EXPLAIN aspects of the process as best they can be discerned, recognizing there is quite a lot that goes on behind the curtain which we do not know a lot about. An explanation is NOT argument. But it does lead to this:

"Explain to me how quality is achieved by having a file that is complete sit in a pile somewhere waiting for an agent to pick up and grant the applicant an oath schedule.. We are not talking about a file that needs any further attention from the agent . . ."

It is an error to think that having a file sit in a queue achieves "quality." Not sure why you think it does. I certainly do not.

That said, the fact that there is a queue for almost every step in the process, and that a file in effect sits in a queue waiting for a processing agent to take the next step on that file, does not necessarily compromise or diminish the quality of services provided. Virtually every bureaucratic process involves some waiting in queue. Sometimes the queue is short. Like the other day when I renewed my vehicle registration. One person was in front of me in the queue. Sometimes it is lengthy. Like the other day when we went to the Service Canada office to address an issue with our OAS payments, when there were numerous individuals in the queue in front of us and it seemed like it was taking a long time for each person.

As I noted, an assessment of efficiency typically has a timeline element but there are many other factors which are relevant, and for citizenship application processing, the other factors loom much larger. Assuring that those who are qualified are granted citizenship and those who are not are not granted citizenship is FAR, FAR more important than whether the process takes ten months or twenty months. Indeed, since the status being granted is for LIFE, potentially for 50 or 70 years, the difference between ten months and twenty months tends to be of significantly lesser importance.



I do NOT defend IRCC. I make an effort to explain what I can figure out about the process.

It is particularly important to clarify that this forum is rife with unrealistic, virtually fantastic expectations these days. Scores of citizenship applicants come to this forum and see many, many posts in which it is either explicitly or implicitly suggested that citizenship should be granted in way less time than many of them will actually experience. This can, and undoubtedly does, lead to misunderstanding and unnecessary anxiety.

I get it that there are more than a few narcissistic, demanding, overly-privileged participants in this forum who are unreasonably angry about how long the process takes. And who are unfettered in expressing how mad they are. Saw a few of this sort recently on the 401, weaving lane to lane, tailgating, trying to push their way ahead in very long lines of traffic as if they deserve to get in front of anyone in their way. (Happily I do not drive the 401 often.)

One of the messages I have been trying to send (except for the last two weeks, during which I took a rather Canadian break, spending time on a lake and in the woods, paddling a canoe, catching some fish, watching a lot of sunsets, NO internet) is that qualified applicants who appropriately made an application for citizenship have NO NEED to WORRY. They can relax. Yes, they need to WAIT. They need to watch for notice from IRCC. And then respond accordingly. But there is no need to be making frequent calls to the call centre, or ATIP requests, or to otherwise fret over the timeline. For some it will be fast. For many, many others it will NOT be fast.

In the meantime, IRCC will likely process more than a half million citizenship and immigration applications this year, just like it has year in and year out, for many years. That is getting a lot done for a country with a population well less than forty million and while administering one of the geographically largest countries in the world. It is remarkable. That's just the way it is. But yeah, the traffic gets really backed up on 400 between Barrie and Toronto most days, and on the QEW between Hamilton and Mississauga. And citizenship applications can take a year or longer. Most stay in their lane and keep their blood pressure below boiling. Some, well we all recognize them for who they are. And we are not surprised when we see them on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck to haul off their crumpled vehicle or for the OPP or RCMP to finish writing the ticket, well steeped in their righteous anger sure that someone else is to blame.

You write 3 paragraphs of sentences, all saying the same thing. You are not even understanding my point, you just keep going on and on about what bureaucracy is.

"It is an error to think that having a file sit in a queue achieves "quality." Not sure why you think it does. I certainly do not."

That is absolutely not what i said lol. In fact it is quite the opposite of what i said. You were saying that agents need to spend time on an application to make sure they are producing quality applications. And I was asking you, which part of having a file that is complete sit in a pile somewhere waiting for an agent to pick up and grant the applicant an oath schedule, translates to producing quality? This is like buying your ticket to a museum online, only to get there and have them tell you that you have to wait in line with everybody else that do not have their ticket.

A file has to sit in a queue, when it needs human attention ie everything before completing all necessary steps for the oath. A file does NOT need to sit in a queue if everything is complete and the applicant is only waiting for a SCHEDULING process, something that can be done automatically. I don't understand why this is so hard to agree on.

Efficiency is the ratio of useful work you get out from a process to the amount of work you put in. Agents work less, efficiency goes up. As simple as that. Why should they work more for things that can be done by a machine?

As a matter of fact, i took a break too, although i was kayaking but wasn't very fortunate with catching fish. The sunsets were indeed beautiful though, much later than when they happen in the GTA. Went to sleep to the sound of the loons calling and fish jumping in the water. I am not stressed or upset, simply trying to understand how we can make things better. After all, this is what i do for a living.


 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,279
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A curious question that you rightfully may not want to answer but i will give it a try, in what field do you work, are you a lawyer, because the way you express your ideas is very well thought and written, it's impressive
Thank you for the kind comments.

To be clear, I am NOT a Canadian lawyer. And, actually I have NO professional experience in Canada of any sort . . . other than the fact that I am on a work-until-I-die retirement plan (due in large part to some rather ugly errors in judgment earlier in life; lessons learned the hard way) in which I do the work here, in Canada, but work that is entirely for consumption outside Canada.

Otherwise, sure, I suspect it is rather obvious I have a long (for context, I am well past OAS eligibility age), deep, and an extensive and intensive background in matters of jurisprudence as well as professional writing, including the tendency to be excessively wordy too often spilling into verbose. One could safely say I have studied, read, analyzed, and written about more than a few legal issues . . . not quite for a full half century, yet, but four decades into it now.


Note: to be clear, I recognize that venting is a big part of this forum and that is OK. But a lot of the frustration expressed here in the last several months is unwarranted and tends to skew things, tending to give a wrong impression about how long the process will take or to give the impression things are mired in a tangled mess of bureaucratic bungling. Casual visitors and those with real questions deserve a more accurate picture of how things are and how they work. Sure, there have been times when the bureaucracy has gone way off the rails. Skilled worker PR visa applications a decade ago, or so, for example, got way way off the rails. And citizenship applications got miserably bogged down in 2009 through 2011, and then they too went well off the rails in 2012 in the wake of OB 407 . . . during the latter imbroglio many, many applicants saw a timeline exceeding TWO YEARS, and a large number got bogged down in the pre-test RQ process and had to wait more than THREE YEARS.

This year the timeline is almost certain to increase above long term, reasonable expectations (which have tended to be six to twelve months, most leaning toward 8 to 10 months), due to the surge in applications in the last quarter of 2017 and changes implemented. That is just how it is. BUT there is little or no hint that there is going to be a repeat of the 2012 disaster.
 
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dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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simply trying to understand how we can make things better
Almost every aspect of human activity can be improved, made better. Kudos to all who strive to really improve things.

Bureaucratic processes tend to have lots and lots of room for improvement. These are not so easily accomplished, however, and especially when there are many competing priorities to consider.

As far as I am aware, current policy still requires a GCMS check EVERY TIME any action is taken on a file. This cannot be automated under current procedures requiring the exercise of human judgment in assessing the GCMS background check. So, just scheduling an event like the test, the interview, or the oath, requires at least a processing agent to take action including a review of GCMS screening output (which includes things like reviewing FOSS and name-record criminal history records, at least for RCMP name-records and U.S. NCIC/FBI name-records, and probably INTERPOL as well although I am not sure of the latter).

Whether such manually-intensive steps could be eliminated, that is a separate question. That is a policy rather than process question.

As a matter of practice, in the past IRCC (or CIC before IRCC) often short cut the process by doing the GCMS background screening for the test and interview and oath in one step, at least for some applicants. In such cases, the oath is typically scheduled (as in a date, time, and place is designated) as part of the same action/task during which the test and interview is scheduled, whether the oath is scheduled for the same day as the interview, or within a few days or a week or three (mine was scheduled for the second day after my interview). BUT many (probably most) applicants do not benefit from this and thus will typically have to wait longer. In the best of times, the overall timeline for MOST (just most, just some number more than a majority, recognizing there are also many more who are not among the most) has tended to be six months to a year, with most of these taking 8 to 10 months. Circumstantial conditions occasionally cause the timeline to increase. This year applicants can anticipate a somewhat to significantly longer timeline. Main cause, obviously, is the huge surge in applications submitted in the last quarter of 2017.

Obviously, if more than a couple or four weeks pass following the test and interview, the risk of a change in circumstances increases accordingly. Unfortunately, citizenship applicants do not have a stellar record reporting changed circumstances. Indeed, oft times there will be posts in this forum suggesting applicants decline to timely notify IRCC of changed circumstances (like being issued a Peace Bond or otherwise involved in a domestic dispute, or being charged with driving while impaired . . . or moving to a different residential address). So, for applicants not scheduled for the oath contemporaneously with the test and interview, there will necessarily be (according to current policy) another GCMS background clearance check before the oath. For the procedure itself to change would require a change in policy.

As for changes in policy, the bottom line is that the government of Canada is almost certainly more focused on assuring appropriate outcomes than it is on decreasing the timeline. So, for the near-future efforts to improve efficiency are far more likely to focus on outcome elements than on the timeline.

In the meantime, sure, improvement is a worthy endeavor. My sense is that there are indeed individuals within the IRCC hierarchy who have duties related to improving timelines for all sorts of processes and the individual steps in the process. But it is my sense other aspects of the procedure have a greater priority and the citizenship application timeline is down the list. How it works, now, is how it works, and this is what dictates REASONABLE EXPECTATIONS. What is troublesome, lately, is the extent to which unrealistic expectations have so prolifically dominated timeline related discussions here. Just because the process is taking longer is NO reason for qualified applicants to worry. No reason to commence a call centre campaign or to consult with a MP or make the ATIP request. Qualified applicants can relax. The system is NOT broken. Their file is not lost. For the vast majority, all is well. Slow but well. As bureaucracies are wont to be.
 

maob12

Star Member
Apr 9, 2018
64
14
I just wanted to post a positive note, It seems like things are moving in Mississauga. Looking at the tracker, the Oath percentage is now sitting at 60%. Also, looking at other Mississauga forums, people have been getting updates more frequently now so i think we're almost at the end of the tunnel.