Urgent Question: Canada PR Card + US GC: moving from US to Canada?

[dash2013]

Hi, I've searched through the posts here but haven't found a similar case so any suggestions will be highly appreciated:

I landed in Canada in Nov 2008 so my Canadian RP Card is expiring in late Nov this year. Last year I received my US Green Card and have been at my current job since 2005. Last month I went to Alberta and the border officer didn't ask me about residency requirement (I only showed my US GC and my passport doesn't have any visa/landing stamping since I renewed my passport AFTER I landed in '08 -- essentially I used a different/new passport than the one I used for immigration application so I guess I wasn't in the system?)

Anyway, I don't fulfill the residency requirement and don't really have a humanitarian/compassionate reason for not staying in Canada after landing. There were merely personal (dating someone, which didn't end well) and career (I had a stable job and US GC was in process) reasons, and mostly just inertia and fear of change (I heard all kinds of stories about the impossibility of getting a decent job in Canada, while my US job is fairly secure). However, recently I had a change of mind and really want to permanently move to Canada. So my questions are:

If I quit my job now and pack up and just drive up to the Canada border with my soon-to-expire Canadian PR Card, will the officer report me to immigration and will I have to appeal? Do I have to stay in Canada for the 30 (or 60?) days while waiting for the appeal? Since I don't have humanitarian/compassionate reasons, what are my chances of winning the appeal? Sure I can come back to the US if I lose, but I'd rather not take the huge step of turning my life upside down if the chance is nil.

If I do get into Canada without issues, does that mean I cannot leave Canada for even one day until I stay the full 730 days, when I can apply for a renewal? I am not considering leaving if I am so lucky to enter without hassle, but I just want to know my options (since my parents are still in a third country).

Are there people here who decide to give up their US GC and move to Canada? I think some people (e.g., my parents) will think I am crazy, but I've kind of become obsessed with the possibility for a fresh start.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

 

[scylla]

Chances are probably pretty good that you won't be reported. If you're not reported, then yes, you'll need to remain in Canada for 730 days straight without leaving and then apply to renew your PR card.

If you are reported, then you will be called in front of a judge within 30 (?) days to argue why you should be allowed to keep your status. Given your situation (no H&C, very few days in Canada), I think a refusal is likely fairly certain. But again, I think the chances that you will be reported are quite low.

Something to keep in mind as you consider this change is that the US is far far less flexible when it comes to the green card. If you stay out of the US for more than a year - this effectively cancels your GC. Even if you're out for more than six months, I think you can expect questioning at the border. If you're not sure if Canada is really going to be your home, try to get a returning resident permit before you leave the US (you'll need to go this before you go). I'm not an expert in these visas - but getting one can allow you to remain out side of the US for longer periods of time without giving up your GC.

 

[dash2013]

Thank you, Scylla! When you said the chances of getting reported is very low, did you mean even if I present my soon-to-expire PR card (not by "slipping through" with my US GC), right?

Also, will the expiration of my current PR card have any impact on SIN card, health insurance, etc.? I think I got the SIN card after my landing but of course never used it. Will any government related applications examine the status of my PR card and result in denial once the govt offices notice that my PR card has expired?

Thanks for the additional advice re: reentry permit. I figure if I go, I have to go before end of Nov when the PR card expires so I have to time waiting for a permit. Plus, if I do lose the appeal, I just get back to the US within 2 months, which is still well within the 6 month minimum requirement of keeping the GC.

 

[Msafiri]

The US GC and Canadian PR conundrum....

1. You don't say how many days you have in Canada since landing but presumably just breaking into triple digits?

2. If you enter Canada on the US GC then CBSA agent will be wanting to know when you are returning to US. If you use the PR Card agent will likely ask about your absences and you could be sent to Secondary Inspection where you stand a real good chance of being reported. This is the one scenario where it seems better to enter on your GC. This also explains why passport stamps are not conclusive evidence of presence in Canada and why RQ is used by CIC requiring evidence of active life in Canada. CBSA doesn't do itself any favor if they can't see your PR status regardless of entry document used.

3. If you are reported you get 30 days to appeal. Once you appeal the case is listed for hearing at an Immigration and Refugee Board center likely at the city you landed or last resided in Canada. This can take anywhere from 12 to 18 months so your thinking of a 2 month window if things don't work out in Canada to US re-entry with GC is not feasible. Your appeal is a time wasting thing as you have no grounds - you are using up IRB's resources. Appeal will be dismissed and you will be issued a departure order.

4. The 730 days post entry are irrespective of entry document so whether you use GC or PR Card as long as you get in without being reported every day counts.

5. Every time you travel and return to Canada prior to 730 days without the PR Card is a risk that CBSA will investigate your absences at re-entry. You do not state your nationality but if you are not from a Canada visitor visa exempt country then you have to travel to the US and then on to Canada for re-entry you can't fly direct into Canada without a PR Card or Travel Document. I think you know applying for a TD when you haven't got 730 days is a bad idea.

6. US GC residence requirements make the Canadian 730 day rule seem like a walk in the park. CBP know when you leave and when you return...as per Scylla you are out more than 6 months then you are risking your GC. Re-entry permit is a must but how many times will you apply for this..eventually you have to decide whether to keep the GC by residing in the US. You are required to file US taxes at all times and this will be used to determine your residence status as will whether you have a US DL etc. CBP can be bad when you have all the paperwork imagine if you don't?

7. Most people in your situation that want to have both PR/GC live in a border town and commute back and forth to meet the residence requirements of both countries but eventually can you handle the stress? In the longer term you would need to get citizenship in one country first ((preferably US as you have started accumulating citizenship days) for this to work. Thereafter maybe look into re-applying for Can PR in future or maybe 'the as long as you can get in without being reported then get to 730 days loophole' will still still exist!

7. Its always best to stay in the place that meets most of your aspirations be they employment, family etc - if you are ok in the US then stay put...Canada or any new country can be a tough place but things do work out in the long term if you make the effort and get some breaks on the way.

9. Must be my advancing years but work on the principle of you can't have your cake and eat it with this one!

Good luck

 

[dash2013]

Thank you, Msafiri, for the detailed answers! I had no idea the appeal wait period is actually > 2 months!

1. You don't say how many days you have in Canada since landing but presumably just breaking into triple digits?

My time in Canada has been short: less than a week when I landed in 2008, and another six days last month just traveling.

2. If you enter Canada on the US GC then CBSA agent will be wanting to know when you are returning to US. If you use the PR Card agent will likely ask about your absences and you could be sent to Secondary Inspection where you stand a real good chance of being reported. This is the one scenario where it seems better to enter on your GC. This also explains why passport stamps are not conclusive evidence of presence in Canada and why RQ is used by CIC requiring evidence of active life in Canada. CBSA doesn't do itself any favor if they can't see your PR status regardless of entry document used.

So, if I enter Canada with my US GC and when asked when I return to the US, can I say 6 months (the maximum time allowed)? Then after I enter, I just stay put for 730 days?

7. Most people in your situation that want to have both PR/GC live in a border town and commute back and forth to meet the residence requirements of both countries but eventually can you handle the stress? In the longer term you would need to get citizenship in one country first ((preferably US as you have started accumulating citizenship days) for this to work. Thereafter maybe look into re-applying for Can PR in future or maybe 'the as long as you can get in without being reported then get to 730 days loophole' will still still exist!

Yeah, it's a sort of a gamble. I am only in year 2 of the 5-year wait period for citizenship. Even if I can get in Canada, it'll take at least 3 years to get Canadian citizenship so both take about the same time. It's just that I feel that Canada is a better place for me in the long run. I wish I had realized this years earlier!

7. Its always best to stay in the place that meets most of your aspirations be they employment, family etc - if you are ok in the US then stay put...Canada or any new country can be a tough place but things do work out in the long term if you make the effort and get some breaks on the way.

The truth is, the only tie I have with the US is my job and I am kinda getting tired of it (I know I should feel lucky to even have a job in this economy, but that's exactly the kind of risk-averse mentality that held me back from making the change after I landed). In most other ways (socially, culturally, politically, etc..), I feel that Canada is a better fit for me. Three years ago I did try to find jobs in BC online but didn't have any luck, but I guess Canada's job market is really more local-centric and unless I have some super unique skills that nobody else in Canada has, it's not likely they will consider those outside the country, despite my having a PR card and living just two states south of the border.

9. Must be my advancing years but work on the principle of you can't have your cake and eat it with this one!

;D Thanks, I know. For me it comes down to taking the "gamble" (taking advantage of the "loophole") or not. Sure I can apply again after I get US citizenship, but it seems rather pointless since by then I will be over 40 and it just seems too late. Or maybe I can try one of those new things like Alberta student turned immigrant route. It just seems my current PR card will be such a waste, but I should have known better. More soul searching needed... Thanks again for the advice!

Good luck

 

[Leon]

You can enter with your US GC and say you are staying a week. If you say 6 months, they will want to see funds and ask what you are planning on doing for so long. Do you have a SIN card? If you don't, you should take care of that before your PR card expires, same with health card and drivers license.

"Getting" citizenship is not 3 years either way. You say you are in year 2 of 5 to be able to apply for US citizenship so in about 3 years you can apply and in Canada, same thing, in about 3 years you can apply. However, in the US, a citizenship application takes a few months to process and in Canada, it's unfortunately more like a couple of years these days.

 

[scylla]

You can enter with your US GC and say you are staying a week. If you say 6 months, they will want to see funds and ask what you are planning on doing for so long. Do you have a SIN card? If you don't, you should take care of that before your PR card expires, same with health card and drivers license.

The other question I would have is how much stuff are you bringing with you? What kind of belongings? If you are bringing one or two suitcases with clothes and other similar items you would bring on holiday - then I guess you can enter using your US GC. If you're coming with a lot more stuff and the types of belonging people don't ususally bring on holidays (e.g. stereo system, microwave, lots of books) - then I think trying to enter on your US GC will be suspicious and you should use your PR card instead.

 

[Msafiri]

dash2013,

How do you intend to deal with CBP and that they will eventually send you to see an immigration judge on the issue of GC abandonment?

 

[dash2013]

I do have a SIN card, but taking care of health card and drivers license before the Nov deadline will be tricky, since I can't keep going back and forth between two countries for the paper work. I just checked and it seems citizenship in US takes about anywhere from 3 months to 9 months so that's fast enough (compared to the seemingly endless waiting for H-B->GC). Hmmm... Maybe it is more prudent to get established here first before moving up north. Argh!!! So conflicted! Thanks Leon!

You can enter with your US GC and say you are staying a week. If you say 6 months, they will want to see funds and ask what you are planning on doing for so long. Do you have a SIN card? If you don't, you should take care of that before your PR card expires, same with health card and drivers license.

"Getting" citizenship is not 3 years either way. You say you are in year 2 of 5 to be able to apply for US citizenship so in about 3 years you can apply and in Canada, same thing, in about 3 years you can apply. However, in the US, a citizenship application takes a few months to process and in Canada, it's unfortunately more like a couple of years these days.

 

[dash2013]

I am a minimalist so I don't have a load of stuff, or maybe I just never feel "home" enough to start accumulating stuff. The only "unusual extra" I have is my cat and I am not willing to give him up just because I want to leave. To tell the truth, I am not entirely comfortable about lying at the border (by presenting the GC), but it seems that's the best option if I really want to slip through without getting reported. Not sure what to do about the cat (put his carrier in the trunk before reaching the border? If he starts meowing I am finished, haha!)

The other question I would have is how much stuff are you bringing with you? What kind of belongings? If you are bringing one or two suitcases with clothes and other similar items you would bring on holiday - then I guess you can enter using your US GC. If you're coming with a lot more stuff and the types of belonging people don't ususally bring on holidays (e.g. stereo system, microwave, lots of books) - then I think trying to enter on your US GC will be suspicious and you should use your PR card instead.

 

[dash2013]

Well, if I do move north, I am not planning to keep the GC. I will prob. just stay put until I get the CAN PR card renewed, and then renounce the US GC? It's so weird. I waited for this damned GC for six years (longer if counting the years before my employer finally decided to sponsor me), and now I have it, I feel totally disillusioned. :-[

dash2013,

How do you intend to deal with CBP and that they will eventually send you to see an immigration judge on the issue of GC abandonment?

 

[Leon]

I do have a SIN card, but taking care of health card and drivers license before the Nov deadline will be tricky, since I can't keep going back and forth between two countries for the paper work.

You will not need any paperwork from the US to get a health card in Canada. You need to prove that you are residing in the province where you settled by showing a utility bill or bank statement and you need to show your PR card.

As for the drivers license, before you go, see if you can get a letter from the DMV listing your drivers experience and number of demerit points, if any. It may not even be required to get a license in your province though but if it is, then you will have it so no need to go back and forth.

The only "unusual extra" I have is my cat and I am not willing to give him up just because I want to leave.

I would suggest you get the proper paperwork and shots for importing your cat to Canada, see http://inspection.gc.ca/animals/terrestrial-animals/imports/policies/live-animals/pets/cats/not-recognized-as-rabies-free/eng/1364961486824/1364961633165 because you will have a problem if they find your cat and don't have that. They will likely not believe that you are taking your cat on vacation so you might want to think of another story like you will be visiting relatives in Canada where you will re-home it because you can not keep it any more or something like that.

 

[dash2013]

Thank you so much, Leon! A good reason why dogs are sometimes better than cats (it's perfectly normal to take a dog on a road trip!) ;D

 

[Leon]

You could act like you are under the impression that your cat actually is a dog. Tell them his name is Rover or Buddy or something like that. However, I am not entirely sure that will convince them to let you in