Social life in Canada vs USA

[margobear96]

I was so irritated by your condescending, racist first paragraph, I completely missed the second! My apologies. It's actually a very Canadian paragraph, from the strain of Canada that feels inferior unless it is approved of by the United States. Even if it were true (which it's not), there's no reason why an excellent Canadian university should recruit bright young American students -- is there any reason why a bright young American is better than a bright young Korean or Indian or Chinese student? Canada is perfectly large enough to support two or three excellent universities (e.g. Michigan, Wisconsin, California), and students come from around the world to attend them. If you study law, then you can't go to the States and practice, obviously; if you study business, the the connections you seem so fond of won't apply; but if you study any of a hundred academic disciplines, no one in the U.S. cares. I went from U of T to one of the top 10 schools in the States, and no one batted an eye; I met students there from around the world. Educational systems are so integrated between the States and Canada that many schools are accredited by the same commissions.

Actually, you can. Can't speak for every single state, but in the two big ones -- NY and CA, you just need to sit for (and pass) the bar exams. (Your Canadian JD/LLB is good enough -- even if you didn't finish an undergraduate degree first.) I think it's pretty much the same in the UK. If you've graduated with a law degree from a common law jurisdiction, you just need to take whatever exam they have. It's the reverse that's annoying (and another sign of Canadian provincialism). In Canada, before you can even think about sitting for a provincial bar, a national accreditation organization will assess whether or not your JD and the classes you've taken are good enough. Usually, it's not and they'll assign you a few subjects -- usually two or three, if you went to a US law school. You can then either take those courses at a Canadian law school or take the national exam in those courses, given once a year. Once you pass those, then and only then, can you sit for a Canadian bar exam. It's a multi-year process.

As for getting hired in the US with a Canadian JD, that completely depends on the economy and your grades. My husband (UBC LLB, no BA) got hired by a big firm in NY at the height of the internet bubble (NY firms were losing bodies to CA firms).

For US grad schools, I agree that attending a good Canadian university (not one of the community colleges masquerading as a "university") isn't really held against you for admittance -- there may be some funding issues though (federal loans, grant money may not be available). Getting into a US law school, business school or med school may be problematic with a Canadian undergraduate degree, but you wouldn't really go to the US for one of those with the intention of returning to Canada afterwards...so maybe those are the fabled Canadians going to the US for undergrad? Jesus, I really hope they're rich...their tuition bills for undergrad and professional school could buy a house outright...or at least a 2 bd condo in Vancouver.

 

[margobear96]

Confused with U Penn with Penn State? Really? It's unthinkable in my discipline. PSU (a jock school) doesn't even come close to U Penn.

Yes, but you said you're an academic. There's a good chance that the hiring guys at run of the mill companies -- the ones who hire BAs -- do confuse the two. Actually even before Sandusky, I think Penn State had higher name recognition than UPenn for the average American. Of course, the average American apparently can't locate their country on a world map....

Most Canadians can't afford to send their kids to top private US schools, but wealthy Canadians do. There are lots and lots of Canadians attending State universities and not so good universities in the US, but there are so few of American kids wanting to study in Canadian universities, so Canadian schools offer scholarships to these American kids.

Ah, so you are talking about rich Canadians. Out-of-state/international student tuition at state universities are not cheap either.

Yeah it's cheap to send your kids to Canadian universities, but what consequences your kids will face after graduation? Yes the job market is tough for university graduates in the US but here in Canada it's even worse, it's an ongoing social problem here. There are so many U of Toronto graduates waiting tables and working in retail in Toronto. It's not just immigrants who want to get out of Canada after getting a CA passport, but also Canadian university graduates who were born and educated here because there are so few job opportunities here. You'll see a disproportionate number of ESL teachers in Asia are Canadian college graduates. Canadian ESL teachers outnumber American teachers in most Asian countries, which tells us the state of Canadian economy. Remember Canada's population is one tenth of the US population, and a large percentage of Canadians (French Canadians) don't speak proper English. Like I said, ESL teaching is like a Mcjob. It's not a well-paid job at all.

On-hold thinks I have an agenda and that I'm hell-bent on Canada bashing. I'm not, and I'm just stating a fact.

Among my husband and me and our fathers, we have three JDs, an MBA, two PhDs and an MS (I know you probably don't consider a MS a real degree, but does it help that it's from Yale?). I'm blithely assuming my kids won't be stopping at a BA. I agree that the US has the best grad schools in the world. Possibly going there in the future for grad school is the primary reason I got them their US passports. Also, even if they aren't interested in further education, there is no f - - king way I'm letting any child of mine waste their time (and my money) by getting a useless degree. I feel like all the recent grads working at Starbucks, getting interviewed by the CBC, majored in English Lit, philosophy, ethnic studies, etc. WTF. I really think that even in Canada, there are jobs for BAs in engineering, chemistry, accounting, etc. And if not, there's always grad school .

 

[steaky]

Because you seemed to have trouble understanding the previous comments regarding Canadians "not traveling" (i.e., confusing moving somewhere with commuting). I think he/she was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming the problem arose because you were not a native English speaker.

Look at what you wrote originally: Most Canadians do not travel (at least within Canada).

With that article and link showing many Canadians travel south of the border to buy gas and milk, the fact is many Canadians do travel. I'm not confusing moving somewhere with commuting. I'm just saying people commute for education and work. It's you/on-hold who is confusing traveling somewhere with moving.

BTW, do or did you produce and drink your own milk in the US?

 

[on-hold]

I think this is an interesting thread that became a little too charged, I'm not sure why my family was ever brought in -- kingkong1's basic point has some truth in it, but he overstated it. Perhaps U.S. grad schools are, overall, better than Canadian grad schools, but that's just a function of size -- if you consider California as a separate nation, overall U.S. grad schools (i.e. non-Californian) would be better, even though California has Stanford and University of California. My original field, physical anthropology, is small and specialized -- when I graduated from undergrad long ago, there were three outstanding programs in the States; but U of T also had a good core with a professor who was currently well-thought of, with an active research program. I wouldn't have sacrificed anything by going there, but anywhere else in Canada would have been a step down. However, most places in the States would have been a step down as well. The quality of graduate programs can fluctuate quite violently in a few short years, particularly in programs that require good thought but no infrastructure. If you want to study, for example, First Nations of the Pacific Northwest, don't look at America vs. Canada, look at UBC against everyone else, and if you decide on Princeton, make sure you understand why.

As for rankings, they are a bit of a joke -- #1 vs. #3 vs. #9 is just stupid: but top 50 compared to top 200 is capturing something real, that's usually represented by a quality that is hard to measure precisely, the university's commitment (and ability) to hiring good professors. All that other stuff is useless.

One thing that confuses me about Canadian education today is the great proliferation of schools -- back in the early 1990s, it seemed like there were many fewer. This same thing has happened in Thailand -- teaching colleges started granting bachelor degrees, master degrees, and then doctoral degrees -- and it did not have good effects at all.

And for law, I didn't know that, ah world of wonders.

 

[margobear96]

Look at what you wrote originally: Most Canadians do not travel (at least within Canada).

With that article and link showing many Canadians travel south of the border to buy gas and milk, the fact is many Canadians do travel. I'm not confusing moving somewhere with commuting. I'm just saying people commute for education and work. It's you/on-hold who is confusing traveling somewhere with moving.

My original comment was a figure of speech...that on-hold, a native English speaker, understood immediately in the context of the rest of the paragraph. Kingkong1 also understood what we were talking about. If you genuinely believe that all three of us are confused in exactly the same way and that you're the one here with the best grasp of colloquial English usage...then there's really nothing more I can say.

BTW, do or did you produce and drink your own milk in the US?

I am an adult. I rarely drank milk in the US and had no choice as Monsanto successfully lobbied against efforts to label which milk came from treated cows. However, I now have toddlers who go through gallons every week. Even though I'm 30 minutes from the border, I would not drive to Bellingham CostCo to buy American milk.

 

[margobear96]

I think this is an interesting thread[...]

I found it interesting as well. I certainly did not know about the phenomenon of Canadians going to the US for undergrad as a way to immigrate.

Have you ever looked at the Education forum? It's a lot of hopeful, want-to-be immigrants debating job prospects after attending this or that glorified community college -- for certificate programs, not even a meaningless degrees. I honestly did not have the heart to comment there.

 

[PickleMash]

By the way it's pointless to go to graduate school unless you get a PhD or JD/MBA or other professional degrees that help you to get a job and make money.

How typically American! Um I don't know, how about postgraduate education purely for the sake of learning something, making yourself a better person and, come to think of it, a better citizen of the world. Did the value of education as more than a means to earn money ever occur to you?

Those Americans who disapprove of everything Canadian should go back across the 49th Parallel, stay there and keep their mouths shut. When will you learn that the rest of the world does not want or need your constant opinion?

 

[steaky]

My original comment was a figure of speech...that on-hold, a native English speaker, understood immediately in the context of the rest of the paragraph. Kingkong1 also understood what we were talking about. If you genuinely believe that all three of us are confused in exactly the same way and that you're the one here with the best grasp of colloquial English usage...then there's really nothing more I can say.

According to that link, the fact is Canadians do travel. There is no doubt about it.

I am adult too, but I prefer Canadian organic goat milk than American (cow's) milk.

 

[on-hold]

How typically American! Um I don't know, how about postgraduate education purely for the sake of learning something, making yourself a better person and, come to think of it, a better citizen of the world. Did the value of education as more than a means to earn money ever occur to you?

Those Americans who disapprove of everything Canadian should go back across the 49th Parallel, stay there and keep their mouths shut. When will you learn that the rest of the world does not want or need your constant opinion?

I agree with you, but there is also a strain of Canadians who look for approval with American participation.

Steaky, your argument about commuting is absurd.

 

[steaky]

Steaky, your argument about commuting is absurd.

Why?

According to wiki, commuting is regular travel between one's place of residence and place of work or full-time study. It sometimes refers to any regular or often repeated traveling between locations, even when not work-related. Was that absurd? If so, I have no further to say.

 

[on-hold]

Well, you can make any point you want and drag in wikipedia to boot -- but if your point reminds enough people of the dumb stuff they argued about at 3 in the morning of their freshmen year at college with the guy who dropped out after half a semester, you might find the thread degenerates a bit. I think you forgot an important bit -- even the people who don't commute, they walk out of their front doors and down off the porch, I bet there's a dictionary that defines these actions as 'traveling'. There's no way you can lose! Canadians travel, even in the middle of the night, from their bedrooms to the toilet!

By the way, what happened to your post that said you aren't arguing? Did you delete it when you decided to argue some more?

 

[margobear96]

How typically American! Um I don't know, how about postgraduate education purely for the sake of learning something, making yourself a better person and, come to think of it, a better citizen of the world. Did the value of education as more than a means to earn money ever occur to you?

If only that was a typical American attitude....

"One 27-year-old man from East Texas, who earned a bachelor’s degree in California, is now nearing graduation with another bachelor’s degree, in Russian literature, from Columbia University. He said he did not know how much debt he and his mother had accumulated in the course of his educational wanderings, sounding almost paralyzed by the prospect of talking to her about it." From the NY Times articles at http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/business/some-parents-shouldering-student-loans-fall-on-tough-times.html?pagewanted=1

There's a whole series in the NY Times about the appalling cost of higher education in the US and the less than sympathetic choices (my view, not the reporter's) that people have made to get themselves into crushing debt. Of course, the debt levels are not comparable in Canada. But if someone goes to school with your attitude and no rich parents to back it up, I just don't think you get to go on CBC radio to complain about how that degree you got didn't lead to the "job I deserve" (really did hear this one on the radio).

To learn something, pick up a book (free from your public library). To make yourself a better person, volunteer. To make yourself a better citizen of the world, read the newspaper everyday -- not just the sports section. (But do people really go to grad school to make themselves a better person or world citizen? What department is that?)

 

[PickleMash]

If only that was a typical American attitude....

I meant education purely for the pursuit of money. Quite frankly if someone is stupid enough to rack up crazy amounts of debt on some meandering decision path then they should seriously begin to consider whether they have the common sense, not just intelligence, required for higher education.

Whilst I agree with you about books and volunteering and a whole host of other non-university based activities, I still think that universities have a unique environment to provide. I seldom find the atmosphere of discussion outside a university, which I believe is important in learning to hear and understand others ways of knowing the world.

 

[on-hold]

I agree with both Margo and Picklemash -- one of the really terrible things that's happened to the US in the past generation is the way that state schools have been gutted, so that their fees are now high instead of nominal, and choosing a major unwisely doesn't just mean you turn into a poor eccentric, it cripples every option you have. One of the reasons I came to Canada is that I believe there is a chance that won't happen here. In my mind, U of T is not the 'Harvard of the North' (a stupid nickname), but more like the University of Wisconsin or UC Berkeley, a giant state school that's a little local but still good. I think the flagship institutions in each province have the chance to remain like that, though I think it's odd you never hear much about unis in the Atlantic provinces.

On a related note, why is it that Canada has created the excellent RESP, but then capped it at 50,000? Half again as high would make a lot more sense . . .

 

[steaky]

By the way, what happened to your post that said you aren't arguing? Did you delete it when you decided to argue some more?

I did modify my last two post in response of the absolute nisi decree and that post you talking about.