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Returning while not meeting RO - any recent experiences?

AlexTsiol

Newbie
Apr 6, 2023
1
0
I am a PR who would be returning to Canada with only 10 months left on the card, not having stayed in the country at all in the last four-plus year period (four preceding years were spent outside). So my card expires in 10 months and I have to be back in CA and wouldn't meet RO if I applied for a renewal on expiry on my card. I am aware of the below:
1. I am still a Permanent Resident at this point and still hold a valid PR card and should be able to travel.
2. Whether I am allowed inside CA or not depends on luck or the immigration officer. There is no specific rule, depends on each person's situation and justification.
3. If allowed to enter, then after my card expires, I would have to wait inside the country until I complete the RO before I can apply for renewal.

I would still like to know if anyone was in a similar predicament recently and managed to enter without any hassle and without losing their status. I am looking for anecdotal evidence to that may bring some hope. Are they lenient, in general? and if so, which port of entry was that at?

Even if the officer and the further process determines me to be ineligible to continue as PR, would I be allowed to live out my rest of the time period on the card inside the country or will I be sent back on short notice?
 

Ponga

VIP Member
Oct 22, 2013
10,086
1,298
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I am a PR who would be returning to Canada with only 10 months left on the card, not having stayed in the country at all in the last four-plus year period (four preceding years were spent outside). So my card expires in 10 months and I have to be back in CA and wouldn't meet RO if I applied for a renewal on expiry on my card. I am aware of the below:
1. I am still a Permanent Resident at this point and still hold a valid PR card and should be able to travel.
2. Whether I am allowed inside CA or not depends on luck or the immigration officer. There is no specific rule, depends on each person's situation and justification.
3. If allowed to enter, then after my card expires, I would have to wait inside the country until I complete the RO before I can apply for renewal.

I would still like to know if anyone was in a similar predicament recently and managed to enter without any hassle and without losing their status. I am looking for anecdotal evidence to that may bring some hope. Are they lenient, in general? and if so, which port of entry was that at?

Even if the officer and the further process determines me to be ineligible to continue as PR, would I be allowed to live out my rest of the time period on the card inside the country or will I be sent back on short notice?
1. Yes, in terms of appeasing a commercial carrier.

2. You will NOT be denied entry by CBSA, because even though you clearly have not met the R.O., you still have PR status. All PRs retain their status, even if they never renew their card, until said status is revoked for non-compliance of meeting the R.O., or is renounced voluntarily by the PR.

Only the PR Card it self expires. HOWEVER...you should be prepared in case CBSA starts asking about your Residency Obligation to maintain your status. If the officer(s) know, already, that you have not resided at all in Canada...you could be issued a 44(1) report that could lead to your PR status being revoked. You would still be allowed to enter Canada pending a possible hearing regarding your PR status being revoked.

It's worth noting that some PRs who have not meet (or cannot possibly meet the R.O. before their PR Card expires) have returned and had no issues, or questions at all. It seems that at least some semblance of luck plays a roll, sometimes.

3. Yes, but only if you were not issued the 44(1) report. Without a valid PR Card, it could be difficult to get provincial health care, a DL, etc.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,282
3,042
I am a PR who would be returning to Canada with only 10 months left on the card, not having stayed in the country at all in the last four-plus year period (four preceding years were spent outside). So my card expires in 10 months and I have to be back in CA and wouldn't meet RO if I applied for a renewal on expiry on my card. I am aware of the below:
1. I am still a Permanent Resident at this point and still hold a valid PR card and should be able to travel.
2. Whether I am allowed inside CA or not depends on luck or the immigration officer. There is no specific rule, depends on each person's situation and justification.
3. If allowed to enter, then after my card expires, I would have to wait inside the country until I complete the RO before I can apply for renewal.

I would still like to know if anyone was in a similar predicament recently and managed to enter without any hassle and without losing their status. I am looking for anecdotal evidence to that may bring some hope. Are they lenient, in general? and if so, which port of entry was that at?

Even if the officer and the further process determines me to be ineligible to continue as PR, would I be allowed to live out my rest of the time period on the card inside the country or will I be sent back on short notice?
While @Ponga addresses the gist of things, more specifically in response to your questions:

I would still like to know if anyone was in a similar predicament recently and managed to enter without any hassle and without losing their status. I am looking for anecdotal evidence to that may bring some hope.

Your situation appears to be quite common and there are numerous relatively similar situations anecdotally reported in this forum. If you are really interested, you need to do the homework, to at least browse topic titles looking for relevant discussions. You do not specifically say so, but I'm guessing your situation is like the most common scenario, a PR who did what many call a soft landing, planning to make the move to Canada within the next two or so years but then failing to make the move for more than three years. You should be able to find scores of anecdotal reports similar to this and also see many responses. If you do the homework.

However, many of those who post about this do not return and update how things actually went when they arrived at the Port-of-Entry. It will be appreciated if you do, when the time comes.

Overall the accounts about how it goes vary widely, ranging from PRs who are not much more than a couple hundred days past getting here in time to be in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation encountering inadmissibility proceedings, to a significant number waived through without a problem even though they are arriving here within a few months or even weeks of when their PR card expires.

Once the PR is in breach, however, which during the first five years occurs when the PR has been outside Canada more than 1095 days since the date of landing, there is a risk of inadmissibility proceedings. Possessing and presenting a valid PR card reduces the risk, but the more days abroad total, since landing, in conjunction with more days abroad since last in Canada, is the most obvious and dominant factor increasing the risk.

It is very difficult to quantify the risks more than that, although in general the risk probably goes up a lot if the PR has been abroad four years since landing and it is getting close to the date the PR card expires.

PRs for more than five years: This does not appear to be your situation, but if it is the risks are likely higher, and for such a PR who has been outside Canada four plus years since last here, odds of inadmissibility proceedings are most likely quite high.


Are they lenient, in general? and if so, which port of entry was that at?

Depends on what you mean by "lenient." In general terms CBSA appears to be very lenient with many PRs in breach of the RO. But that might be comparable to saying law enforcement is lenient with speeders driving ten to fifteen km over the speed limit. Thirty km over is a different story. Falling short of meeting the RO by one or four months is one thing. Falling short by four hundred, approaching five hundred days, that's another.

It appears that the biggest factor for PRs in breach by more than a year is whether they are waived through at the PIL (Primary Inspection Line), be that the booth at a roadway border crossing, or the kiosk at some bigger airports. This is where having and presenting a valid PR card probably makes the most difference. The vast majority of PRs presenting a valid PR card are not asked questions about RO compliance. For obvious reasons: nearly all of them, most of the time, are living in Canada, returning from travel abroad, and not even close to being in breach of the RO.

So what triggers a Secondary immigration referral and RO compliance questioning? Again, any PR in breach is at risk. The bigger the breach, the bigger the risk. Efforts to quantify the odds any more precisely tend to be guessing.

For a PR who was last in Canada four or more years ago, being waived through at the PIL eliminates the risk of inadmissibility proceedings. Which leads to the situation you described: if they stay two years without triggering a RO examination (no travel abroad, no PR card application), that will cure the RO breach and they can then apply for a PR card without risk.

But if there is a Secondary immigration referral and RO compliance questioning, we cannot say with certainty but it is very likely that size of breach makes it quite likely the PR will encounter inadmissibility proceedings resulting in a Removal Order UNLESS they have a good H&C case explaining why they did not return to Canada sooner.

There are no indications that any Port-of-Entry is better than another on any given day.

Even if the officer and the further process determines me to be ineligible to continue as PR, would I be allowed to live out my rest of the time period on the card inside the country or will I be sent back on short notice?

Worst case scenario is being issued a Removal Order. This happens when a second officer reviews the 44(1) Inadmissibility Report and determines (1) it is valid in law (meaning there is a RO breach), and (2) there are not sufficient H&C reasons to allow the PR to keep PR status despite the breach. This Removal Order is NOT immediately enforceable, so the PR is then allowed to proceed into Canada.

That decision terminates PR status, taking effect when the Removal Order becomes enforceable. (So no, the expiration date on the PR card does not determine how long the PR can stay in Canada.)

The PR has thirty days to appeal. If there is no appeal, the Removal Order becomes enforceable thirty days after it was issued. So that is the date the individual is no longer a PR but becomes a Foreign National (FN). The Removal Order then typically allows the FN up to thirty more days to leave Canada. So, if there is no appeal, the individual can typically stay in Canada for up to sixty days after being issued the Removal Order at the PoE.

If the PR makes an appeal within thirty days, the Removal Order remains unenforceable as long as the appeal is pending. The PR continues to have PR status pending the appeal, and thus can work in Canada, continue to travel in and out of Canada, and if the appeal lasts long enough, after the PR card expires the PR will be entitled to a one-year PR card . . . again, pending the outcome of the appeal.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,774
I am a PR who would be returning to Canada with only 10 months left on the card, not having stayed in the country at all in the last four-plus year period (four preceding years were spent outside). So my card expires in 10 months and I have to be back in CA and wouldn't meet RO if I applied for a renewal on expiry on my card. I am aware of the below:
1. I am still a Permanent Resident at this point and still hold a valid PR card and should be able to travel.
2. Whether I am allowed inside CA or not depends on luck or the immigration officer. There is no specific rule, depends on each person's situation and justification.
3. If allowed to enter, then after my card expires, I would have to wait inside the country until I complete the RO before I can apply for renewal.

I would still like to know if anyone was in a similar predicament recently and managed to enter without any hassle and without losing their status. I am looking for anecdotal evidence to that may bring some hope. Are they lenient, in general? and if so, which port of entry was that at?

Even if the officer and the further process determines me to be ineligible to continue as PR, would I be allowed to live out my rest of the time period on the card inside the country or will I be sent back on short notice?
1. yes you should be able to travel but once in the country it will be best to remain until you are back in compliance with your RO. If you spoken to about your lack of compliance your chances of being reported if you leave Canada again is higher. RO starts from landing date so you probably have 7-8 months left to meet your RO if this is your first PR card.
 

sayadil

Star Member
Sep 7, 2016
105
2
Hi guys i need urgent advice. we are a family of 4. I have been a PR since 2005 and have renewed my PR a total of 3 times till now.

My last PR was renewed in 2018 after getting it renewed under H/C grounds when my wifes immigration application was still pending.
I briefly came to Canada in 2018 after pr approval but had to return to india same year as couldn't leave my wife back in india. alone with my little baby.

2020 wife n elder daughter got PR so we came to canada in March 2020. We had our second baby in canada who is a canadian citizen. but We only stayed till September 2020 but had to return to INDIA as my father suffered a stroke and also later got covid. He got paralysed on one side, have medical records and the pictures of the same. He has been in a long time rehab since and is wheel chaired. We again thought of returning in 2021 second half but brutal covid in india made it very difficult. All of us got covid one after another. businesses were shut due to covid lockdown so it wasn't possible to return financially. 2022 things started opening but my mother whos a liver cirrohsis patient (she was the reason i was not able to maintain residency before 2018) had health issues with her disease progression.

Now we are finally planing to return sometime this month. My wife and elder one PR is valid till 2025 and they have more than enough time to fulfil the residency obligation. litle one is canadian so she doesn't need to be worried either. Its only me who is in breach of RO and my PR expires next month.

Now i needed advice whats the best way to return via direct flight to canada or via us land border. even though i have reasonable H&C grounds this time as well with sufficient proof but im still worried that if im stopped the officer may think why is it second time in a row im not able to maintain my Residency and again im claiming H&C consideration as i have less than one year stay in canada in last 5 years. So what should i do about it?

Also wanted to ask so since im in breach will they only have issues with me or my whole family who are not in breach? And is my second child being canadian any help?

any advice on how can i present myself better to a CBSA office is deeply appreciated. I have been a Canadian PR since 2005 and Canada has been my country for better part of my life. Its just that with sick parents here in India its hard to abandon them as they are reluctant to move anywhere.

Please advice
 

bricksonly

Hero Member
Mar 18, 2018
433
54
As your PR card is still valid, you can go with your families directly to Canada.
Although PR status depends on every single person's RO condition, returning Canada is much easier with families as citizens or RO satisfied PRs. This shows your intension to settle down.
Anyway, you still could face second review and if RO fail you will receive a report and then deport order. As your family is in Canada especially a baby citizen, you will be fine.
 

sayadil

Star Member
Sep 7, 2016
105
2
As your PR card is still valid, you can go with your families directly to Canada.
Although PR status depends on every single person's RO condition, returning Canada is much easier with families as citizens or RO satisfied PRs. This shows your intension to settle down.
Anyway, you still could face second review and if RO fail you will receive a report and then deport order. As your family is in Canada especially a baby citizen, you will be fine.

Hi thank you for your advice. We booked tickets to usa as we are four and tickets were literally half the price.

So we will enter via land border and hope we are not called in. It's all upto luck now

We have all intentions of living in canada that's why all this effort to get back . With sick patents things have been tough as they have done alot for me and I feel guilty not being there for them when they are so sick

Let's hope officer see through that
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,774
Hi thank you for your advice. We booked tickets to usa as we are four and tickets were literally half the price.

So we will enter via land border and hope we are not called in. It's all upto luck now

We have all intentions of living in canada that's why all this effort to get back . With sick patents things have been tough as they have done alot for me and I feel guilty not being there for them when they are so sick

Let's hope officer see through that
Would add that your family has to reapply for health cards and depending on the province didn’t meet their residency requirement to receive healthcare. The youngrst child almost 100% hasn’t met the requirement. The 5 years starts on the landing date not on the expiry date of the PR card as well. Given that you have not met RO twice, that you didn't resettle in 2018 (assume you likely indicated that if given PRTD based on H&C you planned on returning to Canada to settle) and the had a baby in Canada and left soon after there is a decent chance you will be at least questioned at the border and warned about meeting your RO. The issue of how will you be able to maintain your RO this time of you haven’t been able to do so for the past 10 years may also come up. Did you work during the 6 months you were in Canada? What about your home and belongings? Typically you would have a 12 month lease and most would not know how long they would be outside Canada if leaving due to a health emergency so would leave a home as is and only return to put things in storage or sell things once it was clear they would be out of Canada longterm. How soon after you had the baby did you leave? If you left right after having a baby the optics of the situation aren’t great.
 

sayadil

Star Member
Sep 7, 2016
105
2
Would add that your family has to reapply for health cards and depending on the province didn’t meet their residency requirement to receive healthcare. The youngrst child almost 100% hasn’t met the requirement. The 5 years starts on the landing date not on the expiry date of the PR card as well. Given that you have not met RO twice, that you didn't resettle in 2018 (assume you likely indicated that if given PRTD based on H&C you planned on returning to Canada to settle) and the had a baby in Canada and left soon after there is a decent chance you will be at least questioned at the border and warned about meeting your RO. The issue of how will you be able to maintain your RO this time of you haven’t been able to do so for the past 10 years may also come up. Did you work during the 6 months you were in Canada? What about your home and belongings? Typically you would have a 12 month lease and most would not know how long they would be outside Canada if leaving due to a health emergency so would leave a home as is and only return to put things in storage or sell things once it was clear they would be out of Canada longterm. How soon after you had the baby did you leave? If you left right after having a baby the optics of the situation aren’t great.

Hey there

So when my pr was last renewed after Secondary review on H&C I had mentioned to the officer the fact my mother has severe disease and also fact my wife n daughters immigration file is in process since 2017 it's difficult to live in canada and abandon wife with a small baby at the time and that's primarily the reason of my absence

After I got my pr renewed I did come to canada and spent 4 months before I returned to look after wife n mother at home
Father was still better though he too had suffered heart attack in 2016 followed by a heart surgery same year

My wife's file was process3d end of 2019 so we came to canada early 2020 that's when wife n elder daughter landed
Our bad luck was covid which started getting crazy around same time... so my work was non existent we still stayed with our Savings and child support that soon started .
Then father suffered a hemorrhage so we ended up leaving September I even applied for an emergency passport for younger daughter who was 3 months then and also emergency visa for India for her
Once we came back father was paralysed one side completely so it was tough to even move him around make him use washroom and other things as you can understand we needed as many hands as possible
It took months of physiotherapy for him to adjust to his disability so we thought we would return in mid 2021 but covid spread like crazy in india we all got covid and my mother even got severe covid illness including pneomonia and took months to get back normal as she is liver cirrohsis patient already along with asmatic as well so she got serious wirh covid and her cirrohsis progressed with ascites in stomach so she was constant folloe up witn liver specialists
Then 2022 things finally started improving but due to covid and health emergencies financial situation wasn't good to move back with whole family I mean tickets alone were touching 15000 canadian
Finally we saved n arranged and are coming back.

It's a long story but everything is backed up with medical proofs and even pictures of my father or mother through hospitals and other things

Last 10 years have been from he'll no doubt but through out these years I have frequently came back to establish residency but looked like God wasn't in favour

I'm just hoping officer can see this and also give weight to the fact that I returned no less than 5 times in these crazy 10 years Noone would do it if he dint want to settle.. it's not like someone did soft landing and 4 or later years came back to settle I was 9yrs in Canada before my parents started getting sick and I never travelled back not sure why I did not apply for cit8zenship guess I never realised that my parents who were so good all along would fall sick suddenly
 

sayadil

Star Member
Sep 7, 2016
105
2
I have been renting same place for last 8-9 yrs continously we keep the place despite traveling back to India as all my stuff over the years is in one apartment so we always keep the place.
 

sayadil

Star Member
Sep 7, 2016
105
2
I have always worked in canada and filed takes exception being 2020 travel of 6 months as covid I couldn't find any work
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,774
Was IRCC aware that you were outside Canada for a large portion of the sponsorship of your child and spouse? As a PR you were required to remain in Canada. Have you notified CRA that you are outside Canada and had them determine your tax residency status for many years whether you are entitled to any benefits. You are also required to inform the provincial health authority when you leave the country for an extended period of time. It always comes down to IRCC. One of the bigger issues is not actually settling in Canada after being granted the PRTD based on H&C and not remaining in Canada during the sponsorship of your spouse and child. Although hard countless families either make family planning decisions to delay children until sponsoring a spouse is complete or have remained in Canada waiting for sponsorship is complete for their family to join them because it is required as a PR. Being outside when there is proof of being the primary caregiver with not other family available is the aspect that is usually beyond’s someone’s control.
 
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sayadil

Star Member
Sep 7, 2016
105
2
Was IRCC aware that you were outside Canada for a large portion of the sponsorship of your child and spouse? As a PR you were required to remain in Canada. Have you notified CRA that you are outside Canada and had them determine your tax residency status for many years whether you are entitled to any benefits. You are also required to inform the provincial health authority when you leave the country for an extended period of time. It always comes down to IRCC. One of the bigger issues is not actually settling in Canada after being granted the PRTD based on H&C and not remaining in Canada during the sponsorship of your spouse and child. Although hard countless families either make family planning decisions to delay children until sponsoring a spouse is complete or have remained in Canada waiting for sponsorship is complete for their family to join them because it is required as a PR. Being outside when there is proof of being the primary caregiver with not other family available is the aspect that is usually beyond’s someone’s control.

Oh yes ircc Haa everything on file. Infact we had interview in India all three of us together at Indian consulate so even though process was started back in 2016 when I was in canada with valid pr but ircc was aware that I'm in India with family and new baby they were always aware of that.
Even in tax return my dates of leaving canada were mentioned. Ircc knows all my details till our landing in 2020 together as a family

Health card even back in 2020 was renewed after a month of stay and apart from wife's pregnancy don't think I have used health card since 2008 onwards
Always self supported as well through the years as I was always working

Sorry for these long msgs I'm just here to take advice incase I am stopped so I want to best present my scenario
 

sayadil

Star Member
Sep 7, 2016
105
2
Would add that your family has to reapply for health cards and depending on the province didn’t meet their residency requirement to receive healthcare. The youngrst child almost 100% hasn’t met the requirement. The 5 years starts on the landing date not on the expiry date of the PR card as well. Given that you have not met RO twice, that you didn't resettle in 2018 (assume you likely indicated that if given PRTD based on H&C you planned on returning to Canada to settle) and the had a baby in Canada and left soon after there is a decent chance you will be at least questioned at the border and warned about meeting your RO. The issue of how will you be able to maintain your RO this time of you haven’t been able to do so for the past 10 years may also come up. Did you work during the 6 months you were in Canada? What about your home and belongings? Typically you would have a 12 month lease and most would not know how long they would be outside Canada if leaving due to a health emergency so would leave a home as is and only return to put things in storage or sell things once it was clear they would be out of Canada longterm. How soon after you had the baby did you leave? If you left right after having a baby the optics of the situation aren’t great.
Youngest child is canadian so she doesn't have to meet any RO. So being canadian don't think she will have issues renewing health card. Wife and elder baby got landing in 2020 so they have 190 days spent already and have more than enough time to complete rest of days before 2025 (end of first 5 year period) they are not in breach of RO at all