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Residency Questionnaire - CJ hearing

Joanne111

Newbie
Dec 2, 2017
6
0
Hello,

does anyone know how is residency calculated/treated by citizenship judge if you have less than required min. days but you were traveling outside of Canada on behalf of the employer (e.g. you are working off shore on a Canadian vessel or you are traveling a lot to the States to support market expansion of Canadian company)?

Thanks for any info.
 

deerestlovelybear

Hero Member
Jan 20, 2015
712
203
Hello,

does anyone know how is residency calculated/treated by citizenship judge if you have less than required min. days but you were traveling outside of Canada on behalf of the employer (e.g. you are working off shore on a Canadian vessel or you are traveling a lot to the States to support market expansion of Canadian company)?

Thanks for any info.
There is no provision for counting any day outside canada for citizenship unless you work for canada government oversea. The provision is only for renewing PR card
 

amitdi

Hero Member
Dec 19, 2013
503
162
Hello,

does anyone know how is residency calculated/treated by citizenship judge if you have less than required min. days but you were traveling outside of Canada on behalf of the employer (e.g. you are working off shore on a Canadian vessel or you are traveling a lot to the States to support market expansion of Canadian company)?

Thanks for any info.
I am certain that time spent outside Canada for a Canadian company will not be counted towards citizenship. I am not sure about Canadian vessel, but from my gut feel, I think the says spent within Canadian border would be counted.
 

Joanne111

Newbie
Dec 2, 2017
6
0
Thanks for the answers, I have one more dilemma - wouldn't my application be denied by citizenship officer before I was even notified that there will be a hearing? Because my days are pretty off the minimum required (due to my work travels). I did the citizenship test also.

I am just trying to figure out what could happen during the hearing.

Thanks again.
 
Last edited:

amitdi

Hero Member
Dec 19, 2013
503
162
Thanks for the answers, I have one more dilemma - wouldn't my application be denied by citizenship officer before I was even notified that there will be a hearing? Because my days are pretty off the minimum required (due to my work travels). I did the citizenship test also.

I am just trying to figure out what could happen during the hearing.

Thanks again.
what have you entered in the physical presence calculator? havent you entered your travels that will have automatically calculated your physical presence days? were they less than the minimum?
 

spyfy

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Thanks for the answers, I have one more dilemma - wouldn't my application be denied by citizenship officer before I was even notified that there will be a hearing? Because my days are pretty off the minimum required (due to my work travels). I did the citizenship test also.

I am just trying to figure out what could happen during the hearing.

Thanks again.
If you have less days of physical presence than the requirement, no hearing will help you. You are not eligible for citizenship. It doesn't matter why you were out of the country, except under the rare circumstance that you worked DIRECTLY for the Canadian government or the armed forces. "Canadian company" is irrelevant. There is no leniency in the law. You must have 1095 days (or 1460 days if you applied before Oct 11).

If you are clearly below that threshold, your application will simply be refused.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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does anyone know how is residency calculated/treated by citizenship judge if you have less than required min. days but you were traveling outside of Canada on behalf of the employer (e.g. you are working off shore on a Canadian vessel or you are traveling a lot to the States to support market expansion of Canadian company)?
If the application was made after June 11, 2015, a short fall will result in the application being denied.

BUT this appears to be about an application made prior to June 11, 2015. Those applicants may qualify based on residency rather than actual physical presence. That means an applicant can qualify and be granted citizenship even if there is a short fall (less than 1095) in days present.

So the key factor is whether or not your application was submitted prior to June 11, 2015.


The following observations apply to an application made prior to June 11, 2015:

If yes, if the application was made prior to June 11, 2015, and it is a short fall case, these can be complicated. There is little recent reporting about how these cases have gone in the last couple years. While Harper was PM the trend was toward denying many if not most, if not nearly all short fall applications. But there were some reports and decisions earlier this year which hinted IRCC and CJs have been a little more liberal since.

The main thing, of course, is that the applicant was RESIDENT in Canada for at least a full three years, residency for this purpose meaning the individual's life was centralized in Canada. It is also critical to establish the first date that the applicant actually established a residence in Canada, an in fact residence. Days in Canada prior to that date do not count toward meeting the residency requirement when a qualitative residency test is applied.

There is a lot more to it than that. I do not have time to go into the particular criteria that is usually considered in these cases, often referred to as the Koo test or Koo criteria ("Koo" being the name of the applicant in the Federal Court decision which listed the criteria). Mostly, though, it comes down to showing a paper trail of a life centralized in Canada, and then down to the discretion of the CJ, and even if the CJ agrees to apply a qualitative residency test and approves a grant of citizenship, IRCC can still appeal that (and that is what the most recent cases about this have been, IRCC appeals when a CJ granted approval in a short fall application that was made prior to June 11, 2015).

A CJ can choose to apply a strict physical presence test, in which case the short fall application will be denied. That is, the CJ does not have to even consider any other test, but can deny approval based entirely on the applicant having less than 1095 days of actual presence in Canada (during the relevant four years).

That means you may have to persuade the CJ to apply a more flexible, liberal qualitative residency test, just to have a chance. Thus, it can be really important to show the CJ you deserve citizenship, that Canada is and has been home, that Canada is where you live despite work that involves being outside Canada a lot of the time.


There were two somewhat recent cases in which the CJ approved and the Federal Court also upheld the grant of citizenship in short fall cases but I do not have the citations or links handy.

The following decisions, with links, barely scratch the surface, and the outcomes are negative, but they should offer some insight into how the qualitative residency case is made:

Aman, 2017 CF 723 http://canlii.ca/t/h5kfc CJ approved application but Federal Court reversed . . . in-depth discussion of Koo criteria but this decision is in French (internet translating service can make the decision readable in English but these translations are full of errors)

Huang, 2016 FC 1348 http://canlii.ca/t/gw5bw Another case in which the CJ granted approval and IRCC appealed. And the Federal Court reversed. Koo criteria specifically quoted in this case.

Zadegan v. Canada http://canlii.ca/t/h4f9t CJ did apply Koo but denied approval, lost appeal

MAZIN HELMY AL-OBEIDI http://canlii.ca/t/gx7x3 CJ denied and lost appeal


One Federal Court justice's version of the Koo criteria:

(1) was the individual physically present in Canada for a long period prior to recent absences which occurred immediately before the application for citizenship?

(2) where are the applicant's immediate family and dependents (and extended family) resident?

(3) does the pattern of physical presence in Canada indicate a returning home or merely visiting the country?

(4) what is the extent of the physical absences -- if an applicant is only a few days short of the 1,095-day total it is easier to find deemed residence than if those absences are extensive?

(5) is the physical absence caused by a clearly temporary situation such as employment as a missionary abroad, following a course of study abroad as a student, accepting temporary employment abroad, accompanying a spouse who has accepted employment abroad?

(6) what is the quality of the connection with Canada: is it more substantial than that which exists with any other country?
 
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Joanne111

Newbie
Dec 2, 2017
6
0
what have you entered in the physical presence calculator? havent you entered your travels that will have automatically calculated your physical presence days? were they less than the minimum?
Good evening,

I have 804 residence days and I have applied before Jun 11 2015.
 
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Joanne111

Newbie
Dec 2, 2017
6
0
If the application was made after June 11, 2015, a short fall will result in the application being denied.

BUT this appears to be about an application made prior to June 11, 2015. Those applicants may qualify based on residency rather than actual physical presence. That means an applicant can qualify and be granted citizenship even if there is a short fall (less than 1095) in days present.

So the key factor is whether or not your application was submitted prior to June 11, 2015.
Good evening, yes my application was sent shortly before June 11, 2015.

I moved in Canada as a Provincial Nominee and live here since Jan 2011 as a permanent resident.

I had more absent days in first years of living in Canada then years closer to my Application.

I own a locally established company, but I also work for another Canadian employer and travel abroad due to the nature of my job.

I also pay my world income tax in Canada since 2011. But, I do not have property here, just a permanent rental.

And I do not have any family in Canada -meaning parents or siblings (but I also do not have my own family).

--

Thanks for your previous answer, it explains why is my application still in process although I did not meet that basic residency criteria.
 

Officer Green

Full Member
Nov 10, 2017
43
18
Good evening, yes my application was sent shortly before June 11, 2015.

I moved in Canada as a Provincial Nominee and live here since Jan 2011 as a permanent resident.

I had more absent days in first years of living in Canada then years closer to my Application.

I own a locally established company, but I also work for another Canadian employer and travel abroad due to the nature of my job.

I also pay my world income tax in Canada since 2011. But, I do not have property here, just a permanent rental.

And I do not have any family in Canada -meaning parents or siblings (but I also do not have my own family).

--

Thanks for your previous answer, it explains why is my application still in process although I did not meet that basic residency criteria.
The possible scenario has been already discussed above. As dpenabill indicated, you may get consideration based on the previous law which would allow citizenship who had strong attachment to Canada (with residential ties) in the case of previous applications (prior June 2015?).

However, as such decisions have been already challenged by the federal government, you can imagine what a CJ might decide in your case. Probably, not in your favor, but hope for the best and good luck.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-citizenship-judge-ann-janega-s-rulings-questioned-by-lawyers-1.3106816
 
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links18

Champion Member
Feb 1, 2006
2,009
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The possible scenario has been already discussed above. As dpenabill indicated, you may get consideration based on the previous law which would allow citizenship who had strong attachment to Canada (with residential ties) in the case of previous applications (prior June 2015?).

However, as such decisions have been already challenged by the federal government, you can imagine what a CJ might decide in your case. Probably, not in your favor, but hope for the best and good luck.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-citizenship-judge-ann-janega-s-rulings-questioned-by-lawyers-1.3106816
The government argued that the applicants didn't meet residency requirements--but it would seem to have been in the CJ's discretion to decide that based on the various tests.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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Nearly three hundred days short is probably a tough case to make.

But, we know a lot of people did like you and applied with a short fall in the months just before Harper's 4/6 rules took effect in June of 2015, and we have NOT seen very many reports about how that has gone for more than a very few of them. So we do not really know how IRCC has been deciding these cases. As I noted, IRCC has appealed some of the cases CJs approved, but that is a very, very small number of cases, whereas again we know that hundreds, probably thousands, made a short fall application in the first five months of 2015.

Some of the short fall applications we know have obtained approval suggest that IRCC has been significantly more flexible or even liberal in its approach to many of these cases. But that is a mere suggestion, and there are no where near enough reports to get a clear sense of just how these cases are being decided.

The nature and kind of work you did abroad, and how that relates to Canada, may be a big factor. But if it was pursuant to what was essentially self-employment, how it affects things could be tricky.

If you are intent on pursuing this application you might want to at least do an in-depth consultation with a licensed immigration and citizenship lawyer (not a consultant, a lawyer), to get some professional guidance in how to best make your case.

It is unclear whether you have already submitted a response to RQ or you have recently been issued RQ. Your response to the RQ is (or was) your best opportunity to make your case, to give information and evidence that supports the extent to which you were fully settled and living in Canada, despite some lengthy absences after establishing yourself in Canada.

If you have been living and working in Canada, actually present in Canada more than sixty percent of the time in the last five years (from December 2012 until now), that is, if you have been physically present in Canada three of the last five years, you meet the current qualifications and might consider withdrawing the application and re-applying. That could actually be the faster route to the oath. And it would avoid the expense of a lawyer.

If you have NOT been living and working in Canada at least sixty percent of the time in the last five years, and in particular if you have had lengthy absences since you applied for citizenship, the odds are high that will make it more difficult for you to succeed with this application.
 
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Jesuslovesyou

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Apr 13, 2017
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Nearly three hundred days short is probably a tough case to make.

But, we know a lot of people did like you and applied with a short fall in the months just before Harper's 4/6 rules took effect in June of 2015, and we have NOT seen very many reports about how that has gone for more than a very few of them. So we do not really know how IRCC has been deciding these cases. As I noted, IRCC has appealed some of the cases CJs approved, but that is a very, very small number of cases, whereas again we know that hundreds, probably thousands, made a short fall application in the first five months of 2015.

Some of the short fall applications we know have obtained approval suggest that IRCC has been significantly more flexible or even liberal in its approach to many of these cases. But that is a mere suggestion, and there are no where near enough reports to get a clear sense of just how these cases are being decided.

The nature and kind of work you did abroad, and how that relates to Canada, may be a big factor. But if it was pursuant to what was essentially self-employment, how it affects things could be tricky.

If you are intent on pursuing this application you might want to at least do an in-depth consultation with a licensed immigration and citizenship lawyer (not a consultant, a lawyer), to get some professional guidance in how to best make your case.

It is unclear whether you have already submitted a response to RQ or you have recently been issued RQ. Your response to the RQ is (or was) your best opportunity to make your case, to give information and evidence that supports the extent to which you were fully settled and living in Canada, despite some lengthy absences after establishing yourself in Canada.

If you have been living and working in Canada, actually present in Canada more than sixty percent of the time in the last five years (from December 2012 until now), that is, if you have been physically present in Canada three of the last five years, you meet the current qualifications and might consider withdrawing the application and re-applying. That could actually be the faster route to the oath. And it would avoid the expense of a lawyer.

If you have NOT been living and working in Canada at least sixty percent of the time in the last five years, and in particular if you have had lengthy absences since you applied for citizenship, the odds are high that will make it more difficult for you to succeed with this application.


Hi Joanne111,

I have a short answer for you; your case will be rejected. It doesn't matter whether you applied before or after June 11, 2015. I had a very similar situation to yours, in fact virtually same situation with same number of days and working for an organisation based in Canada. I applied for Citizenship back in 2012 with a letter explaining my situation. In my case, I even had my family living here, house under my name, just all the bills you can think of (hydro, phone, internet & TV, Car Insurance, phone, etc etc) were in my name just like I was physically present here. I was handed a RQ and I had all the back up you can think of. I did the Citizenship test with 19/20. My case was referred to a CJ in 2016 and he was so nice and at the end, advised me to withdraw and re-apply. I did and within 5 months I became a proud Canadian Citizen. So my good friend, there's nothing a CJ can do to help you. The best he can do, as was my case is to ask you to withdraw. And remember, asking you to withdraw and reapply is very good for you. It's far better than outright rejection. And I will advise you to suggest this during your hearing if you have doubts on the final Outcome. That way, he will prepare a withdrawal notice/form and you can sign in his presence. That expedites the process and you could reapply again within a week or two. I did just that and like I said the whole process took just about 5 months. Don't bother if you are asked in your new application form if you have ever applied for Canadian Citizenship before; just answer yes. I guess they do eventually verify that and the reason it was withdrawn and that shouldn't impede the processing. Hope this helps.......
 

NewUser2018

Hero Member
Jun 15, 2017
326
67
Hello,

does anyone know how is residency calculated/treated by citizenship judge if you have less than required min. days but you were traveling outside of Canada on behalf of the employer (e.g. you are working off shore on a Canadian vessel or you are traveling a lot to the States to support market expansion of Canadian company)?

Thanks for any info.
they will reject if u have one day missing on residency, they will tell you to RE-APPLY if they are nice to you or otherwise put only hold indefinately in archives.

they have ZERO tolerance on residency calculation mistakes as many people can commit fraud in what looks innocent mistake, this is because they use to be tolerant until their have been many busts in BC & Montreal areas people commiting serious residency fraud where people live in Hong Kong & Lebanon and have agent in town collecting & signing applications and provide mail address while applicants dont even live which has always been illigal but tightned under harper.
 
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Joanne111

Newbie
Dec 2, 2017
6
0
Hi Joanne111,

I have a short answer for you; your case will be rejected. It doesn't matter whether you applied before or after June 11, 2015. I had a very similar situation to yours, in fact virtually same situation with same number of days and working for an organisation based in Canada. I applied for Citizenship back in 2012 with a letter explaining my situation. In my case, I even had my family living here, house under my name, just all the bills you can think of (hydro, phone, internet & TV, Car Insurance, phone, etc etc) were in my name just like I was physically present here. I was handed a RQ and I had all the back up you can think of. I did the Citizenship test with 19/20. My case was referred to a CJ in 2016 and he was so nice and at the end, advised me to withdraw and re-apply. I did and within 5 months I became a proud Canadian Citizen. So my good friend, there's nothing a CJ can do to help you. The best he can do, as was my case is to ask you to withdraw. And remember, asking you to withdraw and reapply is very good for you. It's far better than outright rejection. And I will advise you to suggest this during your hearing if you have doubts on the final Outcome. That way, he will prepare a withdrawal notice/form and you can sign in his presence. That expedites the process and you could reapply again within a week or two. I did just that and like I said the whole process took just about 5 months. Don't bother if you are asked in your new application form if you have ever applied for Canadian Citizenship before; just answer yes. I guess they do eventually verify that and the reason it was withdrawn and that shouldn't impede the processing. Hope this helps.......
Thanks for the clarification. This helps.