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Regarding the ever popular discussion of a PR living abroad - meeting R.O.

Ponga

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I just replied to a post in the General forum, where the OP has been outside of Canada for over a decade. The initial responses were that an application for a PRTD would almost certainly be denied, but...if the OP is [now] the spouse or common-law partner of a Canadian citizen that is also living abroad...

Residency obligation

  • 28 (1) A permanent resident must comply with a residency obligation with respect to every five-year period.
  • Marginal note:Application
    (2) The following provisions govern the residency obligation under subsection (1):
    • (a) a permanent resident complies with the residency obligation with respect to a five-year period if, on each of a total of at least 730 days in that five-year period, they are
      • (i) physically present in Canada,
      • (ii) outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen who is their spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, their parent,

I, like probably many here, always thought that the PR would only benefit from the above, if he/she/they were married or in a common-law relationship before they became a PR, yet the Act doesn't expressly convey that...or does it? If this potential `loophole' allows a PR that has not met their R.O., who suddenly meets and marries a Canadian citizen abroad, then applies for a PRTD after 2 + years...would that likely be approved by IRCC?! I can't imagine so, but just wanted to solicit opinions.
 
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canuck78

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I just replied to a post in the General forum, where the OP has been outside of Canada for over a decade. The initial responses were that an application for a PRTD would almost certainly be denied, but...if the OP is [now] the spouse or common-law partner of a Canadian citizen that is also living abroad...

Residency obligation

  • 28 (1) A permanent resident must comply with a residency obligation with respect to every five-year period.
  • Marginal note:Application
    (2) The following provisions govern the residency obligation under subsection (1):
    • (a) a permanent resident complies with the residency obligation with respect to a five-year period if, on each of a total of at least 730 days in that five-year period, they are
      • (i) physically present in Canada,
      • (ii) outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen who is their spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, their parent,

I, like probably many here, always thought that the PR would only benefit from the above, if he/she/they were married or in a common-law relationship before they became a PR, yet the Act doesn't expressly convey that...or does it? If this potential `loophole' allows a PR that has not met their R.O., who suddenly meets and marries a Canadian citizen abroad, then applies for a PRTD after 2 + years...would that likely be approved by IRCC?! I can't imagine so, but just wanted to solicit opinions.
The person needs to live in Canada with their spouse after securing PR first and then move abroad to ensure they can count time abroad with a Canadian citizen towards RO. If they land in Canada and leave again then time abroad is not guaranteed to count towards RO.
 

Ponga

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The person needs to live in Canada with their spouse after securing PR first and then move abroad to ensure they can count time abroad with a Canadian citizen towards RO. If they land in Canada and leave again then time abroad is not guaranteed to count towards RO.
Thanks. Would you agree that, at first glance, the Act does not clearly indicate that? I know it's irrelevant in terms of how IRCC applies 28(a) in this hypothetical scenario, but wonder if anyone has tried to use this argument in the past. I suspect it's the "outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen who is their spouse or common-law partner" that people would try to `hold onto' in making their case; would be truly shocked if it was successful.
 

canuck78

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Thanks. Would you agree that, at first glance, the Act does not clearly indicate that? I know it's irrelevant in terms of how IRCC applies 28(a) in this hypothetical scenario, but wonder if anyone has tried to use this argument in the past. I suspect it's the "outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen who is their spouse or common-law partner" that people would try to `hold onto' in making their case; would be truly shocked if it was successful.
Yes there are lots of posts about cases who have used the who is accompanying whom issue. There are also a lot of different cases and very few who actually just land and leave again and them try to claim time abroad towards RO. Although there have been recent cases that have sided with the spouse who has not spent any time in Canada and they have been able to count the time it has resulted in a long legal fight. The government should really clarify the word accompanying because based on their arguments the intention is to avoid people landing and leaving Canada being allowed to count the time abroad with their Canadian spouse. In general if people want to guarantee that they can count time abroad with their Canadian spouse without a long legal fight they should not land and leave right away.
 
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Ponga

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Yes there are lots of posts about cases who have used the who is accompanying whom issue. There are also a lot of different cases and very few who actually just land and leave again and them try to claim time abroad towards RO. Although there have been recent cases that have sided with the spouse who has not spent any time in Canada and they have been able to count the time it has resulted in a long legal fight. The government should really clarify the word accompanying because based on their arguments the intention is to avoid people landing and leaving Canada being allowed to count the time abroad with their Canadian spouse. In general if people want to guarantee that they can count time abroad with their Canadian spouse without a long legal fight they should not land and leave right away.
Agreed! I was actually wondering about a scenario where the PR married a different Canadian (if they obtained their PR via spousal sponsorship), long after they had failed to meet the R.O. and if after 2 years, they had any chance at all in claiming the `time abroad with my Canadian spouse' would even fly. I would certainly hope not.

IMHO, the minimal requirement to maintain PR is extremely generous, much more so than the other side of the border!
 

canuck78

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Agreed! I was actually wondering about a scenario where the PR married a different Canadian (if they obtained their PR via spousal sponsorship), long after they had failed to meet the R.O. and if after 2 years, they had any chance at all in claiming the `time abroad with my Canadian spouse' would even fly. I would certainly hope not.

IMHO, the minimal requirement to maintain PR is extremely generous, much more so than the other side of the border!
I would hope not but I’ve lost faith in the system. Based on the rulings they probably could.
 
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dpenabill

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I just replied to a post in the General forum, where the OP has been outside of Canada for over a decade. The initial responses were that an application for a PRTD would almost certainly be denied, but...if the OP is [now] the spouse or common-law partner of a Canadian citizen that is also living abroad...

. . . potential `loophole' allows a PR that has not met their R.O., who suddenly meets and marries a Canadian citizen abroad, then applies for a PRTD after 2 + years...would that likely be approved by IRCC?! I can't imagine so, but just wanted to solicit opinions.
Skip the opinions. The outcome of a PR TD application will depend on which approach is applied, recognizing that there are at least three different approaches in interpreting what the "accompanying" credit requires. There is no for-sure answer.

See IAD panel Sergong, in Haddadian v Canada, 2019 CanLII 130720, https://canlii.ca/t/j5hkm quoting and agreeing with IAD panel Paquette, in Diouf v. Canada, 2011 CanLII 59952, https://canlii.ca/t/fn81r . . .

". . . surely the intention of Parliament was not to allow people who have been granted permanent residence to leave Canada and settle abroad and to allow those people who marry or are in a common-law relationship with a Canadian citizen to maintain or regain a status that would have otherwise been lost following an examination."​

In Diouf the PR "was outside Canada, had been for some time, then while abroad met a Canadian citizen, eventually married that Canadian citizen and then sought to claim their days together living abroad post-marriage as days towards meeting her residency obligation" (quote from the Haddadian decision). Credit toward meeting the RO for time the couple lived together abroad was denied.

Diouf is is one of the more often cited IAD decisions, particularly by other IAD panels (like Sergong does in the Haddadian case) which apply a who-accompanied-whom analysis in denying credit to PRs who otherwise were living together with a Canadian citizen spouse abroad.

If the Diouf approach is also applied to the situation you describe, the outcome is predictable: no RO credit for time abroad together. Citizen spouse can nonetheless sponsor the former PR, but that is only if the couple are actually relocating to settle in Canada.

But whether that is the approach that will be applied is NOT predictable. Although the wind probably leans some toward no credit if the PR makes a PR TD application. Anyone's guess if the couple can travel to Canada via the U.S. and they arrive at a land-crossing PoE together.

If the PR is denied a PR TD, or is subject to an inadmissibility Report and issued a Removal Order at a PoE, very difficult to forecast how it will go in an appeal to the IAD, since, again, there are at least three distinctive approaches to these cases, in two of which credit is likely denied based on limiting the credit to PRs who accompany (go with) the citizen abroad, but potentially being allowed the credit if the other approach is applied which will give credit for days the PR and citizen spouse "were spatially and temporally in the same location and ordinarily resident together."

All of which has been addressed at length and in-depth in this forum.

In particular, you should not be surprised that this, and other issues related to the credit allowed PRs accompanying-their-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad, have not only been discussed at length in this forum, but that there is a specific topic about situations in which a PR might be denied credit for days abroad during which the PR was with the PR's Canadian citizen spouse. Not hard to find either, since the title of that topic is "Who-accompanied-whom can matter for PRs living with citizen spouse abroad: UPDATE" and is here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/

Most of the cases and most of the related discussion are about whether "who-accompanied-whom" matters, whether the credit will be denied if it is determined the citizen-spouse was accompanying the PR, rather than the PR accompanying the citizen-spouse.

There is NO one-for-sure rule, despite the language in the applicable regulation, section 61(4) IRPR, which says, in pertinent part, that "a permanent resident is accompanying outside Canada a Canadian citizen . . . who is their spouse or common-law partner . . . on each day that the permanent resident is ordinarily residing with the Canadian citizen." See full regulation here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-9.html#h-686425

. . . and despite what is prescribed in the operational manual ENF 23, which refers to the language in the Regulation, referring to days the PR "ordinarily resides" with the Canadian citizen spouse (ENF 23 Section 6.1) , and further states:
"In the case of a permanent resident outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen, it is not necessary to determine who is accompanying whom, nor is it necessary to determine for what purpose. . . . as long as a permanent resident is accompanying a Canadian citizen, the intent and purpose of their absences are not relevant . . . "​

The different approaches have been outlined and compared in numerous IAD decisions; among those more clearly stating the range is the IAD decision in the 2019 In'Airat case http://canlii.ca/t/j4cls where the panel states that there are three main approaches adopted by IAD members:
(1) The permanent resident must accompany the Canadian citizen spouse or common law partner. There is not compliance if the Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner is accompanying the permanent resident spouse or common-law partner. In other words, the reason for leaving Canada must be initiated by the Canadian citizen spouse or common law partner.
(2) It does not matter who accompanies whom; however, the permanent resident and his or her Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner must leave Canada together or within a reasonable amount of time as accompanying requires the couple to go somewhere together and after reside together.[2] In other words, there must be a linkage to Canada as well as a temporal connection with respect to the departure from Canada by the appellant’s and his or her Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner.
(3) All is required is that permanent resident ordinarily resided outside of Canada in the same location and the same time with their Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner.

Applying the latter, for example, in the 2021 IAD decision for Nandita Roselent Chowdhury https://canlii.ca/t/jlj1s it is stated that the PR should be allowed credit for days in which the PR and Canadian citizen spouse "were spatially and temporally in the same location and ordinarily resident together." This is consistent with a line of cases following the reasoning for taking this approach articulated in the 2018 Mustafa decision http://canlii.ca/t/hs76z .

The other end of the spectrum (the first approach above), which distinguishes PRs accompanying citizen-spouses, for which the credit is allowed, versus those cases in which the citizen-spouse is accompanying the PR and credit is not allowed, in effect limits the credit to those cases in which (as stated in the 2019 IAD Gehrke decision http://canlii.ca/t/j4cms ) it "is the Canadian citizen spouse who is the primary person or the cause for being outside Canada."


My description of the three rather commonly applied approaches:

-- credit depends on who-accompanied-whom​
-- the Temporal-Nexus approach where it does not matter who-accompanied-whom but there must be a temporal connection in when BOTH moved from Canada to another country (that is, credit depends on couple moving from Canada together or at least around the same time)​
-- credit is available for any days the PR was ordinarily living together with the Canadian citizen partner abroad (does not matter who-accompanied-whom)​


Case reading list; the following IAD decisions fairly well illustrate these approaches, the reasoning for each, and their application in some particular circumstances:

Probably fair to say that Diouf and Mustafa represent and illustrate the opposite ends of the spectrum, and these are both oft cited IAD decisions.
 
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Ponga

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The different approaches have been outlined and compared in numerous IAD decisions; among those more clearly stating the range is the IAD decision in the 2019 In'Airat case http://canlii.ca/t/j4cls where the panel states that there are three main approaches adopted by IAD members:
(1) The permanent resident must accompany the Canadian citizen spouse or common law partner. There is not compliance if the Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner is accompanying the permanent resident spouse or common-law partner. In other words, the reason for leaving Canada must be initiated by the Canadian citizen spouse or common law partner.
(2) It does not matter who accompanies whom; however, the permanent resident and his or her Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner must leave Canada together or within a reasonable amount of time as accompanying requires the couple to go somewhere together and after reside together.[2] In other words, there must be a linkage to Canada as well as a temporal connection with respect to the departure from Canada by the appellant’s and his or her Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner.
(3) All is required is that permanent resident ordinarily resided outside of Canada in the same location and the same time with their Canadian citizen spouse or common-law partner.

Applying the latter, for example, in the 2021 IAD decision for Nandita Roselent Chowdhury https://canlii.ca/t/jlj1s it is stated that the PR should be allowed credit for days in which the PR and Canadian citizen spouse "were spatially and temporally in the same location and ordinarily resident together." This is consistent with a line of cases following the reasoning for taking this approach articulated in the 2018 Mustafa decision http://canlii.ca/t/hs76z .

The other end of the spectrum (the first approach above), which distinguishes PRs accompanying citizen-spouses, for which the credit is allowed, versus those cases in which the citizen-spouse is accompanying the PR and credit is not allowed, in effect limits the credit to those cases in which (as stated in the 2019 IAD Gehrke decision http://canlii.ca/t/j4cms ) it "is the Canadian citizen spouse who is the primary person or the cause for being outside Canada."


My description of the three rather commonly applied approaches:

-- credit depends on who-accompanied-whom​
-- the Temporal-Nexus approach where it does not matter who-accompanied-whom but there must be a temporal connection in when BOTH moved from Canada to another country (that is, credit depends on couple moving from Canada together or at least around the same time)​
-- credit is available for any days the PR was ordinarily living together with the Canadian citizen partner abroad (does not matter who-accompanied-whom)​
Interesting read, as always.

Not hard to find either, since the title of that topic is "Who-accompanied-whom can matter for PRs living with citizen spouse abroad: UPDATE" and is here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/
I wasn't looking for that exact verbiage, hence I did not search for that. The real crux of my thread was regarding a PR that was, in my opinion, fraudulently trying to claim R.O. credit from a new Canadian citizen spouse, whom they married after breaching their R.O., but again I appreciate your information.
 
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dpenabill

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wasn't looking for that exact verbiage, hence I did not search for that. The real crux of my thread was regarding a PR that was, in my opinion, fraudulently trying to claim R.O. credit from a new Canadian citizen spouse, whom they married after breaching their R.O., but again I appreciate your information.
There is no implication of fraud in the scenario you described.

As previously noted, the scenario you describe is very much like that in the Diouf case. The issue in such circumstances is whether the PR qualifies for the accompanying-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad RO credit. The IAD in Diouf denied the credit based on a determination the PR did not "accompany" such a spouse abroad; I can recall at least one other specific case where, likewise, the PR was outside Canada, had been for some time, then while abroad met a Canadian citizen, married that Canadian citizen, and then sought to claim their days together living abroad post-marriage as days towards meeting their residency obligation . . . and credit toward meeting the RO for time the couple lived together abroad was denied.

Many other IAD decisions agree with the reasoning applied in Diouf. But not all. So the outcome can vary despite the key facts being the same.

But, again, no fraud implicated. It warrants noting in particular, with much emphasis, that exploiting the letter of the law, including taking (or attempting to take) advantage of a "loophole" (as you suggested), is not fraudulent no matter how contrary to the underlying policies and purposes of the law.

That said, and this is something I make an effort to keep highlighted even though most discussions are oriented to the rules themselves and definitive answers, credibility can be and often is a huge, huge factor in how things go, particularly in circumstances where things can go in different directions. Whether one couches it in terms of exploiting the letter of the law or taking advantage of a "loophole," or as I tend to say, "gaming the system," if and when a total stranger bureaucrat in CBSA or IRCC apprehends a PR is more or less "using" (abusing) the system to keep status in Canada with no effort or plan to settle in Canada permanently, that tends to significantly elevate the level of scrutiny leaning toward a more strict approach in enforcing the rules.

Which is to say there is a difference between how the rules are applied usually, versus what can trigger the kind of scrutiny that leads to strict enforcement. Usually, PRs living with a Canadian citizen spouse abroad are NOT questioned let alone challenged about who-accompanied-whom (noting, for example, there is nothing in the application for a PR TD or PR card, or the checklist, which asks for information about who-accompanied-whom). As discussed in the topic specifically about this credit, there is a strong indication that the who-accompanied-whom question only (with perhaps some exceptions) arises in situations more blatantly indicating an abuse of the system.

But the scenario you describe is not necessarily about someone gaming the system, let alone there being any hint of fraud. In Diouf, for example, there is no hint that the PR entered into the marriage with a Canadian citizen for the purpose of keeping Canadian PR status. (In the other case, whose citation I do not have handy, it was otherwise; there were circumstances suggesting it was indeed a marriage of convenience, and using it to get RO credit an overt objective.) The reasoning in Diouf, and in many of the other IAD decisions applying that approach, is specifically oriented to interpreting the applicable statute (that is Section 28(2)(a)(ii) IRPA) and regulation (Section 61(4) IRPR).

The latter is important to recognize because the Diouf approach can be applied no matter what triggers the elevated scrutiny and raises the who-accompanied-whom question. Blatantly exploiting the system (which some might describe as fraudulent, even though there is no actual fraud) is of course more likely to trigger this, and most of the cases involving this tend to be among the more egregiously obvious situations, based on what we see the Minister's counsel advocating before the IAD it appears that once the issue is raised, the Minister's position is that who-accompanied-whom matters. Which is to say that the who-accompanied-whom question can arise and be applied EVEN IF there is NO indication the PR is deliberately gaming the system.

That said, if there is a temporal nexus in the move abroad, for a couple that was living in Canada together before the move, there is almost no sign they would need to worry about dealing with the who-accompanied-whom question.
 
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