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PR > Left CA as a Minor > Expired PRC

asmolnik

Newbie
Nov 16, 2017
9
0
Hello all!

My family was immigrating to Canada under Skilled worker category back in 2007. We first landed in Toronto back in Aug 2007 (at the time I was 11 years old), and became PR then.

We stayed there for approximately two months to check out the place (During which we collected our PR cards, and SIN cards as well), after which we left Canada. My mother got pregnant while we were outside the country.

So myself, my mother, and my younger sibling came back in 2008 for the time of her delivery. (My youngest sibling is now a Canadian citizen). We stayed there for approximately one and a half months, during which I was enrolled in a public school. But after that we left and never came back (It was the economic crisis period and my family wasn't hopeful of finding jobs there) (I obviously did not meet the residence 730 days minimum)

Fast forward to 2012, my PRC expired. (I was 15 years of age).

I finished high school in the summer of 2014. (I was 17 and 10 months old at the time) My family has decided for me to do my engineering degree in the UK (This decision was made obviously more than 8 months prior to my high school graduation due to the university applications starting very early in the academic year of graduation).

I will be graduating this summer aged 21 and 10 months (Still a minor (Child) under Canadian immigration law. at least to my understanding).

I would like to return to Canada and establish my life there and reside there permanently, as I was removed as a minor, I was essentially bound by decisions made by my parents on my behalf. And this is the earliest it was possible for me to return since it was not in my best interest to quit my degree.

1- What options do I have to go back?

I was thinking to apply for a travel document while I am in the UK before graduating, with this I am returning to Canada at the first opportunity.

2- What parts of my case would give me leverage in my application?
2.1 - Should I mention that my younger brother is a citizen? (he is living abroad tho, with my family not in Canada)
2.2 - Would getting a job offer in Canada help if I attached it with my application? (To show that I am coming back to become a productive part of the society)
2.3 - Any other Ideas of how I can make my case stronger?

3- Do you think I have any chance under humanitarian and compassionate grounds to apply for a travel document?

Or should I cross the US border,
4 - and if I do would I be able to renew my PR immediately or will I have to stay for two years before applying?
5- and if so, would I be able to work legally there in that time with an expired PR card?

If I go down the route of PRTD,
6- do you think requesting help from a lawyer would be of benefit? I would like to avoid going to the appeal process since to my understanding it can take years to achieve anything and I want to go to Canada as soon as I graduate.

Sorry for the long post, tried to make it as detailed as possible. Just like what I would write in my application.

If you have any other suggestions let me know.

THANKS IN ADVANCE!!
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,450
1,546
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
1- What options do I have to go back?

I was thinking to apply for a travel document while I am in the UK before graduating, with this I am returning to Canada at the first opportunity.

2- What parts of my case would give me leverage in my application?
2.1 - Should I mention that my younger brother is a citizen? (he is living abroad tho, with my family not in Canada)
2.2 - Would getting a job offer in Canada help if I attached it with my application? (To show that I am coming back to become a productive part of the society)
2.3 - Any other Ideas of how I can make my case stronger?

3- Do you think I have any chance under humanitarian and compassionate grounds to apply for a travel document?

Or should I cross the US border,
4 - and if I do would I be able to renew my PR immediately or will I have to stay for two years before applying?
5- and if so, would I be able to work legally there in that time with an expired PR card?

If I go down the route of PRTD,
6- do you think requesting help from a lawyer would be of benefit? I would like to avoid going to the appeal process since to my understanding it can take years to achieve anything and I want to go to Canada as soon as I graduate
1 . As you already noted, you can apply for PR TD or attempt to cross at USA land border

2.1 - Yes, in general the more family ties you have to Canada, the better
2.2 - It may help. It certainly won't hurt the app.
2.3 - Not much. You can state your ties to Canada and that you want to return permanently, but really the basis of your claim rests simply on being removed as a minor and returning now shortly after reaching age of majority

3 - Ideally people using the "removed as minor" H&C claim, have the best chance to be approved the closer they are to 18 years of age. Every bit of time past this age, decreases your chance of being successful. Going to university in another country is NOT typically seen as a valid H&C claim, since you could have attempted to return to Canada and go to university here. All anyone here can do is guess at your odds, only way to find out if you'd be accepted under this H&C claim is to apply and see what happens. I've seen cases get approved and rejected, for essentially identical situations as yours. Visa officers have lots of discretion whether they decide to approve your H&C claim or not.

4 - If you attempt to cross via land border, you may or may not get reported for breach of RO. If not reported and you pass into Canada easily, then ideally you would need to wait for 2 years without leaving for any reason to come back into compliance with RO and only then apply to renew PR card.

5 - PR card is irrelevant for working in Canada. All you need is a valid SIN. Your SIN is most likely in dormant status, so you would have to visit a SIN office to re-activate it. I've heard this is not that difficult to do.

6 - Using a lawyer is up to you. From what I've seen, people don't normally use lawyers for PR TD apps, but do use them if rejected and need to go through appeals
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
26,588
5,724
Doesn't sound like you were in the country long enough to get a health card or have coverage at any point so you will not have health coverage if you are able to cross the US border without being reported. I assume your parents paid for your brother's delivery. Given that your family spent very little time in Canada and you are attending a UK uni and then applying may be a challenge to get a PRTD approved. You never know!
 
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asmolnik

Newbie
Nov 16, 2017
9
0
1 . As you already noted, you can apply for PR TD or attempt to cross at USA land border

2.1 - Yes, in general the more family ties you have to Canada, the better
2.2 - It may help. It certainly won't hurt the app.
2.3 - Not much. You can state your ties to Canada and that you want to return permanently, but really the basis of your claim rests simply on being removed as a minor and returning now shortly after reaching age of majority

3 - Ideally people using the "removed as minor" H&C claim, have the best chance to be approved the closer they are to 18 years of age. Every bit of time past this age, decreases your chance of being successful. Going to university in another country is NOT typically seen as a valid H&C claim, since you could have attempted to return to Canada and go to university here. All anyone here can do is guess at your odds, only way to find out if you'd be accepted under this H&C claim is to apply and see what happens. I've seen cases get approved and rejected, for essentially identical situations as yours. Visa officers have lots of discretion whether they decide to approve your H&C claim or not.

4 - If you attempt to cross via land border, you may or may not get reported for breach of RO. If not reported and you pass into Canada easily, then ideally you would need to wait for 2 years without leaving for any reason to come back into compliance with RO and only then apply to renew PR card.

5 - PR card is irrelevant for working in Canada. All you need is a valid SIN. Your SIN is most likely in dormant status, so you would have to visit a SIN office to re-activate it. I've heard this is not that difficult to do.

6 - Using a lawyer is up to you. From what I've seen, people don't normally use lawyers for PR TD apps, but do use them if rejected and need to go through appeals
Thanks for the reply Rob_TO the information has been helpful.
One thing tho, with regards to point 3. Why is it that you think me attending university in the UK will not help in my application? won't that be one more reason as to why I couldn't come back earlier? My point was that this decision was made on my behalf since I was under 18 when it was made and once I became 18 I was at the point of no return having started university there.

Also, about going there through the US border. My current passport is not the one I had back when we first went there. So it has no link whatsoever to my Canadian PRC. Other than the name and my personal details ofc. But the passport number and everything else are all different since I renewed it. From your experience, would they usually check on the name on the system as well to see if I have had anything to do with Canada previously? Or how would they even think about reporting me if I don't show them my PRC?

And say I do go pass them without getting reported, how do I start my life there? What will I use as ID in Canada in the first two years while my PRC is expired? Will I be able to get a driving licence? Rent a flat? all these things..

Thanks for your help!
 

asmolnik

Newbie
Nov 16, 2017
9
0
Doesn't sound like you were in the country long enough to get a health card or have coverage at any point so you will not have health coverage if you are able to cross the US border without being reported. I assume your parents paid for your brother's delivery. Given that your family spent very little time in Canada and you are attending a UK uni and then applying may be a challenge to get a PRTD approved. You never know!
Would you say I have better chances in crossing the border then? If you were in my position what would you do? Would I be able to arrange to try both methods? or is it just one or the other?
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,450
1,546
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
Thanks for the reply Rob_TO the information has been helpful.
One thing tho, with regards to point 3. Why is it that you think me attending university in the UK will not help in my application? won't that be one more reason as to why I couldn't come back earlier? My point was that this decision was made on my behalf since I was under 18 when it was made and once I became 18 I was at the point of no return having started university there.
It may help. The visa officer will consider everything you present as a H&C reason. However based on records from past cases, typically education-related reasons are not seen as valid H&C reasons so are not given much weight. Any way you put it, going to a specific university is a personal choice you're making and you could have potentially made the decision to return to Canada and go to university here.

Also, about going there through the US border. My current passport is not the one I had back when we first went there. So it has no link whatsoever to my Canadian PRC. Other than the name and my personal details ofc. But the passport number and everything else are all different since I renewed it. From your experience, would they usually check on the name on the system as well to see if I have had anything to do with Canada previously? Or how would they even think about reporting me if I don't show them my PRC?
Assuming it's visa-exempt, you can enter Canada with your current passport. Just don't try to deceive CBSA that you aren't a PR. You don't necessarily need to volunteer this information, but be very careful how you answer their questions so you don't lie to them. If they simply ask your status in Canada, you would need to be truthful and tell them you're a PR.

And say I do go pass them without getting reported, how do I start my life there? What will I use as ID in Canada in the first two years while my PRC is expired? Will I be able to get a driving licence? Rent a flat? all these things..
SIN is the most difficult, so since you already got a SIN back in 2007 you would just need to reactivate it at any SIN office. PR card would only be required if you needed a brand new SIN.

For other things (drivers license, etc) every province is different so you'll need to investigate each government department and what they accept as proof of residency.
You shouldn't need a PR card for renting a place to live, or looking for work.
 
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asmolnik

Newbie
Nov 16, 2017
9
0
It may help. The visa officer will consider everything you present as a H&C reason. However based on records from past cases, typically education-related reasons are not seen as valid H&C reasons so are not given much weight. Any way you put it, going to a specific university is a personal choice you're making and you could have potentially made the decision to return to Canada and go to university here.



Assuming it's visa-exempt, you can enter Canada with your current passport. Just don't try to deceive CBSA that you aren't a PR. You don't necessarily need to volunteer this information, but be very careful how you answer their questions so you don't lie to them. If they simply ask your status in Canada, you would need to be truthful and tell them you're a PR.



SIN is the most difficult, so since you already got a SIN back in 2007 you would just need to reactivate it at any SIN office. PR card would only be required if you needed a brand new SIN.

For other things (drivers license, etc) every province is different so you'll need to investigate each government department and what they accept as proof of residency.
You shouldn't need a PR card for renting a place to live, or looking for work.
Thanks again for your reply.

Isn't the age that Canada considers as a "child" is any person under the age of 22? would that be of any benefit in my case since I still haven't reached the age of 22? (I will be in the coming summer)

With regards to crossing the border, I actually don't have a visa exempt passport. So It will only work with a US tourist visa only (which is a challenge on its own since I will be a fresh graduate soon and I don't technically have ties to any country. Or what can I consider as ties to a country, assuming my father would not mind sponsoring my travel costs etc.) If they do ask me about my status then I technically will face a lot of questioning as to why I didn't show my PRC to enter instead of the tourist visa wouldn't I? What would you say if you were in my position?

How about opening a bank account? Would using my passport be sufficient as an ID in any other situation?

To be honest I'm completely torn between applying for a PRTD or a US tourist visa, is there any chance for me to try both? What would you do if you were in my place?

I really appreciate the help you're providing.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
26,588
5,724
Thanks again for your reply.

Isn't the age that Canada considers as a "child" is any person under the age of 22? would that be of any benefit in my case since I still haven't reached the age of 22? (I will be in the coming summer)

With regards to crossing the border, I actually don't have a visa exempt passport. So It will only work with a US tourist visa only (which is a challenge on its own since I will be a fresh graduate soon and I don't technically have ties to any country. Or what can I consider as ties to a country, assuming my father would not mind sponsoring my travel costs etc.) If they do ask me about my status then I technically will face a lot of questioning as to why I didn't show my PRC to enter instead of the tourist visa wouldn't I? What would you say if you were in my position?

How about opening a bank account? Would using my passport be sufficient as an ID in any other situation?

To be honest I'm completely torn between applying for a PRTD or a US tourist visa, is there any chance for me to try both? What would you do if you were in my place?

I really appreciate the help you're providing.
Given that you are already choosing to study in another country there was nothing stopping you from applying for PRTD and attending a Canadian university. If you are arguing that you were removed when you wanted to remain in Canada it doesn't show that you were anxious to return as soon as possible. I assume that will be the main issue. You also spent very little time in Canada so it would be hard to argue that you had established a connection to the country. Yes the age that a dependent is allowed to be sponsored has been raised to 22 but that doesn't really have anything to do with your case. We can't suggest what you should do you'll have to make your own decision.
 

canuck_in_uk

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
31,633
7,055
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
06/12
Isn't the age that Canada considers as a "child" is any person under the age of 22? would that be of any benefit in my case since I still haven't reached the age of 22? (I will be in the coming summer)
You are confusing IRCC's definition of a dependent with the legal definition of a minor; they are two COMPLETELY different things. IRCC considers those under 22 to be a dependent; however, this does NOT automatically mean that they are legally a minor. You are a legal adult and have been for several years.

With regards to crossing the border, I actually don't have a visa exempt passport. So It will only work with a US tourist visa only (which is a challenge on its own since I will be a fresh graduate soon and I don't technically have ties to any country. Or what can I consider as ties to a country, assuming my father would not mind sponsoring my travel costs etc.) If they do ask me about my status then I technically will face a lot of questioning as to why I didn't show my PRC to enter instead of the tourist visa wouldn't I? What would you say if you were in my position?
As you don't hold a visa-exempt passport, you can't try to sneak in as a visitor. You would be immediately turned away without a TRV. You would need to declare to CBSA upfront that you are a PR and hope that they allow you in without being reported.
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,450
1,546
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
Thanks again for your reply.

Isn't the age that Canada considers as a "child" is any person under the age of 22? would that be of any benefit in my case since I still haven't reached the age of 22? (I will be in the coming summer)
That is just the age someone can be sponsored up to. Doesn't really apply to the H&C excuse of being removed as a minor. In general the age of 18 is when you typically are seen to have reached the age of majority, and can then make your own decisions.

With regards to crossing the border, I actually don't have a visa exempt passport. So It will only work with a US tourist visa only (which is a challenge on its own since I will be a fresh graduate soon and I don't technically have ties to any country. Or what can I consider as ties to a country, assuming my father would not mind sponsoring my travel costs etc.) If they do ask me about my status then I technically will face a lot of questioning as to why I didn't show my PRC to enter instead of the tourist visa wouldn't I? What would you say if you were in my position?
A US visa will get you to the US, not into Canada. So if you show up at the US/Canada border without a visa-exempt passport, then the ONLY way you're getting entry into Canada is by telling CBSA you're a PR. There is zero other way you can enter Canada, since as a PR you don't qualify for a Canadian TRV/visitor visa.

You can always state your H&C reasons to CBSA, and it will be up to them or Minister's Delegate to approve or deny your H&C claim.

How about opening a bank account? Would using my passport be sufficient as an ID in any other situation?
You can open a bank account without a PR card.
 
R

rish888

Guest
To answer your primary question, which is PRTD vs Land Border, you need to answer this question:

Am I willing to stay in Canada, for 2 years (730 days), without leaving even once, no matter the situation. This includes family emergencies.

If you are willing to do that, go through the land border. If not, then the PRTD is your only route.

For ID etc do you have your Record of Landing/Confirmation of Permanent Residence document? In most provinces, you can get a license and insurance with this. (To my knowledge BC is the only exception.)

If you don't have that document you can apply for a Verification of Status Document. It takes a little time to come but once it does you can use that document to get health insurance and a driver's license in most provinces.

As far as getting a U.S. tourist visa goes, maybe try your whole family applying together? Unless you are a citizen of one of the high-risk countries, getting a U.S. tourist visa should not be too big of an issue.

Hope it works out for you.
 

asmolnik

Newbie
Nov 16, 2017
9
0
@Rob_TO
@canuck78
@canuck_in_uk
@rish888

GREAT NEWS EVERYONE!!!

Thank you very much for your support and answering my questions..

I've spent the time since my original post researching and writing up my case for my application, I made the application and received my Travel Document.

I'm very happy and excited, truly words cannot describe how I feel.
After doing a long period of research and reading the laws, I have decided to include some personal circumstances in order to make my case clearer.

I would like to ask now about renewing my PRC once I arrive in Canada, from my understanding of the laws, this travel document is my confirmation from IRCC about my residency status in Canada. Hence I will not need to stay in Canada for at least two years before applying for renewal. Is that correct?

Would I have to apply for the renewal of the card myself or would it be mailed to me once I arrive? (I suppose they only mail it once you arrive in Canada for the first time) but would I be given the same treatment since I have not been there for long? Or can I ask the immigration officer to fire up an application from his side once I arrive at the airport?

Any advice on what should I do next? Should I keep my application documents with me when I travel to Canada? Are they going to ask for them at the airport? Is there anything I should keep in mind or do once I arrive at the airport?

I have a health card, and Social insurance number. Do these need any renewal or checkup?

If there are any documents and websites that could help me with my next steps I would be very grateful if you could tell me about them.


Thank you again!

This forum continues to be great as a resource for information throughout the process.
 

vensak

VIP Member
Jul 14, 2016
3,839
1,002
120
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
1225
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
@Rob_TO
@canuck78
@canuck_in_uk
@rish888

GREAT NEWS EVERYONE!!!

Thank you very much for your support and answering my questions..

I've spent the time since my original post researching and writing up my case for my application, I made the application and received my Travel Document.

I'm very happy and excited, truly words cannot describe how I feel.
After doing a long period of research and reading the laws, I have decided to include some personal circumstances in order to make my case clearer.

I would like to ask now about renewing my PRC once I arrive in Canada, from my understanding of the laws, this travel document is my confirmation from IRCC about my residency status in Canada. Hence I will not need to stay in Canada for at least two years before applying for renewal. Is that correct?

Would I have to apply for the renewal of the card myself or would it be mailed to me once I arrive? (I suppose they only mail it once you arrive in Canada for the first time) but would I be given the same treatment since I have not been there for long? Or can I ask the immigration officer to fire up an application from his side once I arrive at the airport?

Any advice on what should I do next? Should I keep my application documents with me when I travel to Canada? Are they going to ask for them at the airport? Is there anything I should keep in mind or do once I arrive at the airport?

I have a health card, and Social insurance number. Do these need any renewal or checkup?

If there are any documents and websites that could help me with my next steps I would be very grateful if you could tell me about them.


Thank you again!

This forum continues to be great as a resource for information throughout the process.
Again getting PRTD is no excuse for any future not meeting RO obligance. That means that if you try to leave any time during those 2 years and return you can be reported again. So yes you need to stay those 2 years at very least to be in a safe zone.
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,450
1,546
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
@Rob_TO
@canuck78
@canuck_in_uk
@rish888

GREAT NEWS EVERYONE!!!

Thank you very much for your support and answering my questions..

I've spent the time since my original post researching and writing up my case for my application, I made the application and received my Travel Document.

I'm very happy and excited, truly words cannot describe how I feel.
After doing a long period of research and reading the laws, I have decided to include some personal circumstances in order to make my case clearer.

I would like to ask now about renewing my PRC once I arrive in Canada, from my understanding of the laws, this travel document is my confirmation from IRCC about my residency status in Canada. Hence I will not need to stay in Canada for at least two years before applying for renewal. Is that correct?

Would I have to apply for the renewal of the card myself or would it be mailed to me once I arrive? (I suppose they only mail it once you arrive in Canada for the first time) but would I be given the same treatment since I have not been there for long? Or can I ask the immigration officer to fire up an application from his side once I arrive at the airport?

Any advice on what should I do next? Should I keep my application documents with me when I travel to Canada? Are they going to ask for them at the airport? Is there anything I should keep in mind or do once I arrive at the airport?

I have a health card, and Social insurance number. Do these need any renewal or checkup?

If there are any documents and websites that could help me with my next steps I would be very grateful if you could tell me about them.


Thank you again!

This forum continues to be great as a resource for information throughout the process.
CBSA will not help you in any way to process a new PR card. They only do that for your original PR card on the date you first became a PR. When you arrive, all CBSA will really care about is your passport + PR TD.

It will be up to you to apply for the PR Card renewal, after you're in Canada. The officer processing renewal should see your recent PR TD approval on H&C means, and renew the PR card accordingly.

I would refrain from leaving Canada, until you actually have your renewed PR card in hand. To attempt to leave any earlier would result in you needing to apply for another PR TD to return, and there was a case on here where someone had that 2nd PR TD denied (although he eventually won in appeal). As long as you have the valid PR card, traveling shouldn't be an issue afterwards.

Your SIN you may need to re-activate if it's gone into dormant status.

Your health card you'll also need to renew. Depending on your province you may have a 3 months waiting period until eligible for heathcare so make sure you have private travel medical insurance during this time.
 
Sep 4, 2018
6
0
@Rob_TO
@canuck78
@canuck_in_uk
@rish888

GREAT NEWS EVERYONE!!!

Thank you very much for your support and answering my questions..

I've spent the time since my original post researching and writing up my case for my application, I made the application and received my Travel Document.

I'm very happy and excited, truly words cannot describe how I feel.
After doing a long period of research and reading the laws, I have decided to include some personal circumstances in order to make my case clearer.

I would like to ask now about renewing my PRC once I arrive in Canada, from my understanding of the laws, this travel document is my confirmation from IRCC about my residency status in Canada. Hence I will not need to stay in Canada for at least two years before applying for renewal. Is that correct?

Would I have to apply for the renewal of the card myself or would it be mailed to me once I arrive? (I suppose they only mail it once you arrive in Canada for the first time) but would I be given the same treatment since I have not been there for long? Or can I ask the immigration officer to fire up an application from his side once I arrive at the airport?

Any advice on what should I do next? Should I keep my application documents with me when I travel to Canada? Are they going to ask for them at the airport? Is there anything I should keep in mind or do once I arrive at the airport?

I have a health card, and Social insurance number. Do these need any renewal or checkup?

If there are any documents and websites that could help me with my next steps I would be very grateful if you could tell me about them.


Thank you again!

This forum continues to be great as a resource for information throughout the process.