PR card recalled and seized?

[abff08f4813c]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ImmigrationCanada/comments/1kse9yh/crack_develpping_in_pr_card

Appears it was just a manufactures recall
Per CBSA on Reddit

More accurately, rather than CBSA posting, someone who posted there encountered a CBSA official (but unlike on this thread, we don't know where, just when) and that official gave more details to the individual.

Thanks for the update sometimes the answer is actually straightforward.

Indeed. It's good to hear that someone official supposedly agreed that the replacement should be free, at least... a comment there references a memo, which seems plausible enough as well - but I guess these memos are not public so there's still no official confirmation from the gov't. I'd prefer a more official confirmation myself, but lacking that - this does seem straightforward enough.

this is just my 0.00000000001 cent of opinion... i think there are two kinds of immigrants: those who really wish to live in Canada, and those who just want to use Canada. to each his own? definitely. but then, can't blame others if they start questioning the motives. imho, it is rather unfair to those who've been a citizen for a long time and are actually working and living in Canada as compared to those who just acquired citizenship and is just using the power of the Canadian passport.

again, just my opinion...

So I think that when the gov't provides a pathway for folks to immigrate and become citizens, there's a kind of implicit contract here. The folks come to the benefit of Canada, and in return they're allowed to get PR and eventually become citizens. By the time they've become citizens, they've fulfilled their end of the contract to Canada, and should be allowed to reap the benefits.

If one says that the time to become a citizen from PR and all that is too short - that's not an unreasonable position to take, but it just means that the contract should be updated as to give Canada a better deal (say for example 5 years as a PR to citizenship to increase the amount of taxes paid or whatnot). I myself have been here nearly a decade and have been paying taxes and living and working in Canada all this time and I still haven't managed to secure citizenship yet. How much more do you want from me?

 

[canuck78]

More accurately, rather than CBSA posting, someone who posted there encountered a CBSA official (but unlike on this thread, we don't know where, just when) and that official gave more details to the individual.


Indeed. It's good to hear that someone official supposedly agreed that the replacement should be free, at least... a comment there references a memo, which seems plausible enough as well - but I guess these memos are not public so there's still no official confirmation from the gov't. I'd prefer a more official confirmation myself, but lacking that - this does seem straightforward enough.


So I think that when the gov't provides a pathway for folks to immigrate and become citizens, there's a kind of implicit contract here. The folks come to the benefit of Canada, and in return they're allowed to get PR and eventually become citizens. By the time they've become citizens, they've fulfilled their end of the contract to Canada, and should be allowed to reap the benefits.

If one says that the time to become a citizen from PR and all that is too short - that's not an unreasonable position to take, but it just means that the contract should be updated as to give Canada a better deal (say for example 5 years as a PR to citizenship to increase the amount of taxes paid or whatnot). I myself have been here nearly a decade and have been paying taxes and living and working in Canada all this time and I still haven't managed to secure citizenship yet. How much more do you want from me?

Pretty rare to work full-time for 10 years and not qualify for citizenship. Assume some of the time was as a student. In reality it typically takes much longer than even 10 years to provide a net benefit to Canada unless you were a very high income earner.

 

[abff08f4813c]

Pretty rare to work full-time for 10 years and not qualify for citizenship.

Well that's my case, more or less. Granted that it'd likely have been shorter if not for covid.

Assume some of the time was as a student.

No, not a single day. Been a temporary foreign worker the whole time prior to PR since coming to Canada.

In reality it typically takes much longer than even 10 years to provide a net benefit to Canada unless you were a very high income earner.

You don't define a high income earner. For what it's worth I'm currently in the highest tax bracket, both for Ontario and federally.

In reality it typically takes much longer than even 10 years to provide a net benefit to Canada

Well... just for the sake of argument, how much longer then, for someone who's not a very high income earner? Say just a standard middle class income earner (i.e. earning just under six figures). Ballpark figure at least.

I did say earlier that it's not unreasonable to update the contract to give Canada a better deal, but at some point the contract may start to look unattractive, if too much is being asked for.

 

[Copingwithlife]

More accurately, rather than CBSA posting, someone who posted there encountered a CBSA official (but unlike on this thread, we don't know where, just when) and that official gave more details to the individual.


Indeed. It's good to hear that someone official supposedly agreed that the replacement should be free, at least... a comment there references a memo, which seems plausible enough as well - but I guess these memos are not public so there's still no official confirmation from the gov't. I'd prefer a more official confirmation myself, but lacking that - this does seem straightforward enough.


So I think that when the gov't provides a pathway for folks to immigrate and become citizens, there's a kind of implicit contract here. The folks come to the benefit of Canada, and in return they're allowed to get PR and eventually become citizens. By the time they've become citizens, they've fulfilled their end of the contract to Canada, and should be allowed to reap the benefits.

If one says that the time to become a citizen from PR and all that is too short - that's not an unreasonable position to take, but it just means that the contract should be updated as to give Canada a better deal (say for example 5 years as a PR to citizenship to increase the amount of taxes paid or whatnot). I myself have been here nearly a decade and have been paying taxes and living and working in Canada all this time and I still haven't managed to secure citizenship yet. How much more do you want from me?

Canada doesn’t owe anyone anything tbh that comes willingly either as a student or temporary worker

That statement though does have a hint of entitlement

 

[abff08f4813c]

That statement though does have a hint of entitlement

You quoted my entire post and don't single out a specific statement .. so I don't know which part you're referring to here. I'm happy to address it but you'd need to be more specific.

Canada doesn’t owe anyone anything tbh that comes willingly either as a student or temporary worker

I'm guessing you mean in the specific context of e.g. a pathway to PR or citizenship. This is true in terms of a guarantee or such, all that's being offered is a chance. (I'd argue that once PR is obtained, this changes somewhat, but obtaining PR is also a kind of change in contract, metaphorically speaking.) The point I'm making here is that there's still an implied contract here - while the end result isn't guaranteed PR, it's for things that are useful to obtain PR. An international student who has a qualifying programme and graduates is able to obtain a PGWP and get work experience in Canada. You get points for studying and working in Canada in Express Entry, so folks who do this should get those points.

That being said, the above assumes a clear process with a yes/no answer. What can happen in practice is that folks are held in limbo, not sure what's going on with their applications or why things are dragging out. If a process is advertised as normally taking X years and it takes almost three times as long for a person to go through it, it shouldn't be surprising when that person is less than totally satisfied.

Canada doesn’t owe anyone anything tbh that comes willingly either as a student or temporary worker

Worth nothing that in the more general sense, this is definitely and clearly wrong. International students offer a chance to boost Canada's economy and also spread Canada's culture and learnings to other countries, in return those students get to personally live in Canada and experience it first-hand. Temporary workers are given a similar chance to experience Canada first-hand but also to earn Canadian wages in Canada, and get Canadian healthcare. And both groups are entitled to the protection of Canada (the country) while they live here.

 

[siddix16]

Did anyone apply for replacement card and is getting affected by Canada post strike?

 

[canuck78]

Canada doesn’t owe anyone anything tbh that comes willingly either as a student or temporary worker

That statement though does have a hint of entitlement

Well that's my case, more or less. Granted that it'd likely have been shorter if not for covid.


No, not a single day. Been a temporary foreign worker the whole time prior to PR since coming to Canada.


You don't define a high income earner. For what it's worth I'm currently in the highest tax bracket, both for Ontario and federally.


Well... just for the sake of argument, how much longer then, for someone who's not a very high income earner? Say just a standard middle class income earner (i.e. earning just under six figures). Ballpark figure at least.

I did say earlier that it's not unreasonable to update the contract to give Canada a better deal, but at some point the contract may start to look unattractive, if too much is being asked for.

Think 5 year until citizenship with no extra credit for time as a temporary resident and requirement to remain in Canada while processing citizenship requirement is fair. Attempts to limit the revolving door of new citizens without being too onerous to discourage many applicants.

 

[canuck78]

You quoted my entire post and don't single out a specific statement .. so I don't know which part you're referring to here. I'm happy to address it but you'd need to be more specific.

I'm guessing you mean in the specific context of e.g. a pathway to PR or citizenship. This is true in terms of a guarantee or such, all that's being offered is a chance. (I'd argue that once PR is obtained, this changes somewhat, but obtaining PR is also a kind of change in contract, metaphorically speaking.) The point I'm making here is that there's still an implied contract here - while the end result isn't guaranteed PR, it's for things that are useful to obtain PR. An international student who has a qualifying programme and graduates is able to obtain a PGWP and get work experience in Canada. You get points for studying and working in Canada in Express Entry, so folks who do this should get those points.

That being said, the above assumes a clear process with a yes/no answer. What can happen in practice is that folks are held in limbo, not sure what's going on with their applications or why things are dragging out. If a process is advertised as normally taking X years and it takes almost three times as long for a person to go through it, it shouldn't be surprising when that person is less than totally satisfied.


Worth nothing that in the more general sense, this is definitely and clearly wrong. International students offer a chance to boost Canada's economy and also spread Canada's culture and learnings to other countries, in return those students get to personally live in Canada and experience it first-hand. Temporary workers are given a similar chance to experience Canada first-hand but also to earn Canadian wages in Canada, and get Canadian healthcare. And both groups are entitled to the protection of Canada (the country) while they live here.

Think we can both agree that Canada and many international students lost sight of the actual goal of immigration to Canada. Canada ended up with many low quality applicants who don’t necessarily have a desire to integrate or add benefit to the Canadian economy and the government allowed many Canadian citizens to financially benefit from exploiting this group of newcomers. Sadly many who exploited and financially benefited from newcomers were members of similar communities. Canada has done a poor job encouraging or requiring newcomers to spread across the country and resettle into all communities. Sadly many newcomers would benefit from moving to communities with less newcomers or in a diverse community but most insist on settling in a few select locations. I have encouraged many newcomers to apply for jobs across Canada and settle where they find the best career opportunities instead of insisting on moving to a specific location but most do not take my advice.

 

[abff08f4813c]

Think 5 year until citizenship with no extra credit for time as a temporary resident
requirement is fair.

If not for my personal experience, I'd be inclined to agree with this completely. As it is, I'd be happy to agree with it with one modification - either extra credit should be given for time spent after being approved in principle (e.g. when passport request is made) or else - with the sole exception of security related reasons - the processing time for getting PR should be guarranted to a reasonable value (e.g. 2 years max).

Think
requirement to remain in Canada while processing citizenship requirement is fair.

I haven't personally experienced this (at least, not yet) but same deal here - some folks have not had their applications processed for over ten years, how can you ask someone to stay in one country without exception for that long? But if it's citizenship with two years processing max (aside from security concerns), and regular H&C is allowed in granting an exception to the stay requirement (so I can visit my dying mother who only got sick after I applied for citizenship) then we're good.


Even in the case where security concerns make it take 10+ years, I think automatically granting a wavier of the stay requirement after the expected reasonable period (call it two years) solves any potential unfairness. Person has to maintain RO anyways until the grant is given, which keeps the applicants honest (or at least tied to contributing to Canada) even after processing times start to get unreasonable...

Attempts to limit the revolving door of new citizens without being too onerous to discourage many applicants.

Yep, seems fair enough.

Think we can both agree that Canada and many international students lost sight of the actual goal of immigration to Canada.

You think correctly. Agreed.

Canada ended up with many low quality applicants who don’t necessarily have a desire to integrate or add benefit to the Canadian economy

Not sure who you are referring to. Folks who applied for PR directly from overseas without being in Canada?

International students automatically contribute a benefit to the economy because they spend huge sums for their education and living. Meanwhile, temporary foreign workers actually work in Canada, so they are actively participating in the economy. If they're highly skilled and highly paid, then this is a benefit.

Of course not every international student is a good fit but being an international student can open a pathway to PR. It seems almost as if Canada should have some kind of culture fit and benefits (to Canada) test for folks considering PR, particularly prospective international students. So that they know in advance if they're not a good fit that they may be better off looking elsewhere, instead of getting lurked in by false promises.

and the government allowed many Canadian citizens to financially benefit from exploiting this group of newcomers. Sadly many who exploited and financially benefited from newcomers were members of similar communities.

Agreed. This is unfortunately and unfair. The worst part is that international students - who had other choices - may have well decided to put up with this specifically in return for the promise of PR, only to later be disappointed when PR proved to be out of reach.

Canada has done a poor job encouraging or requiring newcomers to spread across the country and resettle into all communities. Sadly many newcomers would benefit from moving to communities with less newcomers or in a diverse community but most insist on settling in a few select locations. I have encouraged many newcomers to apply for jobs across Canada and settle where they find the best career opportunities instead of insisting on moving to a specific location but most do not take my advice.

So I have a somewhat different perspective on this. I've seen that the most diverse locations seem to be the largest metropolises. Likewise, these larger places have a larger economy, and thus have more opportunity. Hence why everyone seems to wind up going to Toronto or Vancouver.

You're right that Canada could be doing a better job to encourage folks to settle in other places. Promoting remote work when applicable, for example, to allow folks to take that Toronto gig but do the work while living in Saskatoon. And when these folks then spread out, that makes the smaller cities more diverse too.

Of course some people have family or friends in Canada and want to move to be near them, so we're not going to get everyone. But there's still a lot of room to do this better here..

 

[canuck78]

If not for my personal experience, I'd be inclined to agree with this completely. As it is, I'd be happy to agree with it with one modification - either extra credit should be given for time spent after being approved in principle (e.g. when passport request is made) or else - with the sole exception of security related reasons - the processing time for getting PR should be guarranted to a reasonable value (e.g. 2 years max).


I haven't personally experienced this (at least, not yet) but same deal here - some folks have not had their applications processed for over ten years, how can you ask someone to stay in one country without exception for that long? But if it's citizenship with two years processing max (aside from security concerns), and regular H&C is allowed in granting an exception to the stay requirement (so I can visit my dying mother who only got sick after I applied for citizenship) then we're good.


Even in the case where security concerns make it take 10+ years, I think automatically granting a wavier of the stay requirement after the expected reasonable period (call it two years) solves any potential unfairness. Person has to maintain RO anyways until the grant is given, which keeps the applicants honest (or at least tied to contributing to Canada) even after processing times start to get unreasonable...


Yep, seems fair enough.


You think correctly. Agreed.


Not sure who you are referring to. Folks who applied for PR directly from overseas without being in Canada?

International students automatically contribute a benefit to the economy because they spend huge sums for their education and living. Meanwhile, temporary foreign workers actually work in Canada, so they are actively participating in the economy. If they're highly skilled and highly paid, then this is a benefit.

Of course not every international student is a good fit but being an international student can open a pathway to PR. It seems almost as if Canada should have some kind of culture fit and benefits (to Canada) test for folks considering PR, particularly prospective international students. So that they know in advance if they're not a good fit that they may be better off looking elsewhere, instead of getting lurked in by false promises.


Agreed. This is unfortunately and unfair. The worst part is that international students - who had other choices - may have well decided to put up with this specifically in return for the promise of PR, only to later be disappointed when PR proved to be out of reach.


So I have a somewhat different perspective on this. I've seen that the most diverse locations seem to be the largest metropolises. Likewise, these larger places have a larger economy, and thus have more opportunity. Hence why everyone seems to wind up going to Toronto or Vancouver.

You're right that Canada could be doing a better job to encourage folks to settle in other places. Promoting remote work when applicable, for example, to allow folks to take that Toronto gig but do the work while living in Saskatoon. And when these folks then spread out, that makes the smaller cities more diverse too.

Of course some people have family or friends in Canada and want to move to be near them, so we're not going to get everyone. But there's still a lot of room to do this better here..

Most citizenship applications are processed within a year these days. If not a year the majority are finished within a 2 year period. The intent to remain clause was part of citizenship applications until it was changed by the Trudeau government. Remaining in Canada living your normal life while your citizenship application is being processed without proof that you already have plans to relocate was previously required. Most Canadians would be outraged that we award citizenship to PRs who have already left Canada with no plans of returning but most are unaware of the process. While living a normal life in Canada working, going to school, etc. things like spending time with a sick family member abroad under something like family leave would always possible.

When I refer to low quality candidates I was referring to newcomers (not through humanitarian pathways) who don’t have strong language skills, have attended degree mills and were not dedicated to their studies (at home or in Canada), have often committed immigration fraud, are abusing things like social programs in Canada, committing crime, etc. IRCC stopped prioritizing high quality candidates (as had previously been the case) and started prioritizing increased number of new arrivals to Canada.

Although international students and temporary workers provide benefit to the economy things like higher tuition costs only really benefit most Canadians if international students attend a reputable university or college. If attending a schools that cater to primarily international students it doesn’t benefit Canadians and domestic students in the same way. There is a smaller number of people who benefit from international students attending schools that primarily cater to international students like degree mills. These include the owners of the schools, immigration consultants and some lawyer who are typically paid a referral fee and increased business, typically local politicians, etc. Temporary workers who are high skilled and have high paid jobs have always benefited Canada. Those working for low wages and in jobs that are difficult to fill by Canadian workers also provide benefit to the Canadian economy. In general lower wage workers and those doing lower skilled jobs provide significant benefit to Canada but also have created some issues that have only gotten worse at the cost of living has increased and as the volume of temporary residents and new PRs have increased. Has placed more demand on things like social services/charities, has increased incidences of certain social issues, can suppress wages, can create obstacles for younger Canadians looking to secure their first jobs, can create pressure on lower cost housing, can sadly allow employers to get away with providing poor working conditions, etc. The benefit Canada receives from lower wage and lower skilled workers is a bit more complex than it used to be due to the volume of people. Still a net benefit for sure but hopefully Canada will get back to a place where the drawbacks decrease and the benefits increase and go back to more like what it used to be which should also benefit the lower wage worker.

In terms of newcomers spreading out across Canada it doesn’t mean people can’t move to larger cities as well. For example in the GTA newcomers should spread out across the GTA not just focus on certain areas within the GTA. There are many examples of different areas and communities but Brampton is the most common example people use. Many South East Asians insist on living in Brampton which has lead to many problems. I always encourage newcomers from South East Asia to move to other regions of the GTA that typically offer better transportation options, often better housing options for the price, more opportunities to interact with a diverse population, etc. People can always visit Brampton on the weekend or on their day off. There is no need for most to actually live in Brampton unless you’re employed in the area.

 

[abff08f4813c]

Most citizenship applications are processed within a year these days. If not a year the majority are finished within a 2 year period.

Key word being most. Having personally experienced being that minority that exceeds that two year window (for PR, not citizenship), I think you can understand my sympathy for others who - through no fault of their own - end up stuck in a process that takes unreasonably long while having to deal with changing personal circumstances also beyond their control.

Thus I respectively disagree.

Most Canadians would be outraged that we award citizenship to PRs who have already left Canada with no plans of returning but most are unaware of the process.

Hmm. This is the first that I've heard about this (that most Canadians would disagree with that). I'm not disagreeing, just curious as to the source of information on this (i.e. how did you know this / where did you hear this from).

While living a normal life in Canada working, going to school, etc. things like spending time with a sick family member abroad under something like family leave would always possible.

Cool, sounds like we're in agreement here.

When I refer to low quality candidates I was referring to newcomers (not through humanitarian pathways) who don’t have strong language skills, have attended degree mills and were not dedicated to their studies (at home or in Canada), have often committed immigration fraud, are abusing things like social programs in Canada, committing crime, etc.

Well, this seems to cover a large and disparate set of people. I don't think anyone seriously disagrees with the idea that major criminals (where a "minor" crime is something like a traffic ticket) shouldn't be allowed to immigrate, and the same with dependency on social programs. Hence why immigration is supposed to come with background checks and proof of sufficient funds as a requirement. (Perhaps they got in anyways because they also committed immigration fraud and weren't caught in time? But of course no one one seriously disagrees etc etc - so perhaps we just need better enforcement?)

Being dedicates to one's studies - definitely something we should require in principle for international students, but in practice how do we know this? Asking for letters of reference and checking the person's individual educational history? If a person has a strong record of being a solid student in the past, how do we know that person will continue to stay dedicated?

Strong language skills seems the easiest one here. Just require a certain standard of English (or French) to study and another, higher one to apply for (skilled) PR. And if the existing levels are getting low language skilled folks in, just raise the respective required level higher.

IRCC stopped prioritizing high quality candidates (as had previously been the case) and started prioritizing increased number of new arrivals to Canada.

Again, just curious about source. Or is this more of a gut feeling based on what you've personally seen over time? But I do recall a similar impression around the time of covid (and my guess was that this was because of covid). Anyways, agreed - if Canada was letting not-as-high quality candidates in as a response to covid, the time for that is now past.

Although international students and temporary workers provide benefit to the economy things like higher tuition costs only really benefit most Canadians if international students attend a reputable university or college. If attending a schools that cater to primarily international students it doesn’t benefit Canadians and domestic students in the same way.

Sounds reasonable enough.

There is a smaller number of people who benefit from international students attending schools that primarily cater to international students like degree mills.

Yeah, there's not a compelling reason to allow degree mills, period. Get rid of them and the problem is solved. (Or at least, don't designate degree mills as designated learning institutions for international students.)

Temporary workers who are high skilled and have high paid jobs have always benefited Canada. Those working for low wages and in jobs that are difficult to fill by Canadian workers also provide benefit to the Canadian economy. In general lower wage workers and those doing lower skilled jobs provide significant benefit to Canada but also have created some issues that have only gotten worse at the cost of living has increased and as the volume of temporary residents and new PRs have increased. Has placed more demand on things like social services/charities, has increased incidences of certain social issues, can suppress wages, can create obstacles for younger Canadians looking to secure their first jobs, can create pressure on lower cost housing, can sadly allow employers to get away with providing poor working conditions, etc. The benefit Canada receives from lower wage and lower skilled workers is a bit more complex than it used to be due to the volume of people. Still a net benefit for sure but hopefully Canada will get back to a place where the drawbacks decrease and the benefits increase and go back to more like what it used to be which should also benefit the lower wage worker.

You make a nuanced but good point here. Agreed - definitely the equation is more complex for lower skilled temporary workers, and I agree with the sentiment for reducing the drawbacks for everyone, even if I'm not entirely sure how to get there. (Pursing highly qualified applicants sounds like a reasonable start, but would such an applicant inherently fare better if paid lower wages? What does "highly qualified" even mean in this context?)

In terms of newcomers spreading out across Canada it doesn’t mean people can’t move to larger cities as well. For example in the GTA newcomers should spread out across the GTA not just focus on certain areas within the GTA. There are many examples of different areas and communities but Brampton is the most common example people use.

This went in a different direction than I was thinking. I was expecting some criticism of my choice to live in downtown Toronto (in the past). But know that I understand what you mean, I agree - I can see the types of problems that would arise when a smaller area is suddenly flooded by a huge influx of newcomers concentrated in one area...

Many South East Asians insist on living in Brampton which has lead to many problems. I always encourage newcomers from South East Asia to move to other regions of the GTA that typically offer better transportation options, often better housing options for the price, more opportunities to interact with a diverse population, etc. People can always visit Brampton on the weekend or on their day off. There is no need for most to actually live in Brampton unless you’re employed in the area.

I've actually never been to Brampton and don't know anything about it. Now I'm wondering why SEAs wish to live there, especially if they don't work there. Is it just that Brampton has the largest ethnic enclave?