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Post 10/11 CIC/IRCC - What did not change/remained the same?

HamiltonApplicant

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If 4/6 to 3/5 logic is applied, now that 183 in four or more calendar year requirement gone, CIC should increase it to past five years in my opinion!

Otherwise, personally, I feel police certificate rule is rather ineffective. People who should be thoroughly screened, get away with some sob story, Whereas law-abiding immigrants get bogged down.

One the most well assimilating and enterprising PRs are those who take Far East/South East -> Middle -> Canada route, they are overwhelmingly screened and forced to get police certificates for no particular reason.....
 

dpenabill

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I don't see any reason for CIC to keep past 4 years for police clearance when the minimum will be 3 years to qualify. It made sense under 4/6 rule since 4 years is the minimum.
Again, the fact that IRCC requests a police certificate based on extent of time spent in another country during the preceding FOUR years has NOTHING to do with the 4/6 rule or a 3/5 rule.

The four year time period is based on Section 22(3)(a) in the Citizenship Act, which states:

"Despite anything in this Act, a person shall not be granted citizenship . . . if the person has been convicted of an offence outside Canada that, if committed in Canada, would constitute an indictable offence under any Act of Parliament, regardless of whether the person was pardoned or otherwise granted amnesty for the offence, and the conviction occurred during . . . the four-year period immediately before the date of the person’s application" (emphasis added)

see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-6.html#docCont

Bill C-6 does NOT amend this provision in the Citizenship Act.

My sense is some enjoy deliberately attempting to cause confusion about this. But this is not complicated. Not obscure. The relevant time period for prohibitions continues to be FOUR years.

Nonetheless, IRCC has wide discretion in deciding what criteria to employ in determining who will need to include a police certificate, and since that is an administrative decision it is something which can be changed any time IRCC chooses to change it. Not likely the criteria for who needs to include a police certificate will change (since the applicable prohibitions time period does not change), but it can.
 

Bs65

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I don't see any reason for CIC to keep past 4 years for police clearance when the minimum will be 3 years to qualify. It made sense under 4/6 rule since 4 years is the minimum.

As mentioned by others, just wait next week to confirm.
Well I guess under your logic then those claiming 2 years post PR then 2 years prior to PR at half a day for each day would get a year out of jail free card maybe given those applicants still need 4 years if they want to claim the full pre PR period ?
 
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Well I guess under your logic then those claiming 2 years post PR then 2 years prior to PR at half a day for each day would get a year out of jail free card maybe given those applicants still need 4 years if they want to claim the full pre PR period ?
And those who claims 5 years post PR get a one year get of jail free card because police clearance only covered 4 out of 5 years. What's your point?

My point is the 4 year police record made sense under 3/4 rule (max requirement) and 4/6 rule (min requirement). Why change 4 year under 4/6 when it covered, at least, the minimum. There is some form of relationship of 4 years to 3/4 and 4/6. Now with 3/5, 4 years is neither min or max. Actually it makes more sense to change it to 5 years to cover the max period.
 
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HamiltonApplicant

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  • Language requirements have not changed for 18-54 age range
  • Even if language certificates are provided, fumbling too much during the interview may lead to delays if not denial!
 
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dpenabill

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My point is the 4 year police record made sense under 3/4 rule (max requirement) and 4/6 rule (min requirement). Why change 4 year under 4/6 when it covered, at least, the minimum. There is some form of relationship of 4 years to 3/4 and 4/6. Now with 3/5, 4 years is neither min or max. Actually it makes more sense to change it to 5 years to cover the max period.
The prohibitions period is independent of the residency or presence qualifying period. Period.

In particular: "My point is the 4 year police record made sense under 3/4 rule (max requirement) . . . "

Except there was no such thing. This is related to NOTHING. This has nothing to do with any Canadian citizenship requirement or application at any time. You just make this stuff up.

There was NO police record or police certificate requirement under the pre-Bill C-24 citizenship qualification rule. No such requirement under the old 3/4 residency rules.

The reason why is simple, there was no prohibition for foreign convictions prior to Bill C-24 changes to the Citizenship Act. In contrast, Section 22(3) of the Citizenship Act was ADDED as part of Bill C-24. This provision came into force May, 2015, and the item in the application regarding police certificates was not added to the application until the June 2015 version. Police certificate requirements for citizenship applicants did NOT exist prior to that.

Bottom-line, there was no prohibition for criminal convictions outside Canada, for any period of time, until Section 22(3) of the Citizenship Act was ADDED as part of Bill C-24, and correspondingly there were NO requirements for submitting a police certificate under the 3/4 residency requirements.

In the meantime, there is no get out of jail free card for anyone who has a conviction within the preceding four years. Even if they spent less than 183 days total in the country where they were convicted of an offence in the preceding four years. In contrast to lots of unfounded, hyperbolic fear-mongering about the government revoking someone's citizenship for misrepresentation, failing to disclose a prohibition is indeed actually one of those things which, if discovered, the Canadian government has prosecuted for misrepresentation, and it is highly likely will continue to prosecute for misrepresentation.

And the thing is, records of these things tend to be well-kept by most countries in the world (not all, but most), and there are all sorts of ways in which the Canadian government can be made aware of an individual's foreign record. This is a real reason for which Canada can and will revoke citizenship. (Only residency fraud, and concealment of serious crimes like war crimes before becoming a PR in Canada, are pursued more zealously than misrepresentations related to the prohibitions.)

But sure, except for the most obvious scenarios (conviction in country where one spent six months consecutively, conviction in the U.S.), applicants willing to make misrepresentations about prohibitions, not disclosing charges or convictions in foreign countries, it is very easy to skirt the police certificate requirements by checking "no" to the 183 days total in a particular country during the preceding four years and fudging information about the destination country in the presence calculation, and the odds are very high that the processing agent going through the presence calculation and the applicant's passport stamps will not notice. Easy to slide by -- slide by the police certificate requirement that is. But also easy to get caught, not for the misrepresentation in checking "no" about 183 or more days in another country (and correspondingly dodging including a police certificate), but easy to get caught on the misrepresentation about no prohibitions, no convictions in another country. Either while the application is in process (since at the least the CSIS clearance checks INTERPOL records among other resources) or sometime in the future, anytime in the future . . . remembering, again, this is one of those kinds of misrepresentation which Canada will actually prosecute.

As for those whose objective is to avoid the inconvenience of submitting a police certificate (rather than to conceal a foreign conviction), hard to be any more stupid than to make misrepresentations (which is itself criminal, which can lead to being denied citizenship and a five year ban on applying for citizenship, or which forever could lead to revocation of citizenship) just to avoid the inconvenience of obtaining a police certificate.

In the meantime, there are NO changes pending for Section 22(3) of the Citizenship Act, none tabled, none being proposed or even discussed. The applicable prohibitions period of time, for foreign convictions, is four years and there is no prospect that will be changing in the near future.

In this regard, IRCC cannot change this period of time. It is prescribed by statute. Only Parliament, with the approval of the Senate and Royal Assent, can change this, and that would require going through the whole legislative process for revising statutory provisions. Any such changes are simply NOT on the horizon.
 

dpenabill

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Even if language certificates are provided, fumbling too much during the interview may lead to delays if not denial!
This is indeed an important reminder.

Many seem to have the impression that the proof of language ability that must be submitted with the application suffices to meet the language requirement. But you are right to highlight this, that verification of language ability is part of the interview.
 

ibry

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The prohibitions period is independent of the residency or presence qualifying period. Period.

In particular: "My point is the 4 year police record made sense under 3/4 rule (max requirement) . . . "

Except there was no such thing. This is related to NOTHING. This has nothing to do with any Canadian citizenship requirement or application at any time. You just make this stuff up.

There was NO police record or police certificate requirement under the pre-Bill C-24 citizenship qualification rule. No such requirement under the old 3/4 residency rules.

The reason why is simple, there was no prohibition for foreign convictions prior to Bill C-24 changes to the Citizenship Act. In contrast, Section 22(3) of the Citizenship Act was ADDED as part of Bill C-24. This provision came into force May, 2015, and the item in the application regarding police certificates was not added to the application until the June 2015 version. Police certificate requirements for citizenship applicants did NOT exist prior to that.

Bottom-line, there was no prohibition for criminal convictions outside Canada, for any period of time, until Section 22(3) of the Citizenship Act was ADDED as part of Bill C-24, and correspondingly there were NO requirements for submitting a police certificate under the 3/4 residency requirements.

In the meantime, there is no get out of jail free card for anyone who has a conviction within the preceding four years. Even if they spent less than 183 days total in the country where they were convicted of an offence in the preceding four years. In contrast to lots of unfounded, hyperbolic fear-mongering about the government revoking someone's citizenship for misrepresentation, failing to disclose a prohibition is indeed actually one of those things which, if discovered, the Canadian government has prosecuted for misrepresentation, and it is highly likely will continue to prosecute for misrepresentation.

And the thing is, records of these things tend to be well-kept by most countries in the world (not all, but most), and there are all sorts of ways in which the Canadian government can be made aware of an individual's foreign record. This is a real reason for which Canada can and will revoke citizenship. (Only residency fraud, and concealment of serious crimes like war crimes before becoming a PR in Canada, are pursued more zealously than misrepresentations related to the prohibitions.)

But sure, except for the most obvious scenarios (conviction in country where one spent six months consecutively, conviction in the U.S.), applicants willing to make misrepresentations about prohibitions, not disclosing charges or convictions in foreign countries, it is very easy to skirt the police certificate requirements by checking "no" to the 183 days total in a particular country during the preceding four years and fudging information about the destination country in the presence calculation, and the odds are very high that the processing agent going through the presence calculation and the applicant's passport stamps will not notice. Easy to slide by -- slide by the police certificate requirement that is. But also easy to get caught, not for the misrepresentation in checking "no" about 183 or more days in another country (and correspondingly dodging including a police certificate), but easy to get caught on the misrepresentation about no prohibitions, no convictions in another country. Either while the application is in process (since at the least the CSIS clearance checks INTERPOL records among other resources) or sometime in the future, anytime in the future . . . remembering, again, this is one of those kinds of misrepresentation which Canada will actually prosecute.

As for those whose objective is to avoid the inconvenience of submitting a police certificate (rather than to conceal a foreign conviction), hard to be any more stupid than to make misrepresentations (which is itself criminal, which can lead to being denied citizenship and a five year ban on applying for citizenship, or which forever could lead to revocation of citizenship) just to avoid the inconvenience of obtaining a police certificate.

In the meantime, there are NO changes pending for Section 22(3) of the Citizenship Act, none tabled, none being proposed or even discussed. The applicable prohibitions period of time, for foreign convictions, is four years and there is no prospect that will be changing in the near future.

In this regard, IRCC cannot change this period of time. It is prescribed by statute. Only Parliament, with the approval of the Senate and Royal Assent, can change this, and that would require going through the whole legislative process for revising statutory provisions. Any such changes are simply NOT on the horizon.
That is my question was ther a police report needed during the 3/4. I think it will be scrapped because they needed it under the 4/6 rule to let them know if you were really there,

I was in school abraod 2012/2013 and didnt relocate till 2014. So i am only above 183 days 2015-2017 which is roughly past 3 years that means if this rule applies in the new ill need a police report and cant apply on Oct 11
 

dpenabill

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That is my question was ther a police report needed during the 3/4. I think it will be scrapped because they needed it under the 4/6 rule to let them know if you were really there,

I was in school abraod 2012/2013 and didnt relocate till 2014. So i am only above 183 days 2015-2017 which is roughly past 3 years that means if this rule applies in the new ill need a police report and cant apply on Oct 11
There was NO police certificate requirement under the old 3/4 rules. Not sure how I can make this any more clear than that. Anyone who has a copy of an application used prior to June 2015 can verify this by simply looking at the application. But again, the reason why there was no police certificate requirement then has NOTHING to do with the 3/4 rule itself. There was no prohibition then for foreign convictions.

Someone reported above that a call centre representative said the police certificate requirement will soon change to require the certificate if the applicant was present in another country a total of 183 days in the three years prior to the application. I very seriously doubt this is true. As I have documented above, there is no reason for any such change. The prohibtions period of time is NOT changing. It is four years. It will continue to be four years unless and until new law is tabled and adopted in Parliament, noting however there is NO indication this is going to happen.

It is possible that IRCC will change what is currently (in the current version of the application) item 6.M. This item currently asks: "In the past four (4) years, were you present in a country, other than Canada, for a total of 183 days?"

The applicant must check "no" or "yes" and if "yes" is checked, then include a police certificate from that country, OR give an explanation why the applicant cannot obtain such a certificate.

For how to obtain a police certificate, see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/security/index.asp and follow the links.

This could change BUT the odds are very, very high this item (albeit it will probably be renumbered in the new application form) will remain the same. No changes are likely.

So, if following the current instructions you need to submit a police certificate, it is almost certain you will need to submit a police certificate after the change to the 3/5 rule comes into force.

Or give an explanation why you cannot provide a police certificate.

By the way, anyone with any sense will not apply on October 11. At the very least, no one should attempt to apply under the new rules until October 12 at the very soonest. A little common sense can go a long way.

Example: applicant applies on October 19, 2017:

If this applicant spent a total of 183 or more days in a country other than Canada between October 19, 2013 and October 18, 2017, the applicant needs to check "yes" to the police certificate item (whatever it is numbered in the new form) and EITHER include a police certificate or state an explanation for why not.

Noting, again, this could change but that is NOT likely.
 

Whocares

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Gonna pay 250 dollars to get that police certificate and not even sure if they are gonna send it. Thank you dpenabill
 

HamiltonApplicant

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@ibry
I followed IRCC tweets sporadically, they have not indicated in any form or fashion that police certificate requirements might change, as yet!
If you are affected in anyway, provide good reason as to why you will not be able submit the PC(s). Example:
  • You did not know you would have become eligible on the 11th Oct till the 4th of Oct! Not enough time to get one...
 
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ibry

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There was NO police certificate requirement under the old 3/4 rules. Not sure how I can make this any more clear than that. Anyone who has a copy of an application used prior to June 2015 can verify this by simply looking at the application. But again, the reason why there was no police certificate requirement then has NOTHING to do with the 3/4 rule itself. There was no prohibition then for foreign convictions.

Someone reported above that a call centre representative said the police certificate requirement will soon change to require the certificate if the applicant was present in another country a total of 183 days in the three years prior to the application. I very seriously doubt this is true. As I have documented above, there is no reason for any such change. The prohibtions period of time is NOT changing. It is four years. It will continue to be four years unless and until new law is tabled and adopted in Parliament, noting however there is NO indication this is going to happen.

It is possible that IRCC will change what is currently (in the current version of the application) item 6.M. This item currently asks: "In the past four (4) years, were you present in a country, other than Canada, for a total of 183 days?"

The applicant must check "no" or "yes" and if "yes" is checked, then include a police certificate from that country, OR give an explanation why the applicant cannot obtain such a certificate.

For how to obtain a police certificate, see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/security/index.asp and follow the links.

This could change BUT the odds are very, very high this item (albeit it will probably be renumbered in the new application form) will remain the same. No changes are likely.

So, if following the current instructions you need to submit a police certificate, it is almost certain you will need to submit a police certificate after the change to the 3/5 rule comes into force.

Or give an explanation why you cannot provide a police certificate.

By the way, anyone with any sense will not apply on October 11. At the very least, no one should attempt to apply under the new rules until October 12 at the very soonest. A little common sense can go a long way.

Example: applicant applies on October 19, 2017:

If this applicant spent a total of 183 or more days in a country other than Canada between October 19, 2013 and October 18, 2017, the applicant needs to check "yes" to the police certificate item (whatever it is numbered in the new form) and EITHER include a police certificate or state an explanation for why not.

Noting, again, this could change but that is NOT likely.
I was not planning to submit on the 11th itself but i want all my documents complete by then because like it or not of 100 people submit its likely about 60 will have errors because the new instruction guide will contain things not noted in the first place .

Even if i have a valid reason why i dont have a police certificate ill still love to include it. I dont like them requesting more information this i have always avoided by sending everything required or likely to be required. But thanks we just have to wait till Teusday to know
 

ibry

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@ibry
I followed IRCC tweets sporadically, they have not indicated in any form or fashion that police certificate requirements might change, as yet!
If you are affected in anyway, provide good reason as to why you will not be able submit the PC(s). Example:
  • You did not know you would have become eligible on the 11th Oct till the 4th of Oct! Not enough time to get one...
Thanks you.
 

aska-phd

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Please advise me if I need a police certificate :

In the last five years back from Oct. 11, 2017 to Oct. 11, 2012, my residency in Canada was as follows

entered July 1, 2012, left July 1, 2013 (stayed in another country from July 1,2013 till Jan. 10,2014).
entered again CANADA Jan. 10, 2014, STAYED UNTIL NOW Oct. 11, 2017 (Left a few days in different times during this period only
for conferences of a total of 1 month).
I became PR in May 6, 2015.

If we count back 4 years immediately from the date of application Oct. 11, 2017, it back to Oct. 11, 2013,
Do I need a police certificate for such long stay in the another country from July 1,2013 - Jan. 10, 2014?