Minor applying with Parent

[Canadiancoming]

Hi Folks. I am applying for citizenship very soon and I want to include my son application as well. He is 10yrs old and living in Canada right now.

The question is, my son will be only 1.5 yrs here in Canada on the time of application. As per Cic website, minor shall fullfil PR requirement on the time of application with his parent. Does that mean my son can not be eligible to apply with me as he did not spent in Canada 2 out 5yrs to maintain his permanent resident?

Thanks guys in advance for helping me answering that critical question

 

[sns204]

I believe that's correct. If you're not in a hurry to get citizenship, waiting until he's eligible may be best? Others can chime in about whether it's easier to combine his application with yours or to do his at a later date on his own.

 

[btbt]

Children (who apply at the same time as a parent) do not need to meet the physical presence requirement.

From the page describing the eligibility requirements:

Time you have lived in Canada
(...)
These requirements don’t apply to children under 18 where a parent or guardian has applied on their behalf for citizenship using the subsection 5(2) application form.​

There is no physical presence calculator required with their application form (looking at the checklist), and the guide (for minors who apply at the same time as a parent) does not mention residence at all.

The requirements described in the guide are:

Minor children must:

• be under 18 years of age at the time of the application;
• be a permanent resident of Canada;
• have at least one parent (includes legally adoptive parent) who is a Canadian citizen or who will become a citizen at the same time as the child (applying together as a family). Note: legally adopted is not the same as having custody, guardianship or being the step-parent of a child.

Minor children must not:

• be subject to any prohibition under the Citizenship Act (see section 11 of the application form CIT 0003); and/or
• have any unfulfilled conditions relating to their permanent resident status; and/or
• be under a removal order (asked by Canadian officials to leave Canada).

So they both can apply at the same time, once @Canadiancoming is eligible (as the son already meets the above mentioned requirements).

 

[Canadiancoming]

Children (who apply at the same time as a parent) do not need to meet the physical presence requirement.

From the page describing the eligibility requirements:

Time you have lived in Canada
(...)
These requirements don’t apply to children under 18 where a parent or guardian has applied on their behalf for citizenship using the subsection 5(2) application form.​

There is no physical presence calculator required with their application form (looking at the checklist), and the guide (for minors who apply at the same time as a parent) does not mention residence at all.

The requirements described in the guide are:

Minor children must:

• be under 18 years of age at the time of the application;
• be a permanent resident of Canada;
• have at least one parent (includes legally adoptive parent) who is a Canadian citizen or who will become a citizen at the same time as the child (applying together as a family). Note: legally adopted is not the same as having custody, guardianship or being the step-parent of a child.

Minor children must not:

• be subject to any prohibition under the Citizenship Act (see section 11 of the application form CIT 0003); and/or
• have any unfulfilled conditions relating to their permanent resident status; and/or
• be under a removal order (asked by Canadian officials to leave Canada).

So they both can apply at the same time, once @Canadiancoming is eligible (as the son already meets the above mentioned requirements).

You are right, but it stated;
Minor children must not:

• have any unfulfilled conditions relating to their permanent resident status;

That's what brought the confusion. So if the minor didn't complete 2 out 5 yrs, then that's mean he didn't fullfil conditions relating to PR

 

[sns204]

Physical presence is not the same as PR obligations. I read it to mean that they must still meet the 2 years out of 5.

 

[btbt]

You are right, but it stated;
Minor children must not:

• have any unfulfilled conditions relating to their permanent resident status;

That's what brought the confusion. So if the minor didn't complete 2 out 5 yrs, then that's mean he didn't fullfil conditions relating to PR

That is not what they mean by "conditions". Conditions are specific obligations, that apply only to some permanent residents. There used to be one for married couples, who had to live together for two years, but that has been abolished. There is one for entrepreneurs, who must establish a business of a certain size. I don't know if there is any condition that could apply to your son, but if there is it would have been listed on his Confirmation of Permanent Residence.

For the residency requirement to maintain his PR status the following rules apply:

If you have been a permanent resident for five (5) years or more

• you must have been physically present in Canada for a minimum of 730 days within the past five (5) years.

If you have been a permanent resident for less than five (5) years

• you must show that you will be able to meet the minimum of 730 days of physical presence in Canada within five (5) years of the date you became a permanent resident.

so your son meets the residency obligation if they became a PR less than 4.5 years ago (because in 0.5 year they will have been in Canada for 2 out of 5 years).

 

[canuck_in_uk]

You are right, but it stated;
Minor children must not:

• have any unfulfilled conditions relating to their permanent resident status;

That's what brought the confusion. So if the minor didn't complete 2 out 5 yrs, then that's mean he didn't fullfil conditions relating to PR

Minor children do not need to meet the Residency Obligation to be included in their parent's citizenship app. You can apply and include your child.

 

[sns204]

I’ll happily stand corrected.

So does this mean that a child can become a citizen without ever having set foot in Canada?

 

[sns204]

I guess they have to land as a PR once.

 

[btbt]

Minor children do not need to meet the Residency Obligation to be included in their parent's citizenship app. You can apply and include your child.

If you are talking about the "residency obligation" (something necessary to maintain PR status) as opposed to the "physical presence requirement" (c.f. citizenship), is that documented somewhere, because I can't find any document that says minors do not need to meet that requirement?

I tried finding anything specifically about minors and residency obligations and couldn't find such a thing on the IRCC site, except the PR card renewal information, and something similar in their help centre (excerpting only rules that mention children):

...you must live in Canada for at least two years within a five-year period...

Time spent outside Canada may also count towards the two years if you are:

• a dependent child travelling with his or her father or mother who is a Canadian citizen,

It may also count if you are:

a child travelling with his or her father or mother who is a permanent resident and who works full-time for:

• a Canadian business, or
• the public service of Canada or a province.

The fact that there are specific clauses for children with PR status who accompany (one of) their parent(s) to me suggest that the residency obligation does apply to children. Similarly, the renewal forms for PR cards do not have specific clauses for children to exempt them from any of the residency obligation requirements, again strongly suggesting that the residency obligation does apply.

Looking at the IRCC operational instructions (for citizenship) the requirement is that PR status must have been maintained (emphasis mine):

Permanent resident status is verified for all minor applicants and that status must have been maintained and there must be no unfulfilled conditions under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act related to their permanent resident status.​

which again implies (but does not outright state) that the residency obligation must be met, also for citizenship.

Now, @Canadiancoming 's son likely meets those requirements, because the rules require a PR to be able to get to 730 days in a 5 year window. The son was allowed in the country 1.5 years ago, so at that point he was assumed (by the CBSA officer) to be able to meet that presence obligation. There's no reason to assume that has ceased to be the case. The fact that there is no physical presence requirement for citizenship means that just being able to meet the residency obligation is sufficient in a concurrent application for citizenship for a minor.

 

[Canadiancoming]

Thanks guys for all your input. Obviously there are difference between Minor PR conditions and obligations.
Obligations are linked to physical presence and conditions are those were PR were subjected when obtained.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

If you are talking about the "residency obligation" (something necessary to maintain PR status) as opposed to the "physical presence requirement" (c.f. citizenship), is that documented somewhere, because I can't find any document that says minors do not need to meet that requirement?

I tried finding anything specifically about minors and residency obligations and couldn't find such a thing on the IRCC site, except the PR card renewal information, and something similar in their help centre (excerpting only rules that mention children):

...you must live in Canada for at least two years within a five-year period...

Time spent outside Canada may also count towards the two years if you are:

• a dependent child travelling with his or her father or mother who is a Canadian citizen,

It may also count if you are:

a child travelling with his or her father or mother who is a permanent resident and who works full-time for:

• a Canadian business, or
• the public service of Canada or a province.

The fact that there are specific clauses for children with PR status who accompany (one of) their parent(s) to me suggest that the residency obligation does apply to children. Similarly, the renewal forms for PR cards do not have specific clauses for children to exempt them from any of the residency obligation requirements, again strongly suggesting that the residency obligation does apply.

Looking at the IRCC operational instructions (for citizenship) the requirement is that PR status must have been maintained (emphasis mine):

Permanent resident status is verified for all minor applicants and that status must have been maintained and there must be no unfulfilled conditions under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act related to their permanent resident status.​

which again implies (but does not outright state) that the residency obligation must be met, also for citizenship.

Now, @Canadiancoming 's son likely meets those requirements, because the rules require a PR to be able to get to 730 days in a 5 year window. The son was allowed in the country 1.5 years ago, so at that point he was assumed (by the CBSA officer) to be able to meet that presence obligation. There's no reason to assume that has ceased to be the case. The fact that there is no physical presence requirement for citizenship means that just being able to meet the residency obligation is sufficient in a concurrent application for citizenship for a minor.

Citizenship law allows for a Canadian citizen to apply for a grant of citizenship for their child, with the only requirement being that the child is already a PR. IRCC could refuse the child citizenship for not meeting the PR RO when included with in the parent application but as soon as the parent is a Canadian citizen, they could apply for the child anyways and it would be approved. .

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-2.html#docCont

Grant of citizenship

(2) The Minister shall grant citizenship to any person who is a permanent resident within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and is the minor child of a citizen, if

• (a) an application for citizenship is made to the Minister by a person authorized by regulation to make the application on behalf of the minor child; and
• (b) the person has, subject to the regulations, no unfulfilled conditions under that Act relating to his or her status as a permanent resident.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-1.html#h-2

2 (1) The definitions in this subsection apply in this Act.

permanent resident means a person who has acquired permanent resident status and has not subsequently lost that status under section 46. (résident permanent)


When IRCC refers to "unfulfilled conditions", it is has nothing to do with the Residency Obligation. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/canadian-citizenship/grant/residence/verifying-conditions-requirements/conditional-permanent-residence.html.

"Status maintained" also has nothing to do with the PR Residency Obligation. It simply means that the child cannot have had their PR status revoked.

 

[btbt]

Citizenship law allows for a Canadian citizen to apply for a grant of citizenship for their child, with the only requirement being that the child is already a PR. IRCC could refuse the child citizenship for not meeting the PR RO when included with in the parent application but as soon as the parent is a Canadian citizen, they could apply for the child anyways and it would be approved. .

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-2.html#docCont

Grant of citizenship

(2) The Minister shall grant citizenship to any person who is a permanent resident within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and is the minor child of a citizen, if

• (a) an application for citizenship is made to the Minister by a person authorized by regulation to make the application on behalf of the minor child; and
• (b) the person has, subject to the regulations, no unfulfilled conditions under that Act relating to his or her status as a permanent resident.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-1.html#h-2

2 (1) The definitions in this subsection apply in this Act.

permanent resident means a person who has acquired permanent resident status and has not subsequently lost that status under section 46. (résident permanent)


When IRCC refers to "unfulfilled conditions", it is has nothing to do with the Residency Obligation. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/canadian-citizenship/grant/residence/verifying-conditions-requirements/conditional-permanent-residence.html.

"Status maintained" also has nothing to do with the PR Residency Obligation. It simply means that the child cannot have had their PR status revoked.

Thank you for the reference.

I take "Status maintained" to mean that none of the events in IRPA 46 have taken place. Do you have reason to believe otherwise? Because reading it thus does include the residency obligation, by way of IRPA 46(c), 28, and 44(2). The citizenship Act (13.1) makes it possible for an application for someone who does not meet their RO to be suspended, and then under IRPA 44(2) a removal order could be issued.

There is little chance of that happening, of course, as IRCC does not request information with a (5)(2) citizenship application that would permit it to make the determination necessary to initiate such proceedings. Moreover, IRPA 29(2)(c) (and equivalent considerations in policy) likely keeps this from being applied to minors who apply for citizenship under 5(2) who have a parent that did meet their RO. All that does not change that a legal basis exists for enforcement around non-compliance with the RO of a minor PR.

I am aware of the meaning of conditional permanent residence.

@Canadiancoming there is https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen/eligibility/minors.html which answers your original question quite clearly.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Thank you for the reference.

I take "Status maintained" to mean that none of the events in IRPA 46 have taken place. Do you have reason to believe otherwise? Because reading it thus does include the residency obligation, by way of IRPA 46(c), 28, and 44(2). The citizenship Act (13.1) makes it possible for an application for someone who does not meet their RO to be suspended, and then under IRPA 44(2) a removal order could be issued.

There is little chance of that happening, of course, as IRCC does not request information with a (5)(2) citizenship application that would permit it to make the determination necessary to initiate such proceedings. Moreover, IRPA 29(2)(c) (and equivalent considerations in policy) likely keeps this from being applied to minors who apply for citizenship under 5(2) who have a parent that did meet their RO. All that does not change that a legal basis exists for enforcement around non-compliance with the RO of a minor PR.

I am aware of the meaning of conditional permanent residence.

@Canadiancoming there is https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen/eligibility/minors.html which answers your original question quite clearly.

"Status maintained" is irrelevant anyways, as it is not stated in citizenship law. The only requirement under 5 (2) is that a child be a PR without unfulfilled conditions.

No one has said that there is no legal basis for enforcement of non-compliance of a minor with the PR RO. There certainly is and it does happen, just not because of a citizenship app.

The issue here is whether the non-compliance renders a child unable to apply for citizenship with their parent, which it does not. It is basically a loophole where IRCC knows that the child has violated the RO but also knows that the child will be eligible for citizenship regardless of that violation as soon as their parent is a citizen. IRCC shows a bit of common sense in just allowing such children to be included in the original app.

 

[marktlimpin]

If you and your son are Permanent Residents, and if you meet the eligibility requirements for citizenship, then you can include your son in the application.

My daughter who is a minor arrived in Canada as a permanent resident in June 2017. I included her in my application for citizenship around September 2017. We became Canadian Citizens in March 26, 2018. My daughter has only been in Canada as a permanent resident for less than a year and now she’s a Canadian Citizen. So based on my experiences, your minor child does not need to meet the physical presence requirements as long as she’s already a permanent resident at the time you apply for citizenship.