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H&C application

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,284
3,046
Although I agree with you OP seems to be trying to create a favourable letter from a doctor that describes a serious illness to try and increase chances. If he is pulled into secondary having some more concrete proof that his mother actually has a serious issue would back up a doctor’s note that can easily be falsified by anyone.
Yes. Better evidence of a fact is indeed better evidence. And if that is in reference to a key fact, the quality of the evidence can make a difference. So as a general principle, if someone's medical condition is an important factor, yes, good to have better quality documentation than something which might be brushed off as cursory self-serving conclusions let alone potentially falsified.

And as a general principle, yes, good idea to have stronger objective evidence, qualitatively stronger NOT quantitatively, especially if it is quantitatively small. In contrast, pulling out and presenting a folder full of medical records is not likely to help matters much.

Beyond that getting into the details about particular items of evidence is really tricky stuff and not a subject which can be reliably addressed in a forum setting. Marshaling evidence to make a persuasive case is what high paid experienced trial lawyers do. Few of them ever touch immigration or citizenship cases.

Short of that, short of obtaining the assistance of an experienced trial lawyer, which would be difficult to do even if one has a brother who is one of those high paid experienced trial lawyers (they tend to be less than interested in such matters as this), what appears to work best the most often is to simply be prepared to openly, honestly, fully explain the situation, the what and why, mostly in one's own words.

Which yeah, tends to leave those who have not been genuinely engaged in making the move on the downside of the equation. The best they can do is to be making the genuine effort as soon as possible. And for them the open, honest, genuine explanation of what and why is still the best bet, their best chance.

If their objective is just to hold on to PR status without actually, genuinely trying to make the move to settle PERMANENTLY in Canada, that's a different ball game. What I have to offer will not help them much. Most of what others in this forum offer will not help them much. And CBSA officials appear to be more capable of recognizing the difference now than it seems they were just a few years ago. Most signs indicate they are looking closer, and that they have more tools for identifying who is being evasive or deceptive.

Indeed, there appears to be significantly more recent IAD cases addressing misrepresentations in PoE examinations than we saw in the past. Among the most commonly caught misrepresentation is the PR who reports having last been in Canada more recently, in the customs declaration, than the PR actually was. Not sure how it is that CBSA officers are catching this, but it is readily apparent they are in a significant number of instances.

In any event, typically the outcome of the PoE Secondary examination will be far more influenced by the two key factors: how much in breach the PR is AND the officer's impressions about the PR's credibility, the officer's impression about how honestly the PR has been and to what extent the PR has made a genuine effort to get to Canada as soon as reasonably practical and is genuinely engaged in an effort to settle in Canada PERMANENTLY.

Other details can influence things some. But those two mostly dictate how it will go. If the officer's perception of the PR is that the PR is an honest, genuine immigrant doing his or her best to make the move to Canada, not playing games, not being coy let alone deceptive, the officer is likely to readily accept even a very brief letter generally referencing a family member's medical situation. In contrast, if the officer is skeptical, let alone outright suspects some fudging of the facts, a so-called mountain of evidence is not likely to help much.

After all, it does not really matter how seriously ill a PR's parent was or wasn't. That does NOT excuse a breach of the RO.

There seems to be some widespread misconceptions about H&C factors related to a family member's health. The RO itself is intended to accommodate these things. Allowing three years of absence is expected to be enough to meet a PR's need to go home when a parent has a serious illness. More time abroad than that suggests the PR's priorities are inconsistent with keeping PR status.

In contrast, if the situation with a parent or other matter in the home country is something that merely delayed the PR's plans, and the PR has reasonably, genuinely been in pursuit of making the move to Canada, so far it appears that PoE officials are still showing some lenient discretion and allowing some the opportunity to stay without being Reported. No guarantees. We do not know the statistics. We know some are treated with much leniency. Some not so much.

Bottom-line: the sooner the PR gets to Canada, the better chance of keeping status; and the more HONESTLY the PR is prepared to explain his or her situation, the better chance.

Bringing this around, finally, to the idea of "creating" evidence. Asking a doctor for some documentation is one thing. "Creating" evidence is another. The implications are obvious. And CBSA officers are not blind. They tend to see the obvious, and know it for what it is, more often than not.
 
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Akash20071986

Star Member
Feb 17, 2020
127
11
Yes. Better evidence of a fact is indeed better evidence. And if that is in reference to a key fact, the quality of the evidence can make a difference. So as a general principle, if someone's medical condition is an important factor, yes, good to have better quality documentation than something which might be brushed off as cursory self-serving conclusions let alone potentially falsified.

And as a general principle, yes, good idea to have stronger objective evidence, qualitatively stronger NOT quantitatively, especially if it is quantitatively small. In contrast, pulling out and presenting a folder full of medical records is not likely to help matters much.

Beyond that getting into the details about particular items of evidence is really tricky stuff and not a subject which can be reliably addressed in a forum setting. Marshaling evidence to make a persuasive case is what high paid experienced trial lawyers do. Few of them ever touch immigration or citizenship cases.

Short of that, short of obtaining the assistance of an experienced trial lawyer, which would be difficult to do even if one has a brother who is one of those high paid experienced trial lawyers (they tend to be less than interested in such matters as this), what appears to work best the most often is to simply be prepared to openly, honestly, fully explain the situation, the what and why, mostly in one's own words.

Which yeah, tends to leave those who have not been genuinely engaged in making the move on the downside of the equation. The best they can do is to be making the genuine effort as soon as possible. And for them the open, honest, genuine explanation of what and why is still the best bet, their best chance.

If their objective is just to hold on to PR status without actually, genuinely trying to make the move to settle PERMANENTLY in Canada, that's a different ball game. What I have to offer will not help them much. Most of what others in this forum offer will not help them much. And CBSA officials appear to be more capable of recognizing the difference now than it seems they were just a few years ago. Most signs indicate they are looking closer, and that they have more tools for identifying who is being evasive or deceptive.

Indeed, there appears to be significantly more recent IAD cases addressing misrepresentations in PoE examinations than we saw in the past. Among the most commonly caught misrepresentation is the PR who reports having last been in Canada more recently, in the customs declaration, than the PR actually was. Not sure how it is that CBSA officers are catching this, but it is readily apparent they are in a significant number of instances.

In any event, typically the outcome of the PoE Secondary examination will be far more influenced by the two key factors: how much in breach the PR is AND the officer's impressions about the PR's credibility, the officer's impression about how honestly the PR has been and to what extent the PR has made a genuine effort to get to Canada as soon as reasonably practical and is genuinely engaged in an effort to settle in Canada PERMANENTLY.

Other details can influence things some. But those two mostly dictate how it will go. If the officer's perception of the PR is that the PR is an honest, genuine immigrant doing his or her best to make the move to Canada, not playing games, not being coy let alone deceptive, the officer is likely to readily accept even a very brief letter generally referencing a family member's medical situation. In contrast, if the officer is skeptical, let alone outright suspects some fudging of the facts, a so-called mountain of evidence is not likely to help much.

After all, it does not really matter how seriously ill a PR's parent was or wasn't. That does NOT excuse a breach of the RO.

There seems to be some widespread misconceptions about H&C factors related to a family member's health. The RO itself is intended to accommodate these things. Allowing three years of absence is expected to be enough to meet a PR's need to go home when a parent has a serious illness. More time abroad than that suggests the PR's priorities are inconsistent with keeping PR status.

In contrast, if the situation with a parent or other matter in the home country is something that merely delayed the PR's plans, and the PR has reasonably, genuinely been in pursuit of making the move to Canada, so far it appears that PoE officials are still showing some lenient discretion and allowing some the opportunity to stay without being Reported. No guarantees. We do not know the statistics. We know some are treated with much leniency. Some not so much.

Bottom-line: the sooner the PR gets to Canada, the better chance of keeping status; and the more HONESTLY the PR is prepared to explain his or her situation, the better chance.

Bringing this around, finally, to the idea of "creating" evidence. Asking a doctor for some documentation is one thing. "Creating" evidence is another. The implications are obvious. And CBSA officers are not blind. They tend to see the obvious, and know it for what it is, more often than not.
Thnx for the information...
I had word with Canadian lawyer she said to me.. No one can issue deport letter or report me as I am nt inadmissible to enter into Canada... Not meeting RO obligations is not a crime I can come with ease no need to tension at all... Pls share your thoughts..
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,775
Thnx for the information...
I had word with Canadian lawyer she said to me.. No one can issue deport letter or report me as I am nt inadmissible to enter into Canada... Not meeting RO obligations is not a crime I can come with ease no need to tension at all... Pls share your thoughts..
You can be reported at the POE for not meeting your RO. That starts the process to revoke PR which you have the right to appeal. You are able to enter Canada and can choose to appeal if you want. Your H&C reasons will be assessed at that time to determine if you get to keep your PR. If you don’t appeal you PR with be revoked. If you don’t keep your PR you must leave Canada. Oversimplified but the basic process.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,284
3,046
Thnx for the information...
I had word with Canadian lawyer she said to me.. No one can issue deport letter or report me as I am nt inadmissible to enter into Canada... Not meeting RO obligations is not a crime I can come with ease no need to tension at all... Pls share your thoughts..
Whether or not you are in breach of the PR Residency Obligation, and thus inadmissible, is a matter of fact depending on the particular facts in your case, which mostly depends on the number of days you have been IN Canada.

I am not at all privy to the reasoning of the lawyer you refer to, and more importantly I do not know what facts that lawyer's opinion is based on.

I will generally defer to a lawyer's opinion. I am no expert.

But you have stated facts here which clearly indicate you have in fact failed to comply with the PR RO:

. . . am having Canadian PR.. Which I got in Feb 2015...I visited Canada later on 26th September 2015 for short landing and came back to India on 02nd October 2015, therefore, my Canadian stay was only for 6 days..
And there is NO doubt, a PR who has failed to comply with the RO is at RISK for being issued a 44(1) Report AND Departure Order the next time they arrive at a Canadian PoE.

It is correct that a breach of the RO is NOT a crime. It is not a "wrong" of any sort. It is nonetheless a failure to meet the requirements for keeping PR status and thus it is grounds for finding the PR inadmissible and issuing a Departure Order.

That is the short and simple of it. No doubts about this. None at all. Throughout this forum I have cited and LINKED dozens of ACTUAL cases reported in OFFICIAL IAD decisions in which PRs were issued Departure Orders for failing to comply with the RO, including many who had a valid PR card when they were issued the Report and Departure Order.

Those decisions are consistent with both the law itself AND with the guidelines IRCC has for enforcing these particular laws. No particular expertise needed to understand the basics of the RO and the consequences for failing to comply with your obligations as a PR.

If the lawyer asserted something to the contrary, that would be wrong, way wrong. For sure. BUT my guess is that what the lawyer said was not wrong so much as either the lawyer misunderstood your question, or misunderstood the facts, or you misunderstood what the lawyer said.

I will note that one area of common misunderstanding is the effect of being issued a Departure Order at the PoE upon arrival. The Departure Order is NOT immediately enforceable. Thus, the PR is allowed to enter Canada and continues to be a PR pending the possibility of an appeal.
-- If the PR does not appeal the 44(1) Report and Departure Order, after thirty days the Departure Order is enforceable. PR status is terminated. How the physical deportation process then takes place, if the individual (who is no longer a PR, but rather a Foreign National) fails to timely leave Canada, is a separate discussion. But make no mistake, the individual is NO longer a PR.​
-- If the PR appeals (within 30 days), the Departure Order remains unenforceable for as long as the appeal is pending. Whether it becomes enforceable and would then lead to actual Deportation actions depends on the outcome of the appeal and, again, whether the former PR timely leaves Canada. The PR needs to win the appeal to keep PR status​

For the PR going through this process, saying that this can be done with "ease" and "no tension" seems way, way off the mark, at least for any PR who is hoping to save their PR status and live a life in Canada.
 
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asaeed100

Hero Member
Dec 4, 2019
288
19
Yes. Better evidence of a fact is indeed better evidence. And if that is in reference to a key fact, the quality of the evidence can make a difference. So as a general principle, if someone's medical condition is an important factor, yes, good to have better quality documentation than something which might be brushed off as cursory self-serving conclusions let alone potentially falsified.

And as a general principle, yes, good idea to have stronger objective evidence, qualitatively stronger NOT quantitatively, especially if it is quantitatively small. In contrast, pulling out and presenting a folder full of medical records is not likely to help matters much.

Beyond that getting into the details about particular items of evidence is really tricky stuff and not a subject which can be reliably addressed in a forum setting. Marshaling evidence to make a persuasive case is what high paid experienced trial lawyers do. Few of them ever touch immigration or citizenship cases.

Short of that, short of obtaining the assistance of an experienced trial lawyer, which would be difficult to do even if one has a brother who is one of those high paid experienced trial lawyers (they tend to be less than interested in such matters as this), what appears to work best the most often is to simply be prepared to openly, honestly, fully explain the situation, the what and why, mostly in one's own words.

Which yeah, tends to leave those who have not been genuinely engaged in making the move on the downside of the equation. The best they can do is to be making the genuine effort as soon as possible. And for them the open, honest, genuine explanation of what and why is still the best bet, their best chance.

If their objective is just to hold on to PR status without actually, genuinely trying to make the move to settle PERMANENTLY in Canada, that's a different ball game. What I have to offer will not help them much. Most of what others in this forum offer will not help them much. And CBSA officials appear to be more capable of recognizing the difference now than it seems they were just a few years ago. Most signs indicate they are looking closer, and that they have more tools for identifying who is being evasive or deceptive.

Indeed, there appears to be significantly more recent IAD cases addressing misrepresentations in PoE examinations than we saw in the past. Among the most commonly caught misrepresentation is the PR who reports having last been in Canada more recently, in the customs declaration, than the PR actually was. Not sure how it is that CBSA officers are catching this, but it is readily apparent they are in a significant number of instances.

In any event, typically the outcome of the PoE Secondary examination will be far more influenced by the two key factors: how much in breach the PR is AND the officer's impressions about the PR's credibility, the officer's impression about how honestly the PR has been and to what extent the PR has made a genuine effort to get to Canada as soon as reasonably practical and is genuinely engaged in an effort to settle in Canada PERMANENTLY.

Other details can influence things some. But those two mostly dictate how it will go. If the officer's perception of the PR is that the PR is an honest, genuine immigrant doing his or her best to make the move to Canada, not playing games, not being coy let alone deceptive, the officer is likely to readily accept even a very brief letter generally referencing a family member's medical situation. In contrast, if the officer is skeptical, let alone outright suspects some fudging of the facts, a so-called mountain of evidence is not likely to help much.

After all, it does not really matter how seriously ill a PR's parent was or wasn't. That does NOT excuse a breach of the RO.

There seems to be some widespread misconceptions about H&C factors related to a family member's health. The RO itself is intended to accommodate these things. Allowing three years of absence is expected to be enough to meet a PR's need to go home when a parent has a serious illness. More time abroad than that suggests the PR's priorities are inconsistent with keeping PR status.

In contrast, if the situation with a parent or other matter in the home country is something that merely delayed the PR's plans, and the PR has reasonably, genuinely been in pursuit of making the move to Canada, so far it appears that PoE officials are still showing some lenient discretion and allowing some the opportunity to stay without being Reported. No guarantees. We do not know the statistics. We know some are treated with much leniency. Some not so much.

Bottom-line: the sooner the PR gets to Canada, the better chance of keeping status; and the more HONESTLY the PR is prepared to explain his or her situation, the better chance.

Bringing this around, finally, to the idea of "creating" evidence. Asking a doctor for some documentation is one thing. "Creating" evidence is another. The implications are obvious. And CBSA officers are not blind. They tend to see the obvious, and know it for what it is, more often than not.
i agree with all you have said. however i believe at least you or some (not generally ircc or cbsa) need to understand that even three years may not be enough for some to make the final move while they are either busy taking care of eldery parents or have some sort of medical issues , have a decent job, involved in some sort of a legal battle etc
the social life and fabric around the world is quite different than that of the western countries. for the authorities 3 yars may be enough and yes they need to have some sort of limit on the extent of the waiver and let off. . however for some even a decade or more may not be enough. the culture, tradition, family values do play a part when it comes to finally making the decision on abandoning all and starting from scratch

i am not looking for a detailed reply on this and dont want to engage you into a pointless debate/argument and waste your time.
just thought to let you know that it is not easy to just pack your bags and leave and start living in a basement without any windows the next day
just like all fingers are not of the same length, all immigrants may have different circumstances . You (not the authorities) cannot use the three years as a yard stick for them all. the world is a lot bigger than some may actually think. right cannuk warrior!
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,775
i agree with all you have said. however i believe at least you or some (not generally ircc or cbsa) need to understand that even three years may not be enough for some to make the final move while they are either busy taking care of eldery parents or have some sort of medical issues , have a decent job, involved in some sort of a legal battle etc
the social life and fabric around the world is quite different than that of the western countries. for the authorities 3 yars may be enough and yes they need to have some sort of limit on the extent of the waiver and let off. . however for some even a decade or more may not be enough. the culture, tradition, family values do play a part when it comes to finally making the decision on abandoning all and starting from scratch

i am not looking for a detailed reply on this and dont want to engage you into a pointless debate/argument and waste your time.
just thought to let you know that it is not easy to just pack your bags and leave and start living in a basement without any windows the next day
just like all fingers are not of the same length, all immigrants may have different circumstances . You (not the authorities) cannot use the three years as a yard stick for them all. the world is a lot bigger than some may actually think. right cannuk warrior!
Getting Canadian PR is something someone seeks out and is not necessary. If someone is not willing or able to follow the very lenient residency obligation they have the option of remaining in their home country or a 3rd country. Very simple. Canada ican actually very kind as you can see since your children have been able to retain their PR after 10 years of absence. The same can not be said for adults who have left Canada for over a decade with their whole family and have continued to have normal lives including having other children who are not PRs.
 

Copingwithlife

VIP Member
Jul 29, 2018
3,944
1,904
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i agree with all you have said. however i believe at least you or some (not generally ircc or cbsa) need to understand that even three years may not be enough for some to make the final move while they are either busy taking care of eldery parents or have some sort of medical issues , have a decent job, involved in some sort of a legal battle etc
the social life and fabric around the world is quite different than that of the western countries. for the authorities 3 yars may be enough and yes they need to have some sort of limit on the extent of the waiver and let off. . however for some even a decade or more may not be enough. the culture, tradition, family values do play a part when it comes to finally making the decision on abandoning all and starting from scratch

i am not looking for a detailed reply on this and dont want to engage you into a pointless debate/argument and waste your time.
just thought to let you know that it is not easy to just pack your bags and leave and start living in a basement without any windows the next day
just like all fingers are not of the same length, all immigrants may have different circumstances . You (not the authorities) cannot use the three years as a yard stick for them all. the world is a lot bigger than some may actually think. right cannuk warrior!
Then without going into a long response, why even bother ? If you know you have obstacles to comply , why even bother ?
 

asaeed100

Hero Member
Dec 4, 2019
288
19
Getting Canadian PR is something someone seeks out and is not necessary. If someone is not willing or able to follow the very lenient residency obligation they have the option of remaining in their home country or a 3rd country. Very simple. Canada ican actually very kind as you can see since your children have been able to retain their PR after 10 years of absence. The same can not be said for adults who have left Canada for over a decade with their whole family and have continued to have normal lives including having other children who are not PRs.
AGAIN what you may think is lenient may not be for others. yes, the system has limits and one should not TRY to abuse it as much as possible. . but again going about making an immigration case within totally legal boundaries- is not a crime - which you seem not to be getting a complete grip of. it all boils down to ones intentions in the end. questions like did someone take un-employment or social benefits may or may not give indications to their actual intentions.
but given the ecomominc conditions, job situation, living expenses etc of the country, plenty may argue or weigh in whether migrating to canada is actually worth it for them or their familes. For some coming late rather than early may actually work out best for both the country and the immigrant . but again, this is a private matter for any immigrant and that is not and should not be focus of this forum.

one cannot judge and make assumptions as to why someone was not able to comply with RO. Packing up and leaving may be have been easier for you considering you probably had nothing to hold on to, it may not be for for others due to family ties/obligations, jobs, investments, court cases, health , kids in school/college etc or it could be about what i mentioned earlier.

members here are not govt appointed officials. one doesnt have the right to question the "intentions" and be told what they should do or not do.
if they wanted answers to such questions, they can easily ask their JEALOUS neighbor.

isn't that totally un-canadian, btw? this goes for all of those members who try to push such ideas day in and day out.
thanks
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,775
AGAIN what you may think is lenient may not be for others. yes, the system has limits and one should not TRY to abuse it as much as possible. . but again going about making an immigration case within totally legal boundaries- is not a crime - which you seem not to be getting a complete grip of. it all boils down to ones intentions in the end. questions like did someone take un-employment or social benefits may or may not give indications to their actual intentions.
but given the ecomominc conditions, job situation, living expenses etc of the country, plenty may argue or weigh in whether migrating to canada is actually worth it for them or their familes. For some coming late rather than early may actually work out best for both the country and the immigrant . but again, this is a private matter for any immigrant and that is not and should not be focus of this forum.

one cannot judge and make assumptions as to why someone was not able to comply with RO. Packing up and leaving may be have been easier for you considering you probably had nothing to hold on to, it may not be for for others due to family ties/obligations, jobs, investments, court cases, health , kids in school/college etc or it could be about what i mentioned earlier.

members here are not govt appointed officials. one doesnt have the right to question the "intentions" and be told what they should do or not do.
if they wanted answers to such questions, they can easily ask their JEALOUS neighbor.

isn't that totally un-canadian, btw? this goes for all of those members who try to push such ideas day in and day out.
thanks
2 out of 5 years is lenient compared to the immigration programs in other countries like the US, Australia, lots of European countries. It allows people to spend more time abroad than in Canada. I don’t think you will find many would will not call Canada’s RO requirement lenient. It has been referred to as lenient in various immigration judgements I have read. The whole point of Canada’s immigration system is to bring in young people/young families to work/become tax payers to build the economy and balance out our ageing population. Your argument that immigrants moving later on in their lives because It could be better for both the country and the immigrant doesn’t make sense. Canada relies on people paying into the tax base for 40 years to pay for all the social benefits they will receive (eg. Healthcre, education, pensions, etc.). If someone does not to move because they have better job prospects at home, have investments, there is a lower cost of living in their home country or they enjoy the social life better in their country they should continue live at home. That is a personal choice. If a family decides to immigrate their children can transfer to a Canadian school. If they are older they can decide to remain studying at home knowing that they may not ever be able to move to Canada. I am sure most other immigrants have worked hard and may have struggled initially to start their career in Canada. Some may have never reached the same career or financial potential as in their home countries. Many may have preferred to have their career at home and immigrate in their 50s but that was not an option. The immigration system favours young applicants for a reason. They also may enjoy the social life better in their own country. Most made a commitment to Canada and followed their residency obligations and so would argue that they made sacrifices to come to Canada so why shouldn’t others also have follow the rules and make sacrifices if necessary. It is unclear how long you ever spent in Canada but the last time you left Canada was in 2009. It is unclear if you ever even worked in Canada or paid taxes but you would now like to return when it suits you. Canada has been very generous and your children will be paying domestic fees although they have not had parents paying into the tax base. Subsidized fees are partially possible because Canadians parents pay high tax rates. Your plan is to buy a home and argue that you have now become established in Canada so you should be able to stay. Your other argument seems to be is that your adult children have returned to Canada so you need to be in Canada with them. They received PR based on H&C grounds was because they were removed as a child against their will. Had you applied for the whole family to return you were aware that the answer was likely to be different and that‘s why you didn’t apply as a family.

When it comes to caring for elderly parents most know they may have to care for their parents when they apply to immigrate to Canada. Some have returned for a few years when their parents get too ill to depend on hired help or split up their family because they want to meet their RO. Most have had some level of establishment in Canada before leaving and return as soon as possible. It has been 11 years since you have been in Canada and it isn’t clear if you have ever lived or worked in Canada. It seems as though you have other family who moved to Canada they could also have returned to care for your parents for a few years each so that all the families met their ROs and could return to Canada.

It is actually very Canadian to follow rules and expect that others follow the rules as well. There are numerous families who have made tough choices and sacrifices when they decided to immigrate to Canada. You seem to feel like some exceptions should be made for you because you had better opportunities at home. It does seem like you or your wife did some caregiving for your elderly parents but to what extent that actually factored into your inability to meet your RO is unclear. You are even the one highlighting your better career and financial prospects at home. How long did you and your family actually spend in Canada? You seem very entitled but I have a strong suspicion that you may have only spent a weeks to months in Canada as a soft landing and returned when you received your PR cards. Your arguments would be much stronger if you could show that you had spent 5+ years working and living in Canada.
 

asaeed100

Hero Member
Dec 4, 2019
288
19
2 out of 5 years is lenient compared to the immigration programs in other countries like the US, Australia, lots of European countries. It allows people to spend more time abroad than in Canada. I don’t think you will find many would will not call Canada’s RO requirement lenient. It has been referred to as lenient in various immigration judgements I have read. The whole point of Canada’s immigration system is to bring in young people/young families to work/become tax payers to build the economy and balance out our ageing population. Your argument that immigrants moving later on in their lives because It could be better for both the country and the immigrant doesn’t make sense. Canada relies on people paying into the tax base for 40 years to pay for all the social benefits they will receive (eg. Healthcre, education, pensions, etc.). If someone does not to move because they have better job prospects at home, have investments, there is a lower cost of living in their home country or they enjoy the social life better in their country they should continue live at home. That is a personal choice. If a family decides to immigrate their children can transfer to a Canadian school. If they are older they can decide to remain studying at home knowing that they may not ever be able to move to Canada. I am sure most other immigrants have worked hard and may have struggled initially to start their career in Canada. Some may have never reached the same career or financial potential as in their home countries. Many may have preferred to have their career at home and immigrate in their 50s but that was not an option. The immigration system favours young applicants for a reason. They also may enjoy the social life better in their own country. Most made a commitment to Canada and followed their residency obligations and so would argue that they made sacrifices to come to Canada so why shouldn’t others also have follow the rules and make sacrifices if necessary. It is unclear how long you ever spent in Canada but the last time you left Canada was in 2009. It is unclear if you ever even worked in Canada or paid taxes but you would now like to return when it suits you. Canada has been very generous and your children will be paying domestic fees although they have not had parents paying into the tax base. Subsidized fees are partially possible because Canadians parents pay high tax rates. Your plan is to buy a home and argue that you have now become established in Canada so you should be able to stay. Your other argument seems to be is that your adult children have returned to Canada so you need to be in Canada with them. They received PR based on H&C grounds was because they were removed as a child against their will. Had you applied for the whole family to return you were aware that the answer was likely to be different and that‘s why you didn’t apply as a family.

When it comes to caring for elderly parents most know they may have to care for their parents when they apply to immigrate to Canada. Some have returned for a few years when their parents get too ill to depend on hired help or split up their family because they want to meet their RO. Most have had some level of establishment in Canada before leaving and return as soon as possible. It has been 11 years since you have been in Canada and it isn’t clear if you have ever lived or worked in Canada. It seems as though you have other family who moved to Canada they could also have returned to care for your parents for a few years each so that all the families met their ROs and could return to Canada.

It is actually very Canadian to follow rules and expect that others follow the rules as well. There are numerous families who have made tough choices and sacrifices when they decided to immigrate to Canada. You seem to feel like some exceptions should be made for you because you had better opportunities at home. It does seem like you or your wife did some caregiving for your elderly parents but to what extent that actually factored into your inability to meet your RO is unclear. You are even the one highlighting your better career and financial prospects at home. How long did you and your family actually spend in Canada? You seem very entitled but I have a strong suspicion that you may have only spent a weeks to months in Canada as a soft landing and returned when you received your PR cards. Your arguments would be much stronger if you could show that you had spent 5+ years working and living in Canada.
you seem to be very good at twisting the arguments and focusing on things that i didnt have any issues to begin with

yes the Canadian system is lenient. in fact best of them all if you ask me
yes i have an extreme case
yes, i am not entitled to any leniency or special treatment
yes i have never abused or cheated the system (i could have gone in and out of US and had my days counted as if i i was still inside Canada.
yes i have not taken a single dollar as benefits
yes i am not looking for freebies

you have focused all your energy into thinking we are migrating late to avail the local tuition without paying any taxes. fyi my children are not planning on doing any of that. both will enrol in a private schools where you pay full fees.

now with that settled and without dwelling too much on my case which you have only enough information about, what i have given. you also have no idea on what i intend to do in the end (you didnt even know i had two teenagers applying for PRTD!)

you have dodge my direct questions and tried to hide behind my case every time. Please try to answer in a simple yes or no to the following
after this i will quit coming after you, but my job is actually done.

Now hopefully people visiting this forum looking for advice, will know that not everyone here is genuine or sincere.

Do you feel the urge to discourage minors applying for PRTD all the time or sometime?
Do you have permission from the forum/ircc/cbsa to judge people here?
are you a trained specialist or do you have personal experience in every single subject? you seem to have put your nose in every single topic on this forum?
Your answers reek of racism and are too blunt for senior member who is suppose to be helping people? is there a particular reason behind this sort of behavior ?
 
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k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,810
2,249
Canada
For what it's worth, private schools with full fees still get provincial subsidies. It's not something I support but it's something that happens.
 

asaeed100

Hero Member
Dec 4, 2019
288
19
Whether or not you are in breach of the PR Residency Obligation, and thus inadmissible, is a matter of fact depending on the particular facts in your case, which mostly depends on the number of days you have been IN Canada.

I am not at all privy to the reasoning of the lawyer you refer to, and more importantly I do not know what facts that lawyer's opinion is based on.

I will generally defer to a lawyer's opinion. I am no expert.

But you have stated facts here which clearly indicate you have in fact failed to comply with the PR RO:



And there is NO doubt, a PR who has failed to comply with the RO is at RISK for being issued a 44(1) Report AND Departure Order the next time they arrive at a Canadian PoE.

It is correct that a breach of the RO is NOT a crime. It is not a "wrong" of any sort. It is nonetheless a failure to meet the requirements for keeping PR status and thus it is grounds for finding the PR inadmissible and issuing a Departure Order.

That is the short and simple of it. No doubts about this. None at all. Throughout this forum I have cited and LINKED dozens of ACTUAL cases reported in OFFICIAL IAD decisions in which PRs were issued Departure Orders for failing to comply with the RO, including many who had a valid PR card when they were issued the Report and Departure Order.

Those decisions are consistent with both the law itself AND with the guidelines IRCC has for enforcing these particular laws. No particular expertise needed to understand the basics of the RO and the consequences for failing to comply with your obligations as a PR.

If the lawyer asserted something to the contrary, that would be wrong, way wrong. For sure. BUT my guess is that what the lawyer said was not wrong so much as either the lawyer misunderstood your question, or misunderstood the facts, or you misunderstood what the lawyer said.

I will note that one area of common misunderstanding is the effect of being issued a Departure Order at the PoE upon arrival. The Departure Order is NOT immediately enforceable. Thus, the PR is allowed to enter Canada and continues to be a PR pending the possibility of an appeal.
-- If the PR does not appeal the 44(1) Report and Departure Order, after thirty days the Departure Order is enforceable. PR status is terminated. How the physical deportation process then takes place, if the individual (who is no longer a PR, but rather a Foreign National) fails to timely leave Canada, is a separate discussion. But make no mistake, the individual is NO longer a PR.​
-- If the PR appeals (within 30 days), the Departure Order remains unenforceable for as long as the appeal is pending. Whether it becomes enforceable and would then lead to actual Deportation actions depends on the outcome of the appeal and, again, whether the former PR timely leaves Canada. The PR needs to win the appeal to keep PR status​

For the PR going through this process, saying that this can be done with "ease" and "no tension" seems way, way off the mark, at least for any PR who is hoping to save their PR status and live a life in Canada.
"if the PR does not appeal the 44(1) Report and Departure Order, after thirty days the Departure Order is enforceable"
can you appeal the 44 report even before MD decision or issuance of a DO?
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,775
"if the PR does not appeal the 44(1) Report and Departure Order, after thirty days the Departure Order is enforceable"
can you appeal the 44 report even before MD decision or issuance of a DO?
No you can’t appeal until you have MD decision. There would be nothing to appeal.