Someone has recommended that I transfer this discussion to this Permanent Residency Obligations section, so here is my issue/question: As many of you know, new PRs are required to meet IRCC's physical presence requirements, with only a few exceptions that allow accumulation of residency days when actually outside of Canada. I am a new PR and my move to Canada will take up to a year to accomplish in full, and in the meantime I will be traveling back and forth to Ontario, while spending considerable time in my U.S. residence before transitioning permanently to Canada later in 2021. This website - https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1466&top=10 - says that my time outside of Canada may count toward my permanent resident status if I travel with my spouse who is a Canadian citizen. During this transition period, my Canadian wife and I will not only be traveling within the U.S., but also continuing to reside here until later next year. Is it safe to assume that any time here in the U.S. with my wife fits this "traveling with my spouse" exception?
fulfilling PR physical presence requirement
- Thread starter TMELL
- Start date
No guarantee since you never spent significant time in Canada before moving. You essentially landed and returned to your life in the US.
Not really. Buying a place in Ontario and moving everything we own, and coordinating all of this so that our kid's transition to the new school there goes smoothly, and relocating our small business there and keeping it running throughout this whole process, all during a pandemic with the extra precautions it requires, and with a requirement for a 2-week quarantine for each trip we make ... well, it should go without saying that this is a massive undertaking and it certainly does not occur in just one quick landing at Pearson.
How much time are you spending in Ontario and how much in the US? How much time have you spent in Canada so far? You said you are spending considerable amount of time in the US. It may be an undertaking and that’s why you have 2 out of 5 years to accomplish the transition.
Exactly. But our time-frame is to be fully moved by sometime next year. As you can imagine, it is hard to emphasize how difficult it is to make this move while dealing with a two-week quarantine each time we travel into Canada - try scheduling that into your family's work/academic/personal life multiple times over a period of a few months, trust me it isn't easy. Canada is toying with the idea now of replacing the quarantine with a strict testing regimen for those crossing the border, and that will certainly help. Until then we will be spending more time here and less time in Canada, which will slow down the transition to becoming a full-time CA resident. So that is why I am asking the question of this forum, on whether my time spent in the U.S. with my Canadian citizen spouse can be counted toward my PR physical presence requirement of 2 out of 5 years. As per A28(2)(a)(ii) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, it would seem so, actually even prima facie, that is "(a) a permanent resident complies with the residency obligation with respect to a five-year period if, on each of a total of at least 730 days in that five-year period, they are: (ii) outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen who is their spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, their parent." Maybe I should just take the reg at face value, but I just wanted to be sure. And to do that I may need to just call on a Canadian immigration lawyer to be sure. But if anyone on this forum has insights that can save me that trouble, it will be much appreciated. Thanks all.
It will be very dependent on the situation. The rule is primarily in place for the Canadian to be able to take on an opportunity abroad without having to worry whether their spouse is going to lose their PR that is why it specifies who is accompanying whom. What is enforced depends on the agent. A time being established in Canada before starting to count days abroad is usually also something that is also looked at. If you are moving to Canada longterm it won’t make a big difference. Given the US rates of infection can you blame any country for insisting US citizens quarantine for 14 days?
@TMELL . . . IF the crux of your query is simply whether or not you can qualify for credit toward compliance with the PR Residency Obligation for the time you spend abroad WITH your Canadian citizen spouse, the initial response by @canuck78 covers it: NO GUARANTEE . . . since it appears you were NOT settled and living in Canada before going abroad, some CBSA and IRCC decision-makers might conclude you were NOT "accompanying" your citizen spouse abroad, and do not qualify for the credit.
The applicable statute does not confer the credit for time a PR is "WITH" a citizen spouse, but rather when "accompanying" the citizen spouse abroad.
This is often referred to as the who-accompanied-whom question. This is discussed in multiple threads and is extensively covered, in particular, in the topic titled "Who-accompanied-whom can matter for PRs living with citizen spouse abroad: UPDATE" (should link)
You say you are "a new PR and my move to Canada will take up to a year to accomplish in full." Even if you delay moving to Canada for a full year after landing, even two years, there is NO PR Residency Obligation issue. NO need to qualify for credit toward RO compliance based on accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse abroad.
I suspect @canuck78 may have transposed things in stating "that’s why you have 2 out of 5 years to accomplish the transition." Actually the new PR has THREE out of the first five years in which to make the move to Canada permanently (that is, the new PR only needs to spend TWO years in Canada out of the first five).
The impact of Covid so far is way, way less than what would tip the scales in this regard. UNLESS you were already outside Canada for a lengthy period of time before Covid had an impact on traveling. In which case it is not about the impact of Covid but, rather, a matter of how long you have already been outside Canada since landing, and how long it will be before you can come to Canada to stay.
That is, UNLESS, between the amount of time you have been abroad so far, since landing, and when you can reasonably, practically expect to be IN Canada to stay, UNLESS that looks to significantly exceed TWO years approaching THREE, there is no RO compliance issue looming. No problem.
But if, IF that is the case, that is IF the amount of time you have been abroad so far, since landing, and when you can reasonably, practically expect to be IN Canada to stay, IF that looks to significantly exceed TWO years approaching THREE, obviously that is NOT really about Covid. (Even though this year's circumstances, related to Covid, may contribute to whatever else has kept you abroad.)
So, let's be clear, IF the latter is the case, meaning you are approaching a scenario in which it is not likely you can meet the PR RO based on days IN Canada, your question is simply whether or not you might qualify for credit toward the RO based on the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse abroad. Why you might need that credit is a separate matter. A distraction.
Which leads this back to the earlier observation by @canuck78 "No guarantee since you never spent significant time in Canada before moving. You essentially landed and returned to your life in the US."
Right. No guarantee. You cite the relevant statute. Read it. Does not say a PR "with" a spouse abroad. Says a PR "accompanying" a citizen spouse abroad.
I am with you regarding IRPA Regulation 61(4), in so far as interpreting how it SHOULD be. It basically states that for purposes of this credit, a PR is "accompanying" the spouse each day the PR "is ordinarily residing with" the spouse.
How-it-is varies a bit from that how-it-should-be view. Problem is a number of IAD panels and even some Federal Court decisions have nonetheless evaluated the case applying the who-accompanied-whom question, and ruled that where it is not shown the PR was the one accompanying the citizen, the credit is not allowed . . . even for the time the couple clearly was living together abroad.
Who, when, how, why, and such, gets complicated. How it goes VARIES. Generally the who-accompanied-whom question does not appear to be an issue outside more or less extreme examples . . . like where it is obvious the PR was never settled in Canada. That is, whether the RO examination is conducted at a PoE by CBSA officials, or by IRCC officials attendant an application for a new PR card, generally they do not even inquire into the reasons why the couple were abroad, no questioning aimed at sorting out who was the one going abroad and thus accompanied by the other . . . UNLESS, for example, it is obvious that the PR was the one abroad and the citizen was accompanying the PR, SUCH as where the PR never was settled in Canada in the first place.
Thus, again as @canuck78 framed it, rather aptly, far more concisely than me, "No guarantee."
That said, in terms of factors relative to quantifying the RISKS, and the prospect of sliding by, that is another and much more complicated side of all this.
Best (safest) course to navigate: get to Canada to stay before spending 1095 days outside Canada since landing. Failing that, simply the SOONER the better.
The applicable statute does not confer the credit for time a PR is "WITH" a citizen spouse, but rather when "accompanying" the citizen spouse abroad.
This is often referred to as the who-accompanied-whom question. This is discussed in multiple threads and is extensively covered, in particular, in the topic titled "Who-accompanied-whom can matter for PRs living with citizen spouse abroad: UPDATE" (should link)
While I hesitate to speak for another participant here, my sense is that apart from the who-accompanied-whom RO credit aspect, @canuck78 was referencing that a more important factor could be when you landed and how much time you are spending in Canada in the meantime.
You say you are "a new PR and my move to Canada will take up to a year to accomplish in full." Even if you delay moving to Canada for a full year after landing, even two years, there is NO PR Residency Obligation issue. NO need to qualify for credit toward RO compliance based on accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse abroad.
I suspect @canuck78 may have transposed things in stating "that’s why you have 2 out of 5 years to accomplish the transition." Actually the new PR has THREE out of the first five years in which to make the move to Canada permanently (that is, the new PR only needs to spend TWO years in Canada out of the first five).
The impact of Covid so far is way, way less than what would tip the scales in this regard. UNLESS you were already outside Canada for a lengthy period of time before Covid had an impact on traveling. In which case it is not about the impact of Covid but, rather, a matter of how long you have already been outside Canada since landing, and how long it will be before you can come to Canada to stay.
That is, UNLESS, between the amount of time you have been abroad so far, since landing, and when you can reasonably, practically expect to be IN Canada to stay, UNLESS that looks to significantly exceed TWO years approaching THREE, there is no RO compliance issue looming. No problem.
But if, IF that is the case, that is IF the amount of time you have been abroad so far, since landing, and when you can reasonably, practically expect to be IN Canada to stay, IF that looks to significantly exceed TWO years approaching THREE, obviously that is NOT really about Covid. (Even though this year's circumstances, related to Covid, may contribute to whatever else has kept you abroad.)
So, let's be clear, IF the latter is the case, meaning you are approaching a scenario in which it is not likely you can meet the PR RO based on days IN Canada, your question is simply whether or not you might qualify for credit toward the RO based on the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse abroad. Why you might need that credit is a separate matter. A distraction.
Which leads this back to the earlier observation by @canuck78 "No guarantee since you never spent significant time in Canada before moving. You essentially landed and returned to your life in the US."
Right. No guarantee. You cite the relevant statute. Read it. Does not say a PR "with" a spouse abroad. Says a PR "accompanying" a citizen spouse abroad.
I am with you regarding IRPA Regulation 61(4), in so far as interpreting how it SHOULD be. It basically states that for purposes of this credit, a PR is "accompanying" the spouse each day the PR "is ordinarily residing with" the spouse.
How-it-is varies a bit from that how-it-should-be view. Problem is a number of IAD panels and even some Federal Court decisions have nonetheless evaluated the case applying the who-accompanied-whom question, and ruled that where it is not shown the PR was the one accompanying the citizen, the credit is not allowed . . . even for the time the couple clearly was living together abroad.
Who, when, how, why, and such, gets complicated. How it goes VARIES. Generally the who-accompanied-whom question does not appear to be an issue outside more or less extreme examples . . . like where it is obvious the PR was never settled in Canada. That is, whether the RO examination is conducted at a PoE by CBSA officials, or by IRCC officials attendant an application for a new PR card, generally they do not even inquire into the reasons why the couple were abroad, no questioning aimed at sorting out who was the one going abroad and thus accompanied by the other . . . UNLESS, for example, it is obvious that the PR was the one abroad and the citizen was accompanying the PR, SUCH as where the PR never was settled in Canada in the first place.
Thus, again as @canuck78 framed it, rather aptly, far more concisely than me, "No guarantee."
That said, in terms of factors relative to quantifying the RISKS, and the prospect of sliding by, that is another and much more complicated side of all this.
Best (safest) course to navigate: get to Canada to stay before spending 1095 days outside Canada since landing. Failing that, simply the SOONER the better.
In practical terms going forward, recommend you keep track of your time in and out of Canada carefully (and entry and exit info). Simplest approach is that any day or part day in Canada will count towards your residency obligation.
Keep track of your time abroad with your spouse separately - and also try to retain documentation of how you would show you were physically together (if you had to demonstrate it at a later date). Again in terms of simplicity, do not rely in advance on belief that your time with your spouse abroad will count towards residency obligation (especially as, in most straightforward application, time with your spouse in USA before you move completely to Canada is clearly not 'accompanying your spouse abroad' - although there is a possibility it may be interpreted generously.)
Hopefully/ideally your days in Canada will be sufficient to meet residency obligation. If you are somewhat short or close at the relevant point in the future, perhaps your information on time together abroad will help your case - but don't count on it. Assuming you landed relatively recently, you do have quite a bit of time ahead to meet the RO with physical days in Canada.
Keep track of your time abroad with your spouse separately - and also try to retain documentation of how you would show you were physically together (if you had to demonstrate it at a later date). Again in terms of simplicity, do not rely in advance on belief that your time with your spouse abroad will count towards residency obligation (especially as, in most straightforward application, time with your spouse in USA before you move completely to Canada is clearly not 'accompanying your spouse abroad' - although there is a possibility it may be interpreted generously.)
Hopefully/ideally your days in Canada will be sufficient to meet residency obligation. If you are somewhat short or close at the relevant point in the future, perhaps your information on time together abroad will help your case - but don't count on it. Assuming you landed relatively recently, you do have quite a bit of time ahead to meet the RO with physical days in Canada.
things are changing and going to be harder to meet the obligation outside Canada.
good luck
Folks, I landed a couple of months ago, and I'm just trying to get a handle on the rules I need to live with as we plan our transition to Canada. We have already begun that transition process, i.e. staging/listing here, looking at housing there, checking out schools, CA incorporation, etc., you know the drill. Covid in the U.S. creates addtioinal challenges right now just for our normal day-to-day work and school lives, it makes everything, including our CA settlement process harder and more time consuming, so that is why our settlement timeline will realistically stretch into next year. Although it does create an additional obstacle, our view on the 2-week quarantine is that it is excellent Canadian policy, and we are very glad to see Canada stand up to the U.S. administration and insist on a tight border - very responsible, very prudent. But of course, just practically speaking, the quarantine does add a signficant layer of travel planning for us, so that is another reason for our factoring additional time into the timeline. Lots of great commentary in your posts, and very appreciated, I feel like I've read a small book from solid experts on this subject, you all are really great to be so helpful. One thing that has been made clear, and in spades, is to be sure to leave margin in my physical presence count, to avoid a situation in the future when interpretation of this statute might throw out these outside Canada days, due to the several possible reasons you've outlined. As I see it now, with our current expected timeline, it seems realistic that I won't have to rely on counting days outside Canada.
dear fellows, i have a query if you can please answer. if someone would like to change their career or NOC after landing in Canada and completing PR application process and receiving SIN, healthcare, etc., is this possible and what are the implications or at time of citizenship ?
Hi
1. Once you are a PR you can work or do anything you want that is legal. It has no effect on Citizenship.
1. Once you are a PR you can work or do anything you want that is legal. It has no effect on Citizenship.
