Express entry based on LMIA (Not fair to international Grads)

[Dennia]

I created this forum just for people like Newbie(FBack 54) who is stuck in an unfortunate situation, even after all his hard work. Dont worry buddy, u wrkd fr it, u will see a bridge tht will connect u to ur desire

 

[kateg]

FBack54, you definitely make some good points.

The way they address the work experience is ridiculous. My job title was "Consultant" for most of my life - if I hadn't worked more than one job at a time, I'd have very little experience counting. The same goes for the companies I started and didn't sell out equity on.

The thing with Quebec is ... well, there's a reason that on almost any legal document (or immigration), there's all of Canada ... and Quebec. There's a similar situation in the states with Louisiana, but it's not quite so bad.

There are a number of tweaks to the system that would help out people like you (someone who from the sounds of things Canada should want to attract, given their goals). The first would be how they handle continuous, particularly for contractors. The second would be to fix their self-employed visas.

I'm not going to pick you apart - I made a list at one point of all the Plan A, Plan B, etc. that I had. I believe I made it to J. I'm theoretically someone they want as well, but I lack the educational credentials.

I'm getting a degree not because I need one, but because it gets me points. I have the points.

I'm working for a Canadian company not because I need the money - I still have my US job, and I'm a full time student. I do so because it was a job that was eligible for a LMIA. While the wages are competitive for the Canadian market, they are half of what I would make in San Francisco, Seattle, or NYC.

My wife has a phenomenal amount of education, which is why we have an ITA already. I figured it would take me several more years to qualify. I found an employer who qualifies for a LMIA (and who I expect to get it, they really are desperate), and would have gone that route if required. I'm motivated, and I took risks too.

Canada's political system is inconsistent, and I concur that Canada is (in several aspects) turning more and more into the US. I'm hoping that there are some political changes in the near future to help with some of this.

The objectives they have for EE actually make a lot of sense. The ways they try to accomplish leave some things to be desired, and there are people who fall through the cracks that shouldn't. They are trying to compensate for Tim Hortons (and everyone else) getting LMIAs, which shouldn't have happened. At some point, the pendulum will swing the other way again.

 

[kateg]

In my opinion a person who has achieved so much in their life, will mostly be humble and will try to learn more(known is a drop,unknown is a ocean) frm others experience and will also appreciate other hardwork too. All I see u doing is talking like ur the best and there is no one better than u ( This is something I learnt in my life,there is always better than u). May be this is ur personality.

I have a strong sense of self-worth. It's a function of a lot of abuse as a child. To be honest (and blunt), I've never learned much in the way of humility. I do seek to learn more - in everything I do, all the time. I learn through confrontation, through debate - I hope that others can prove me wrong so that I can improve, and I hope to open their perspectives as well.

Now lets get to the topic of LMIA. If I m an employer looking at ur resume, I will obviously just wnt to have u in my company in any means possible. But the huge question is,How of much of the resume is true? that always a May be, I will never know the truth unless I see ur skills.

That's half the fun I used to list everything I did on my resume. It was really long (and rather boring). Now, it's designed to say just enough to get the interview.

I don't ask an employer to trust me - I have the code samples, the verifiable history, and I make a simple offer. I'll volunteer two weeks for free. If they like what I do, hire and pay me. If not, they lose nothing.

I don't need trust, just an opportunity.

 

[FBack54]

Guys, it would be great if some of you could also post your experiences, especially if you're in any grey zones. Like Dennia said, we need to learn from others.

Call me naive, but is their any blowback if a bunch of PGWP holders penned a letter to the immigration committee with the support of some prominent lawyers that clearly spell out how the EE system isn't really working great for us PGWP holders? I'm probably naive to assume that they don't know, but what if they really don't? I get it, the EE system works for Canada right now. But it can be tweaked and made better, just like Kateg said. Is there any formal review of the EE program coming up to assess its successes and shortcomings? Is there are any channel for feedback?

 

[kateg]

happy for you
can you explain how you "found one"?
and what was the criteria may be someone else in this forum is also qualified and can have a chance.

I'm a trained developer. I started talking to employers, letting them know that I was looking for a job, but my hours were limited (due to my being a student), that I didn't have a work permit, and that I couldn't guarantee that I could keep working for them, as I didn't have a long-term work permit. I focused on employers with very old job listings that were still active, ones who had been advertising for some time.

Most of the companies I approached laughed at me, as they had no reason to hire someone like that. The ones that were left were desperate. I found a company that needed someone who could do very high efficiency code for web services, using software that isn't well known. They had been looking for months and months before they met me, and made it clear that they would take anyone who could do the work, as they couldn't find anyone that could handle their codebase and accomplish their objectives. They made it clear they would be willing to sponsor someone qualified, as they absolutely couldn't find any.

 

[fkl]

Interesting thread indeed. Reading through a lot of opinion built upon faking resume, aren't you guys aware of any sort of interview evaluation? Last time i checked - in most professions, people are grilled enough in their domain to know their worth - for at least any role worth pursuing. That is surely the case at least with my profession i.e. software development.

For the record of fake degrees scandal being mentioned some where with Pakistan's name on it, i along with roughly half a dozen others were brought over here with LMIAs for software related jobs - all originally educated only in Pakistan though have worked with multiple MNCs all across the world.

For some looking for LMIA based roles, if you are good in multicore network processor software (Broadcom, Cavium, Intel DPDK et al), Network virtualization or SDN, my employer has been posting adds and interviewing for years. We find people on an off across the world but have open positions all the time. Shoot me a message please.

Lastly, with no disrespect intended but i certainly don't consider just a canadian degree making some one equally worthy of ITA - compared to LMIAs. Because LMIAs also get people like us, which are far better educated, experienced and proven in their domain of expertise. Some thing those with only a degree will take time to attain.

There might be hiccups with LMIA process indeed, it is no fun seeing a food services manager getting the same treatment as an engineer. But again in terms of position of Canadian economy - both have verified real tax paying jobs which is more of a problem at the moment for Canada than immigrants. It doesn't seem to bother the government for now and the real data is about unemployment vs tax payers, so pretty hard to negotiate with them.

 

[kateg]

For some looking for LMIA based roles, if you are good in multicore network processor software (Broadcom, Cavium, Intel DPDK et al), Network virtualization or SDN, my employer has been posting adds and interviewing for years. We find people on an off across the world but have open positions all the time. Shoot me a message please.

If anyone's really, really good with Symfony, feel free to send me a message as well.

 

[Dennia]

Kateg,

Once again it is great to know more abt u. My argument on LMIA is not fr people like u,who really deserve it. I m trying to bring out the point tht LMIA not always is the best way to move forward, CIC shld also look at something fr international students(fr only those who really deserve it).

I suffered the same issue as FBack54 when counting my job experience,1 yr of consultant experience during my education term ,1yr co-op experience(considered a part of education) ,3yrs of part-time experience(off-campus permit). None of my experience before getting my PGWP is considered valid in according to CIC.

In regards to your point on International Fees, check this out(page21),http://www.georgiancollege.ca/wp-content/uploads/bog-2013-14-Business-Plan-Georgian-College.pdf. We cannot debate based on one specific college,no.of international students varies from college to college and certain colleges give more importance to International students. For this college 4% of the total revenue stream is frm international fees and 2% local. When we r doing this we should not ignore other revenue streams like co-ops,boardingfees(mostly done by international or out of province students),technological fees,student improvement fees and so on. Tution is just a small part (when we add up all the fees international students contribute on tht a big piece of pie (Example Fees I paid as an International student per semester(2010,aviation management), boarding not included : 6400CAD, A local student paid 2200. We had 15 international students in a class).

I don't ask an employer to trust me - I have the code samples, the verifiable history, and I make a simple offer. I'll volunteer two weeks for free. If they like what I do, hire and pay me. If not, they lose nothing.I don't need trust, just an opportunity.- As an international Entry level Grad I was also willing to voluteer fr free fr an entire a year,just fr the exposure and the oppurtunity (in my industry all my contacts volunteered in paying me .Even just as a student, when I didnt prove nothin in the industry, Kelowna Airport was willing to give me a consultant oportunity looking at my performance in my co-op term). But the issue with LMIA is not everyone who gets an LMIA are willing to do free jobs to prove their skills (A job offer to many international candidates are given based on their resume and skype chat or phone chat,some desreve it and some dont. Few after coming to Canada can switch carrers or simply decide not to work, which kills the reason fr LMIA). In case of on an International Grad they can prove their skills during their PGWP period and the employer has the option to make a calculative decision (Better economic growth fr Canadian economy),so a permanent Job offer fr an International Grad should fetch them more points without an LMIA.

I really love the debate,i m havin with u and I m learnin a lot. I m open fr heated conforntation buddy.

 

[kateg]

Why do you use "fr" instead of for? It makes it a bit more difficult to read.

 

[Dennia]

• • Kateg- Thats my texting format (FOR-fr) .
    
    fkl- I m very happy to see people like fkl,revealing jobs that can get u an LMIA. I would like to apologize on behalf of the member who made abt fake degree and ur country, this happens everywhere,including Canada
    
    Lastly, with no disrespect intended, but I certainly don't consider just a Canadian degree making some one equally worthy of ITA - compared to LMIAs. Because LMIAs also get people like us, which are far better educated, experienced and proven in their domain of expertise. Some thing those with only a degree will take time to attain- We r not debating on just whether a Canadian degree makes someone worthy enough to get an ITA,but an International Graduate
    -who took the risk of coming to Canada at a young age
  -got adapted to canadian culture,
  -improved their skills based on Canadian standards and practices
  -Got Canadian education
  -Contributed to Canadian economy
  -Has a valid job offer
  
  Do these kind of people also need to complete a LMIA for their job offer? They shld be given some kind of perk in order to be competative.
  

 

[kateg]

I m trying to bring out the point tht LMIA not always is the best way to move forward, CIC shld also look at something fr international students(fr only those who really deserve it).

I respect your opinion, but I disagree (as apparently the people who do EE do). International students already get quite a few advantages, but they have to meet the overall qualifications, just like everyone else. When it comes to CRS, everyone is scored against the same rules. If Canada is looking for the “best and the brightest”, should they not take them from wherever they are? Why should Canada reject a well-qualified foreigner for a less-qualified graduate?

We cannot debate based on one specific college,no.of international students varies from college to college and certain colleges give more importance to International students. For this college 4% of the total revenue stream is frm international fees and 2% local.

The shortfall is made up elsewhere for local students. Looking at the sheet you mentioned, the international department accounted for 4.7 million dollars of net revenue. They have 171,859,344 million dollars worth of expenses. Cutting 4.7 million out of that comes out to around 3%. That’s certainly a cut, but not enough to cause significant damage to the education of the existing students.

But the issue with LMIA is not everyone who gets an LMIA are willing to do free jobs to prove their skills (A job offer to many international candidates are given based on their resume and skype chat or phone chat,some desreve it and some dont

That’s what good interview skills are for. A good resume and a good interview go a very, very long way.

 

[FBack54]

I'm enjoying this debate too. My opinion:

International graduates who have been successful at securing full-time permanent (not technically accurate, I know) jobs (not offers) for atleast a year while on their PGWPs should be treated equally, if not close to equally, as those that have LMIAs.

I made a distinction between those having a job offer and those that have held a job for a year because they indicate two different things. Just having a job offer means a candidate were the best candidate on paper based off of their interview and resume (assuming it was an equitable hiring process). It says nothing about their ability to succeed in the job. My work contract clearly states a 3-month probationary period for exactly this reason. If I was faking my qualifications, it would be very evident within the first 3 months.

On the other hand, if a PGWP holder has succeeded in being offered a job and has held that job for a year, then what more do you need from them to demonstrate that they are a good fit in Canada economic system? They were competitive with the domestic applicant pool and their employer STILL has them onboard....Doesn't fair competition lead to/promote hire quality anyways?

What do you guys think?

 

[Dennia]

If Canada is looking for the “best and the brightest”, should they not take them from wherever they are? Why should Canada reject a well-qualified foreigner for a less-qualified graduate? - I am only debating on Grads who have good education qualification and exposure in the field, with fewer work experience after completing their education in Canada. It also depends on how an employer considers a person to be well-qualified (A foreigner with 15yrs of work experience in Aviation,with no knowledge on Canadian transportation standards in useless fr a Canadian employer,but if this candidate is clever enough to fake his resume will all the job requirements and also learn abt stuffs tht is required fr the interview, an employer might bring him to Canada with LMIA and then be screwed when he/she is left in the field to handle things alone,which might cause major aviation regulation issues. This is highly specific to different industries (Medical,transportation,construction and so on).LMIA specific to certain NOC and other job offers considered based on a candidate education in Canada makes more sense

International students already get quite a few advantages - Partially true. Only real perk is ur Canadian work experience after getting a PGWP, and an international student gets some extra points on education,if they are doing their Matsers or PhD or second graduation (A foreign worker with a Phd or masters will get the same points,just like an international grad after WES evaluation through EE). There will be no debate if the so called advantages were enough fr an International Grad to get an ITA (All these well qualified grads with a valid job offer but no LMIA,fewer yrs of experience and Canadian education credentials fall between the range of 400-450 CRS, so without a PNP or LMIA all their hardwork & contribution to the canadian economy is not rewarded,but discouraged)

 

[Dennia]

Ur absolutely correct FBack54. wht is CIC expecting frm us? We successfully graduated, have a valid job and 1 yr experience. Doesn't this prove a lot of how we can contribute to the economy in the future.

 

[kateg]

I could see taking an approach like that. There's still the matter of competitiveness (versus foreign applicants), and competition (vs Canadians), but it would be lessened.

I guess it depends on how the candidates are approached. If one looks just at Canadian vs Foreign, then the hierarchy would go high-skilled Canadian > low-skilled Canadian > high-skilled foreigner > low-skilled foreigner. This is the approach EE takes.

If you consider a graduate to be "Canadian Light", then it makes some degree of sense to prioritize them.

Coming from the US, I've seen some people who would assimilate absolutely fine. Living and working in Seattle is only slightly different from living and working in Vancouver.

By the same token, I have also seen quite a few students who, quite frankly, don't assimilate well at all. The language barrier in particular made it difficult to work with them, and they avoided English wherever possible.

It seems silly to me to give prioritize someone barely qualified over someone rather qualified, even if the barely qualified person happens to be living in Canada. It also kind of defeats the purpose of having economic immigration categories in the first place. If people can just bypass the FSW rules by taking a year of college in Canada, what's the point in having the FSW points system in the first place?

To me, it seems more like it was a backdoor way to skirt the rules designed to pick qualified candidates.

Canada is significantly more selective about it's work permits than it's study permits, for good reason. Students pay their own way, but workers affect the labour market.

When a study permit gets an automatic unrestricted work permit, and priority for immigration, it takes slots away from people who are doing the economic program, people who are coming in to work and being honest about it. Study permits have much lower qualifications than work permits, so if we prioritize people based on studying, we undermine the value (and selectivity) of Canadian Permanent Residence.

CRS scores help bring some balance back - no longer rewarding someone for simply sitting at a desk and passing some classes. The points system itself can use some tweaks (particularly with regards to continuous employment), but as it stands, students are treated equally. There is no benefit to having a degree in something that helps make Canada competitive versus easy "fluff" classes. Now that graduates have to actually find a job (and work in it for a while) to qualify for CEC, Candidates are more likely to have useful skills before they are eligible.

This still doesn't address people who have family connections (making it easy to get work experience), but it's a step in the right direction.