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Conditional Visa's - It's Happening!

rjessome

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suva said:
If it comes into force then they wont give PR visa in first place they will just give a conditional 2 yr visa. So it will be faster. In UK and USA and Australia they give it in just 2/3 months. of course to get the complete PR you gotta wait 2 yrs or so but at least u could see your family in few months. So i am with it.
It is a conditional PR visa and will have all of the same rights (so far as we know) as a regular PR except conditions must be removed after 2 years by meeting some yet to be established method. Nowhere did it say in the Gazette that there would be any faster processing. This is Canada, not the US, UK or Australia. There is no reason to believe that processing times would be faster. The original conditions of obtaining PR under the Act remain the same (bona fide relationship, not entered into to gain status under the Act, medically and criminally admissible). This proposed law is meant to deter and remedy problems of marriage fraud that escape the notice of the visa officer OR the sponsor, NOT to speed up processing times.

Since none of the checks and balances are going to be removed when assessing applications, how would processing times decrease? If that is your sole reason for supporting this legislation, the in my humble opinion, you are counting on something that has never been promised or even hinted at. You realize that each department within this government must cut its' spending by 5%, including CIC. That in itself worries me that there will be increased processing times across the board for all applications, not a reduction. Less money means less manpower. We will see.
 

Baloo

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There have been comments on the cuts already.
Even though the financial cuts will be IRO 5%, I think we will be looking at more than a 5% slowdown.

Key point there - "This is Canada" :)
 

jaskp1

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Baloo said:
There have been comments on the cuts already.
Even though the financial cuts will be IRO 5%, I think we will be looking at more than a 5% slowdown.

Key point there - "This is Canada" :)
have they started issuing conditional visas yet???? i'm to receive my passport in 4 days... should i be expecting a conditional visa??
 

medellinguy

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jaskp1 said:
have they started issuing conditional visas yet???? i'm to receive my passport in 4 days... should i be expecting a conditional visa??
no
 

toby

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rjessome said:
Nowhere did it say in the Gazette that there would be any faster processing. This is Canada, not the US, UK or Australia. There is no reason to believe that processing times would be faster.
True, faster processing is not a stated aim of the conditional-visa system, but the similar fiancé visa in the USA is apparently processed faster than the current spousal visa in Canada, despite the fact that the USA thinks it has more reason to fear fraudulent visas than Canada does (the USA being still the premier destination of emigrants). So, how to account for the faster visa processing in the USA than in Canada?

Is it due to the supposedly greater innate cautiousness of the Canadian versus the American? Or is it due to the reluctance of a Canadian VO to award a spousal visa outright (the current system), and then watch helplessly if the visa applicant turns out to be a fraudster, and leaves the Canadian sponsor at the airport, or soon after?

If the pressure to make correct, final decisions causes the VO to analyze questionable applications more extensively, taking more time, then by adding recourse (removing the condition or the PR after two years) CIC reduces that pressure somewhat, and might allow the VO to grant a conditional visa to a “questionable” applicant after a reasonable (rather than the currently-excessive) amount of analysis.

By “questionable” applicant I mean one whose documentation is not absolutely conclusive; I don’t mean the VO should give visas to disreputable applicants.

One obvious way that the conditional visa would save time is with interviews. In some interviews the VO tries to “get a feel for” applicants whose documentation is not quite conclusive. Yet I hear of interviews that were unnecessary, over in ten minutes. This suggests that the VO who analyzed the documentation was almost – but not quite – ready to approve a visa. So, not being absolutely certain, the document-VO defers to the interview-VO (a different person) to make the final decision. This takes extra time.

If it weren’t so critical to be absolutely certain, the document-VO could have awarded a conditional visa, knowing that two years will probably test genuine intent much better than documents could. This would have saved CIC the time spent on the interview. How significant this time saving will be only time will tell, but I live in hope.

I know, there are holes in the conditional-visa system; there are in the current system too. Let’s not let the imperfections blind us to the benefits of the conditional-visa system.
 

rjessome

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toby said:
True, faster processing is not a stated aim of the conditional-visa system, but the similar fiancé visa in the USA is apparently processed faster than the current spousal visa in Canada, despite the fact that the USA thinks it has more reason to fear fraudulent visas than Canada does (the USA being still the premier destination of emigrants). So, how to account for the faster visa processing in the USA than in Canada?
This is not similar to the fiance visa issued in the US at all. Here is the link to the information about this type of visa for the USA. http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=640a3e4d77d73210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=640a3e4d77d73210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

It is a NON-immigrant visa wherein the couple must marry within 90 days of the applicant arriving in the US. The conditional PR visa that Canada is contemplating IS an immigrant visa. Big difference. Only after admission to the US can the applicant apply for a permit to work or study whereas in Canada, applicants are eligible to work and study upon landing. Also, in the US the sponsor MUST meet minimum income guidelines to be eligible. All US residents are NOT created equal as the fiance visa is ONLY applicable to applicants planning to marry a US CITIZEN. Permanent residents (green card holders) are NOT eligible to apply to sponsor an applicant for this visa. Canada had fiance visas pre IRPA and got rid of it because of too much fraud. So this is comparing apples to oranges.

Also, the US is no longer the premier destination for immigrants. The top choices now are Canada, Australia and Denmark.

You may be right about one thing. The visa offices may pass the buck on questionable applicants to whomever will be responsible within the immigration system in Canada for overseeing this new function, if it ever comes to pass. I can see the bad press now that this will generate as the intention of the legislation is to NOT do this. Part of the issue that has been agreed upon over and over again is that once an applicant gets to Canada, it's very difficult to remove them. The question of whether or not the applicant will have the right of appeal of a removal decision is also left open. Currently PRs who have been ordered to be removed DO have this right.

My only point here is whether or not this legislation (if enacted) will speed up processing times. I don't think it will as it was never the intention of it. My views on whether or not to support it are well known so I'm not commenting on that.
 

Baloo

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rjessome said:
Also, the US is no longer the premier destination for immigrants. The top choices now are Canada, Australia and Denmark.
We see evidence of that on a regular basis.
Note the queue of Americans wanting Canadian permanent resident status.
 

toby

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Rjessome:

Either I am not expressing myself very clearly, or you are missing the forest for the trees. Sometimes when one gets too expert/immersed in the details, the big picture gets blurred (or at least the big picture that I was painting).

My point is that:
• the two-year condition reduces pressure on the VO, allowing him/her to be almost right rather than be perfectly right;
• this reduced pressure encourages him/her to make a reasonable decision about the visa rather than deferring to the interview officer;
• and thus the process speeds up.

That is the logic; rebut it by all means, but you have introduced distinctions that don't bear on this logic at all --as far as I can see. Considerations like "when can the immigrant work?", "does the immigrant have to marry a citizen or can he/she be a resident?", "is there a minimum income guideline?" have nothing to do with the point about greater speed.

Your posts are often right on, so if I’ve missed your logic, I am eager to be informed.
 

Baloo

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toby said:
My point is that:
• the two-year condition reduces pressure on the VO, allowing him/her to be almost right rather than be perfectly right;
• this reduced pressure encourages him/her to make a reasonable decision about the visa rather than deferring to the interview officer;
• and thus the process speeds up.

The key issue in the news right now is, those immigrants who are not admissible or who have committed crimes (MOC or others) are very difficult to remove.
The proposed conditional visa process is trying to address a part of that problem.

There would be no reduction of pressure on the VO, they will still be instructed to do their job as they do now.
So following your logic, if there is no reduction in pressure the process won't speed up.

My view is that it does not matter if this is implemented, the cuts that Canada is implementing will end up slowing the whole immigration process.
Canadian media suggests that many Canadians want a tougher line on immigration, not an easier path for immigrants.
The government knows this, and it seems they are happy for the cuts to slow the process.
 

rjessome

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toby said:
Rjessome:

Either I am not expressing myself very clearly, or you are missing the forest for the trees. Sometimes when one gets too expert/immersed in the details, the big picture gets blurred (or at least the big picture that I was painting).

My point is that:
• the two-year condition reduces pressure on the VO, allowing him/her to be almost right rather than be perfectly right;
• this reduced pressure encourages him/her to make a reasonable decision about the visa rather than deferring to the interview officer;
• and thus the process speeds up.

That is the logic; rebut it by all means, but you have introduced distinctions that don't bear on this logic at all --as far as I can see. Considerations like "when can the immigrant work?", "does the immigrant have to marry a citizen or can he/she be a resident?", "is there a minimum income guideline?" have nothing to do with the point about greater speed.

Your posts are often right on, so if I've missed your logic, I am eager to be informed.
Totally possible that I'm missing your point. Another post annoyed me to no end today and I could have lost my ability to focus! ;)

So regarding your points:
1, 2 and 3 - I think I said you could be right about that. My point is that you are not supposed to be right about it. :) The language in the proposed legislation does not allow for this. But human nature being what it is, again, you could be right.

I was responding to your statement that the US fiance visa was "similar" to this proposed type of visa. And I was also trying to ensure that other readers of these posts are informed about what exactly is entailed in a US fiance visa. There have been others posting that they are hoping that it models the US, UK and Australia. So a lot of what I wrote wasn't written in direct response, just more of a general comment.

And another general comment, I hope this proposed legislation is significantly re-worked if it is to become law. It would be great if it's purpose was at least partly to reduce processing times for this class of applicants. So I'm being literal in my interpretation of what I've read. Like you, I waited a REALLY long time. But if you read what was posted in the Gazette, it leaves one wondering (or at least me) how large the Canadian contingent of this "operation" would be (manpower), their scope of powers and responsibilities, and the methods they will employ to remove conditions. And how they are going to pay for this really puzzles me with this 5% cutback they have to put into place this year and continuing until the deficit is gone. Since they won't add jobs, are they going to give inland officers more responsibilities? Will they move some overseas officers back to Canada? That reduces staffing in the missions outside of Canada leaving the same or more work for less people. There is really SO much left to be answered!

But here's a question for you. Let's say you are right, that this will decrease processing times for applicants because the VO's at the overseas missions will pass the buck to the inland officers to deal with. What about those applicants who are NOT subject to the conditional PR visas? The proposed legislation says this will only be applicable to applicants married or living together for less than 2 years. So will they create a 2 tiered system of assessment? I guess they must anyway because it would be two different visas being issued. And in my experience, those that have been married or living together for a significant period of time are not usually subject to the lengthy delays anyway so it may be a moot point.

So sorry if I didn't "get" you right away. I hope I have now.
 

toby

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rjessome said:
Totally possible that I'm missing your point. Another post annoyed me to no end today and I could have lost my ability to focus! ;)

So regarding your points:
1, 2 and 3 - I think I said you could be right about that. My point is that you are not supposed to be right about it. :) The language in the proposed legislation does not allow for this. But human nature being what it is, again, you could be right.

I was responding to your statement that the US fiance visa was "similar" to this proposed type of visa. And I was also trying to ensure that other readers of these posts are informed about what exactly is entailed in a US fiance visa. There have been others posting that they are hoping that it models the US, UK and Australia. So a lot of what I wrote wasn't written in direct response, just more of a general comment. OK; worth doing.

And another general comment, I hope this proposed legislation is significantly re-worked if it is to become law. It would be great if it's purpose was at least partly to reduce processing times for this class of applicants. So I'm being literal in my interpretation of what I've read. Like you, I waited a REALLY long time. But if you read what was posted in the Gazette, it leaves one wondering (or at least me) how large the Canadian contingent of this "operation" would be (manpower), their scope of powers and responsibilities, and the methods they will employ to remove conditions. And how they are going to pay for this really puzzles me with this 5% cutback they have to put into place this year and continuing until the deficit is gone.

Right: the cuts will tend to slow the process down, which is why I hope that the conditional 2-years will have the effect of speeding up the VOs' decision-making process. However, Baloo points out that the voting public is more concerned with bad people getting into Canada, and so the VOs may well find themselves under equal pressure. That is, back to the slow process. :mad:


Since they won't add jobs, are they going to give inland officers more responsibilities? Will they move some overseas officers back to Canada? That reduces staffing in the missions outside of Canada leaving the same or more work for less people. There is really SO much left to be answered!

But here's a question for you. Let's say you are right, that this will decrease processing times for applicants because the VO's at the overseas missions will pass the buck to the inland officers to deal with. What about those applicants who are NOT subject to the conditional PR visas? The proposed legislation says this will only be applicable to applicants married or living together for less than 2 years. So will they create a 2 tiered system of assessment? I guess they must anyway because it would be two different visas being issued. And in my experience, those that have been married or living together for a significant period of time are not usually subject to the lengthy delays anyway so it may be a moot point.

So sorry if I didn't "get" you right away. I hope I have now.

Yes, we're on the same page. Only one small clarification: with less pressure on them, I hope the VOs will make more decisions themselves, and not "pass the buck" to the interview VO. When you refer to inland VOs getting the buck passed to them, if you mean that the inland VOs must make the final decision -- to remove the condition and make the visa permanent, or not -- then I understand your phraseology.

Sometimes discussion by Internet is arduous, is it not? It does not allow timely clarification and correction, so participants go off on tangents, until corrections are made belatedly.





, not pass the buck to anyone else -- unless by "pass teh buck" you mean that the final approval/rejection will rest t=with VOs in Canada who must review the marriage and then decide whether to waive the condition.dl make more decisions, quicker.
 

toby

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Baloo said:
The key issue in the news right now is, those immigrants who are not admissible or who have committed crimes (MOC or others) are very difficult to remove.
The proposed conditional visa process is trying to address a part of that problem.
Baloo: if miscreant (yes, "miscreant!" ;D) immigrants are difficult to remove from Canada, how does the conditional visa alleviate this problem? It still lets them into Canada for a 2-year trial period.
 

Baloo

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toby said:
Baloo: if miscreant (yes, "miscreant!" ;D) immigrants are difficult to remove from Canada, how does the conditional visa alleviate this problem? It still lets them into Canada for a 2-year trial period.
The visa does not, but proposed changes in process would.
 

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How, though? Are they planning to drop all the recourses to appeals that currently are in effect for PRs in the case of Conditional PRs?

Every time I read on CanLII, I end up shaking my head at some of these cases. I read one refugee claim case where the "miscreant" (to borrow toby's word) bluntly told CBSA officers he would refuse to participate in any proceedings that might lead to his removal from Canada, he had no intention of leaving Canada no matter what the court found in his case, and he would resist any attempts to remove him. In a case like that, with statements to that effect before the RPD, the honourable judge released him on terms! Really?! The Minister had to bring a request for judicial review of the decision to allow his release, which I am happy to say was allowed. Mind you, now that the judicial review has been allowed, it only means the case is up for re-determination, it doesn't mean anyone is actually removing this failed (and fraudulent) refugee claimant!

Everyone already seems to know how hard it is for Canada to remove persons once they are already in the country, regardless of their actual status. And there are quite a lot of persons prepared to take advantage of that. I don't see how conditional PR makes it any easier to remove people unless they actually plan to enforce any such terms in the regulation.

I even had someone (a Canadian citizen, no less) encourage me to "Sneak across the US border and come be with your husband. Once you're here, no-one will really care." I kid you not. It isn't just PRs who realise how hard it is for them to get someone out, no matter how egregious the error or fraud that got them in in the first place. Enforcement of removal procedures appears to be so lackadaisical, some have given up on it, and others think it is just another loophole for staying.
 

Baloo

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CharlieD10 said:
How, though? Are they planning to drop all the recourses to appeals that currently are in effect for PRs in the case of Conditional PRs?
..
There has been discussion on dropping some, not all.

Like you I read CanLII, the problem is, it makes me mad at the system.