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Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship

piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
Yes the family reunification people contacted all the media organizations but their protests have not resulted in any changes yet so very hard to say that it has been effective.
Why are you so affirmative? ... You seem persuaded and sure of your words. What is this certainty based on?

There has already been the television report, articles on cbc and on other major anglophone and francophone media in the country.

The IRCC ministry responded. The protesters managed to get their attention and get them to react, didn't they? ... Now whether this is effective or not, no one can answer for sure, it's relative ...

But on the other hand, I'm sure about one thing: Maintaining constant pressure (by legal and legitimate ways) is much better than doing nothing.

It's all about '' balance of powers ''.
 

piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
So, again to be clear, there is NO need to fear that the Canadian government will not reasonably proceed with the grant citizenship process. So, to advocate proactive engagement to encourage the Canadian government be more zealous and diligent, sure, that is OK, not really needed but OK. But it is NOT OK to spread fear and cause unnecessary anxiety.​
Unnecessary anxiety? ... It's your judgment. I respect your right to have this perception, but I regret, with all due respect to you, to tell you that I totally disagree.

Anxiety and fear are normal human feelings. You can't forbid people to have them ... It's ok to be scared and anxious if I feel the situation deserves it. It may even be good to cry a few times for relief - words from psychologists, not from me! -.

Then, who said overzealousness? ... We simply ask for the restart of an administrative procedure ... Procedure which means a lot. This is not trivial. It is an important and precious moment in a life ... Acquiring a nationality has a lot of emotional charge. It is an emotional and important moment, not a 'nonessential procedure that can wait'.

Also, to respond to other reactions here, I would like to say this: For all those who talk about the impossibility of avoiding cheating in online tests (I will not even mention the pre-existence of a suspicion going in the sense that "foreigners cheat!", which in itself reinforces the prejudices against foreigners ... but let's go), I had planned that! ... I knew it, and I saw it coming: I knew that negative people were going to intervene to discourage us, and deliver a speech of defeat (no need to waste time doing actions, because it is doomed to failure !, etc)
I suspected that it was going to happen ... This is why in my initial presentation I said that it was necessary to ask not only for online tests, but also for tests in person ... necessary physical distancing and health security measures. (masks, hand gel, distances).

I digress ... I return to fear and anxiety ...

BUT I am very confident that even if there is little or no pressure, the Canadian government will be pursuing efforts to resume all aspects of grant citizenship application processing.

AND I think this is IMPORTANT because most of those with applications pending deserve to be reassured that the Canadian government will NOT forget them, will NOT unreasonably ignore their applications, but rather even if citizenship applicants do nothing to pressure the government, the government will take reasonable steps to get application processing back in gear and deal with applications for a grant of citizenship. Yes, it will take longer now. It appears that it could be quite a bit longer.
You provide a happy ending scenario, or the outcome of the proceeding will take 'a little longer'. I do not doubt your good faith, you are certainly a good person .... But understand us: it remains within the realm of the possible, a probability ...

What do you say rather about this scenario (which I do not wish, of course, but which remains entirely possible, not science fiction).

The We Charity scandal ('' Unis ''in French) continues to embarrass the Trudeau minority government ... Government which ends up falling due to pressure from the opposition. The Liberal minority government falls. = New Conservative government, but with a majority this time = Scheer's replacement hastens to pass a more restrictive immigration law = The new Conservative immigration minister for his part decides that all new citizenship applications will no longer be accepted at reception. And the requests already received will remain on stand-by until further notice (i.e. more years of waiting), to focus on emergencies due to the economic and health consequences of the Covid = The right wing ( electorate) of the Conservative Party applauds and welcomes the `` sense of priorities '' of the new government in place ...

I may be exaggerating a little bit ... But this kind of horror scenario is quite possible, it is not totally impossible.

And if we get there, it may be too late to go out and demonstrate or do other types of actions.
 

duckduckgoose

Star Member
Jul 4, 2020
59
29
Is this WE Charity scandal really that serious? I see Justin staying in power unless the NDP decide to remove their confidence. He managed to sruvive the previous 2 scandals. Will be interesting to see who ends up winning the Conservative leadership election. Slightly off topic sorry.
 

piotrqc

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2020
391
451
Most applicants often forget that it is a PRIVILEGE to be granted citizenship not a RIGHT. Let that sink into you. Please follow less confrontational means to convey your message.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html


Fundamental Freedoms
Marginal note:Fundamental freedoms
2.
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

  • (a) freedom of conscience and religion;
  • (b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
  • (c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
  • (d) freedom of association.
 

fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
375
253
The We Charity scandal ('' Unis ''in French) continues to embarrass the Trudeau minority government ... Government which ends up falling due to pressure from the opposition. The Liberal minority government falls. = New Conservative government, but with a majority this time = Scheer's replacement hastens to pass a more restrictive immigration law = The new Conservative immigration minister for his part decides that all new citizenship applications will no longer be accepted at reception. And the requests already received will remain on stand-by until further notice (i.e. more years of waiting), to focus on emergencies due to the economic and health consequences of the Covid = The right wing ( electorate) of the Conservative Party applauds and welcomes the `` sense of priorities '' of the new government in place ...

I may be exaggerating a little bit ... But this kind of horror scenario is quite possible, it is not totally impossible.

And if we get there, it may be too late to go out and demonstrate or do other types of actions.
This is completely possible. Conservatives will attack immigrants at the first chance they get. You can see this even in the attitude of conservative members of this forum. According to them, all immigrants are just itching to cheat and game the system. Every 2nd post by such members is about how to prevent cheating. Cheat, cheat, cheat is all they think of when they think of immigrants (other than themselves of course).
 

fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
375
253
Is this WE Charity scandal really that serious? I see Justin staying in power unless the NDP decide to remove their confidence. He managed to sruvive the previous 2 scandals. Will be interesting to see who ends up winning the Conservative leadership election. Slightly off topic sorry.
It doesn't matter who wins the Conservative election, they all hate immigrants. They are itching to get back to 2 tier citizenship.
 
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ajithj

Hero Member
May 1, 2015
405
146
Canada
Category........
CEC
Visa Office......
Ottawa
NOC Code......
2173
App. Filed.......
2017-Mar
AOR Received.
2017-Mar
Med's Request
Upfront
Med's Done....
2017-Mar
Passport Req..
2017-May
LANDED..........
2017-Jun
Kathleen Harris from CBC News is working on a story about citizenship fee elimination (saw it in a FB post). May be she can help with this citizenship test issue too.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,282
3,042
I had no intention of wandering into the weeds regarding the particular measures IRCC should adopt in the current situation. And I still don't. NOT worth it. We do not know anywhere near enough about what IRCC is actually doing to second-guess its ongoing response to Covid-19.

Albeit slowly, it appears IRCC is actively engaged in addressing the situation with an agenda to restore application processing. There are no indicators suggesting cause to doubt the integrity, ability, or intentions of those in the government pursuing these efforts, let alone to suggest that the government is not engaged in such efforts. There is no cause to second-guess what IRCC is doing.

In particular, there is NO reason to believe that IRCC will fail to take appropriate, reasonable steps to proceed with grant citizenship applications.

Those who have a grant citizenship application in process, or who will be submitting an application in the near future, have NO REASON to WORRY about this. Which, again, is not to overlook the fact that the process is going to take longer now. Yes, it will take longer.

And to be clear, the point of my observations is not to discourage those who will engage in activist measures; for those inclined to "mobilize today before tomorrow," and to "make noise, protest, and demand solutions . . . " Have at it. Recruit your Sancho Panza and pick your windmills.

But pretending to not incite undue, exaggerated fear, while banging "horror scenario" drums, will NOT fly without some push back. Not here. This forum has many functions, ranging from a place to share or vent even, to a place where immigrants make an effort to help one another. Unfortunately, like similar venues, it is vulnerable to exaggerations, distortions, misinformation, and sometimes outright fear-mongering.

Let's be clear. And honest.

As I have said, YES, the process will go longer now. Duh! Not because of incompetence, deliberate disregard, or malfeasance. Not due to the influence of hostility toward immigrants. But because there is a global pandemic happening, the worst of it looming large within 200k of the vast majority of Canadians, and IRCC is a large bureaucracy . . . remembering, bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does . . . which rarely suggests doing anything quickly and definitely does not suggest rapid adaptation.

In contrast, for example, despite claims otherwise (asserting "with all due respect to you . . . "), @piotrqc deliberately misstates what I say:
You provide a happy ending scenario, or the outcome of the proceeding will take 'a little longer'.
No, I never said the "outcome of the proceeding will take'a little longer'." Actually I said "Yes, it will take longer now. It appears that it could be quite a bit longer."
AND I think this is IMPORTANT because most of those with applications pending deserve to be reassured that the Canadian government will NOT forget them, will NOT unreasonably ignore their applications . . . the government will take reasonable steps to get application processing back in gear and deal with applications for a grant of citizenship. Yes, it will take longer now. It appears that it could be quite a bit longer.
Is this difference a big deal? So what @piotrqc misquotes, twists words . . . is this twisting words just a little?

Consider another disclaimer @piotrqc asserts: "I do not want to be pessimistic and scare you to the extreme . . . "
I do not want to be pessimistic and scare you to the extreme, but I must remind you . . .
Yeah, there's a "but."

No particular emphasis on the "BUT" in this, BUT what followed that "but" conflates the current situation, adapting procedures during and in the wake of a global pandemic, with the threat of a major upheaval in government implementing draconian anti-immigrant policies and AS IF this would threaten the processing of those who have already qualified for and made an application for citizenship. Regarding which @piotrqc asserts "Everything I have said is not science fiction, it is very likely and very possible!" Again, AS IF even those who have already qualified for and made an application for citizenship are at risk. A very likely risk.

The current situation is about a process that is bogged down due to the difficulty a huge bureaucracy is having dealing with procedures which for decades have involved an intensive in-person and person-to-person process, for fairly large groups of people at a time, and more recently which typically has involved around TWO HUNDRED thousand individuals year-to-year, year-in and year-out. This is real. There are problems. There are difficulties. There are people in the government tasked with addressing the problems, the difficulties.

To conflate the current situation with the prospect of a draconian shift in government toward stripping immigrants of their rights is more than exaggerating, let alone more than "exaggerating a little bit."

Sure, a shift resulting in a Conservative government will not favour immigration or immigrants. That much is true. I will for-sure participate and do what I can, personally, to oppose the Conservatives returning to power. For lots of reasons.

But to suggest that it is "very likely" there is going to be any shift in the Canadian government, anytime in the foreseeable future, that would result in changes in the law that rendered currently qualified citizenship applicants no longer qualified is FAR-FETCHED. That would in effect take away citizenship from those who are qualified and already have an application in process. NO. That is NOT in the realm of any practical possibility let alone at all likely. And to suggest otherwise is indeed extreme. Not even the Harper-Perrin-Kenney-Alexander government's most draconian measures, which were draconian enough to hand the Conservatives their worst defeat in a long time in the next election, so much as bore a whiff of such extreme measures.

But apart from that, there is such a huge, huge gap between the one and the other, there is no cause to believe mobilizing protests about how long it is taking IRCC to proceed with testing and interviewing citizenship applicants would be, in any way, activism against or preventing a future election leading to a Conservative government that is less friendly to immigrants. The two simply are NOT related enough.

Which brings this back to banging the "horror scenario" drums about the potential influence of those who are "hostile to immigration" . . .

Unnecessary anxiety? ... It's your judgment. I respect your right to have this perception, but I regret, with all due respect to you, to tell you that I totally disagree.

Anxiety and fear are normal human feelings. You can't forbid people to have them ... It's ok to be scared and anxious if I feel the situation deserves it.
It is precisely the latter, the extent to which anxiety and fear are normal, which concerns me when exaggerated nightmare scenarios are cited as reason to emphasize, in bold and underline . . .

We must mobilize today before tomorrow:
It bothers me when people's normal fears and anxieties are exploited and abused.

Again, NO, those who have a citizenship application in process, who know they are qualified, and who come to this forum looking for information and guidance, do NOT need to apprehend the Canadian government might fail to process their citizenship application. It will get done. Regardless who or why or how many carry signs and make noise in the streets of Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, or elsewhere in Canada.
 
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Cassiano

Hero Member
Dec 4, 2017
289
78
I had no intention of wandering into the weeds regarding the particular measures IRCC should adopt in the current situation. And I still don't. NOT worth it. We do not know anywhere near enough about what IRCC is actually doing to second-guess its ongoing response to Covid-19.

Albeit slowly, it appears IRCC is actively engaged in addressing the situation with an agenda to restore application processing. There are no indicators suggesting cause to doubt the integrity, ability, or intentions of those in the government pursuing these efforts, let alone to suggest that the government is not engaged in such efforts. There is no cause to second-guess what IRCC is doing.

In particular, there is NO reason to believe that IRCC will fail to take appropriate, reasonable steps to proceed with grant citizenship applications.

Those who have a grant citizenship application in process, or who will be submitting an application in the near future, have NO REASON to WORRY about this. Which, again, is not to overlook the fact that the process is going to take longer now. Yes, it will take longer.

And to be clear, the point of my observations is not to discourage those who will engage in activist measures; for those inclined to "mobilize today before tomorrow," and to "make noise, protest, and demand solutions . . . " Have at it. Recruit your Sancho Panza and pick your windmills.

But pretending to not incite undue, exaggerated fear, while banging "horror scenario" drums, will NOT fly without some push back. Not here. This forum has many functions, ranging from a place to share or vent even, to a place where immigrants make an effort to help one another. Unfortunately, like similar venues, it is vulnerable to exaggerations, distortions, misinformation, and sometimes outright fear-mongering.

Let's be clear. And honest.

As I have said, YES, the process will go longer now. Duh! Not because of incompetence, deliberate disregard, or malfeasance. Not due to the influence of hostility toward immigrants. But because there is a global pandemic happening, the worst of it looming large within 200k of the vast majority of Canadians, and IRCC is a large bureaucracy . . . remembering, bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does . . . which rarely suggests doing anything quickly and definitely does not suggest rapid adaptation.

In contrast, for example, despite claims otherwise (asserting "with all due respect to you . . . "), @piotrqc deliberately misstates what I say:


No, I never said the "outcome of the proceeding will take'a little longer'." Actually I said "Yes, it will take longer now. It appears that it could be quite a bit longer."


Is this difference a big deal? So what @piotrqc misquotes, twists words . . . is this twisting words just a little?

Consider another disclaimer @piotrqc asserts: "I do not want to be pessimistic and scare you to the extreme . . . "


Yeah, there's a "but."

No particular emphasis on the "BUT" in this, BUT what followed that "but" conflates the current situation, adapting procedures during and in the wake of a global pandemic, with the threat of a major upheaval in government implementing draconian anti-immigrant policies and AS IF this would threaten the processing of those who have already qualified for and made an application for citizenship. Regarding which @piotrqc asserts "Everything I have said is not science fiction, it is very likely and very possible!" Again, AS IF even those who have already qualified for and made an application for citizenship are at risk. A very likely risk.

The current situation is about a process that is bogged down due to the difficulty a huge bureaucracy is having dealing with procedures which for decades have involved an intensive in-person and person-to-person process, for fairly large groups of people at a time, and more recently which typically has involved around TWO HUNDRED thousand individuals year-to-year, year-in and year-out. This is real. There are problems. There are difficulties. There are people in the government tasked with addressing the problems, the difficulties.

To conflate the current situation with the prospect of a draconian shift in government toward stripping immigrants of their rights is more than exaggerating, let alone more than "exaggerating a little bit."

Sure, a shift resulting in a Conservative government will not favour immigration or immigrants. That much is true. I will for-sure participate and do what I can, personally, to oppose the Conservatives returning to power. For lots of reasons.

But to suggest that it is "very likely" there is going to be any shift in the Canadian government, anytime in the foreseeable future, that would result in changes in the law that rendered currently qualified citizenship applicants no longer qualified is FAR-FETCHED. That would in effect take away citizenship from those who are qualified and already have an application in process. NO. That is NOT in the realm of any practical possibility let alone at all likely. And to suggest otherwise is indeed extreme. Not even the Harper-Perrin-Kenney-Alexander government's most draconian measures, which were draconian enough to hand the Conservatives their worst defeat in a long time in the next election, so much as bore a whiff of such extreme measures.

But apart from that, there is such a huge, huge gap between the one and the other, there is no cause to believe mobilizing protests about how long it is taking IRCC to proceed with testing and interviewing citizenship applicants would be, in any way, activism against or preventing a future election leading to a Conservative government that is less friendly to immigrants. The two simply are NOT related enough.

Which brings this back to banging the "horror scenario" drums about the potential influence of those who are "hostile to immigration" . . .



It is precisely the latter, the extent to which anxiety and fear are normal, which concerns me when exaggerated nightmare scenarios are cited as reason to emphasize, in bold and underline . . .



It bothers me when people's normal fears and anxieties are exploited and abused.

Again, NO, those who have a citizenship application in process, who know they are qualified, and who come to this forum looking for information and guidance, do NOT need to apprehend the Canadian government might fail to process their citizenship application. It will get done. Regardless who or why or how many carry signs and make noise in the streets of Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, or elsewhere in Canada.
you should write to IRCC directly, not in this blog
 
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ott-613

Hero Member
Dec 16, 2019
377
175
there is a global pandemic happening , as you know the world is changing, and no one knows when this will end and when we will be back to normal again.
we should understand that people have a lot going on, from nursing , schooling, caring about thier family and process the job at the same time, the citizenship is actually a privilege and we are so lucky to be in this stage actually "waiting " , even though it looks frustrating and long waiting process, I think the applications will be done , we have to be patient and feel empathy to our community .
 

LudoZ

Full Member
Nov 20, 2019
20
19
there is a global pandemic happening , as you know the world is changing, and no one knows when this will end and when we will be back to normal again.
we should understand that people have a lot going on, from nursing , schooling, caring about thier family and process the job at the same time, the citizenship is actually a privilege and we are so lucky to be in this stage actually "waiting " , even though it looks frustrating and long waiting process, I think the applications will be done , we have to be patient and feel empathy to our community .
What do you mean that citizenship is a "privilege"? Canada is based on the rule of law, and there are clear rules on what has to be done to obtain citizenship. From this point of view, obtaining citizenship if you are following the rules is a right. It is not a special favour the government does to you.
 

raincoast87

Member
Feb 22, 2020
14
0
there is a global pandemic happening , as you know the world is changing, and no one knows when this will end and when we will be back to normal again.
we should understand that people have a lot going on, from nursing , schooling, caring about thier family and process the job at the same time, the citizenship is actually a privilege and we are so lucky to be in this stage actually "waiting " , even though it looks frustrating and long waiting process, I think the applications will be done , we have to be patient and feel empathy to our community .
Yes, there is a pandemic. But there are local elections coming up which have not been cancelled - for e.g. in Saskatchewan. The delay in processing applications denies people a chance to participate in the democratic process. Maybe most people don't care, but some do. Tests may be hard to conduct online, interviews can certainly be done online. There are ways to do tests safely as well even if at a lower capacity. It is quite possible to keep the process moving along, rather than this complete shutdown.
 

Ladymarie

Star Member
Jul 1, 2020
89
16
This is completely possible. Conservatives will attack immigrants at the first chance they get. You can see this even in the attitude of conservative members of this forum. According to them, all immigrants are just itching to cheat and game the system. Every 2nd post by such members is about how to prevent cheating. Cheat, cheat, cheat is all they think of when they think of immigrants (other than themselves of course).
Why are exams administered in controlled environment?