cbsa-Montreal border entry RO

[fswevaluation]

Here is my situation.

Received PR in May 2015 and did a soft landing in July 2015. We live and work in US on 3142 occupation on H1B.

I entered Canada in June 2018 and stayed for 2 months and returned to the US. Family was in US at that time

In August 2018 we drove in our personal vehicle as a family(2 adults, 2 US born kids) from North Carolina to Montreal, Quebec City. The CBSA officer pulled us out for further questioning. Took our passports and few minutes later an officer told us that the time we have is very, very less if we want to live in Canada to fulfill the 2 year out of 5 year requirement and let us go.

Next month July 4th - I am planning to fly solo to Toronto, leaving my family here and complete the 2 year requirement.

1. Did the officer make a note at the Montreal Border?

2. Was he required to tell us that he is going to report the CBSA?

He did not mention anything about that.

I know that I am now at my luck if I will be let in to canada without being reported for not meeting the 2 year requirement but I made choices hoping I will be getting the US green card after waiting for 10 years.

If it is successful on July 4th to enter canada, I will let you guys know.

Thanks

 

[dpenabill]

Here is my situation.

Received PR in May 2015 and did a soft landing in July 2015. We live and work in US on 3142 occupation on H1B.

I entered Canada in June 2018 and stayed for 2 months and returned to the US. Family was in US at that time

In August 2018 we drove in our personal vehicle as a family(2 adults, 2 US born kids) from North Carolina to Montreal, Quebec City. The CBSA officer pulled us out for further questioning. Took our passports and few minutes later an officer told us that the time we have is very, very less if we want to live in Canada to fulfill the 2 year out of 5 year requirement and let us go.

Next month July 4th - I am planning to fly solo to Toronto, leaving my family here and complete the 2 year requirement.

1. Did the officer make a note at the Montreal Border?

2. Was he required to tell us that he is going to report the CBSA? He did not mention anything about that.

I know that I am now at my luck if I will be let in to canada without being reported for not meeting the 2 year requirement but I made choices hoping I will be getting the US green card after waiting for 10 years.

If it is successful on July 4th to enter canada, I will let you guys know.

Thanks

1. Did the officer make a note at the Montreal Border?

Almost certainly; almost all Secondary examinations result in some notes recorded in the client's GCMS (used to be FOSS), but the content of the notes can vary from little more than a notation there was an interview to a expansive account of the transaction. Quite likely some notes about RO non-compliance were made but without obtaining copies of the records one can only guess what was actually recorded.



2. Was he required to tell us that he is going to report the CBSA? He did not mention anything about that.

If a formal 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility is issued, a copy is given to the client/PR.

To the extent an examining officer made notes to the file, with or without some sort of alert or flag or referral to a local office for potential further investigation, no, there is no obligation for law enforcement to advise individuals being investigated the details of their investigation or its procedure.

Note: the PoE officer is CBSA. They are in many respects a law enforcement branch of the government.

NOTE: the admonishment was largely FOR YOUR BENEFIT, to make sure that you were aware of the Residency Obligation and how your extended absences would potentially lead to the loss of your PR status . . . to give you an opportunity to address the matter, possibly pursue resolution of it, or at least be prepared.

YES, please do report on how the next PoE interaction goes.

 

[fswevaluation]

Thank you very much for replying in detail.

I would say the POE officer was doing his job in a professional way and I have no complaints about that.

Do you think I can get access to the GCMS notes and that would clear my suspicions and take my trip next month ? Do I request those notes from CBSA or Citizenship, Immigration Canada department?

How do I request these notes?


or

Go directly to the airport and then I will know what my fate

 

[dpenabill]

Thank you very much for replying in detail.

I would say the POE officer was doing his job in a professional way and I have no complaints about that.

Do you think I can get access to the GCMS notes and that would clear my suspicions and take my trip next month ? Do I request those notes from CBSA or Citizenship, Immigration Canada department?

How do I request these notes?


or

Go directly to the airport and then I will know what my fate

It is possible to obtain at least some of the records through the ATIP process, but others here are more familiar with ATIP applications than I am. Time is running out to do that. And I doubt the records will illuminate much more than what you can already surmise . . . which is that it is probably safe to assume there were notes added to your file recording concerns about RO compliance and that you were advised of such concerns. And it is likely that this information will pop up when you are examined at a PoE.

Thus, it is likely, when you next arrive at a PoE to enter Canada, you will again be referred to Secondary and if you are in breach and do not have good H&C reasons, likely to be formally reported and issued a Departure Order, then allowed to enter Canada. You can appeal and stay and work in Canada while the appeal is pending.

But you might be waived through the PIL (Primary Inspection Line), no Secondary examination, in which event your status would still be intact. If you then stayed two years and avoided transactions with either IRCC or CBSA for those two years, the breach would be cured.

Or you could be referred to Secondary and have a transaction similar to the last one. Maybe a more strident caution about the RO this time. But still not reported.

A betting man would probably put his money on the first, being formally reported, but that's gambling, playing the odds; it is not as if anyone can know for sure how it will go when you arrive at the PoE.

 

[mad_hatter]

It is possible to obtain at least some of the records through the ATIP process, but others here are more familiar with ATIP applications than I am. Time is running out to do that. And I doubt the records will illuminate much more than what you can already surmise . . . which is that it is probably safe to assume there were notes added to your file recording concerns about RO compliance and that you were advised of such concerns. And it is likely that this information will pop up when you are examined at a PoE.

Thus, it is likely, when you next arrive at a PoE to enter Canada, you will again be referred to Secondary and if you are in breach and do not have good H&C reasons, likely to be formally reported and issued a Departure Order, then allowed to enter Canada. You can appeal and stay and work in Canada while the appeal is pending.

But you might be waived through the PIL (Primary Inspection Line), no Secondary examination, in which event your status would still be intact. If you then stayed two years and avoided transactions with either IRCC or CBSA for those two years, the breach would be cured.

Or you could be referred to Secondary and have a transaction similar to the last one. Maybe a more strident caution about the RO this time. But still not reported.

A betting man would probably put his money on the first, being formally reported, but that's gambling, playing the odds; it is not as if anyone can know for sure how it will go when you arrive at the PoE.

I think it might be immaterial whether the CBSA officer added notes to OP's file or not. I would imagine every time when OP goes through the border, his PR number would be recorded in IRCC's computer system. IRCC would know how much time he spent in Canada. After all, that is the main reason why Canadian government implemented the PR Card system.

 

[fswevaluation]

Thanks to both of you.

So - the sure way to know whether I have been reported or not is to just land at Pearson Airport on July 4th and see if they decide to let me in or kick me out with a departure order

 

[fswevaluation]

It is possible to obtain at least some of the records through the ATIP process, but others here are more familiar with ATIP applications than I am. Time is running out to do that. And I doubt the records will illuminate much more than what you can already surmise . . . which is that it is probably safe to assume there were notes added to your file recording concerns about RO compliance and that you were advised of such concerns. And it is likely that this information will pop up when you are examined at a PoE.

Thus, it is likely, when you next arrive at a PoE to enter Canada, you will again be referred to Secondary and if you are in breach and do not have good H&C reasons, likely to be formally reported and issued a Departure Order, then allowed to enter Canada. You can appeal and stay and work in Canada while the appeal is pending.

But you might be waived through the PIL (Primary Inspection Line), no Secondary examination, in which event your status would still be intact. If you then stayed two years and avoided transactions with either IRCC or CBSA for those two years, the breach would be cured.

Or you could be referred to Secondary and have a transaction similar to the last one. Maybe a more strident caution about the RO this time. But still not reported.

A betting man would probably put his money on the first, being formally reported, but that's gambling, playing the odds; it is not as if anyone can know for sure how it will go when you arrive at the PoE.

If with a remote chance I am allowed into Canada- and intend to stay for 2years, with my PR card expiring in 2020 September- how do I carry a govt issued identity? With the help of Canadian drivers license? Say I enter in July and get Canadian drivers license- how long will it be issued for?

Thanks

 

[dpenabill]

If with a remote chance I am allowed into Canada- and intend to stay for 2years, with my PR card expiring in 2020 September- how do I carry a govt issued identity? With the help of Canadian drivers license? Say I enter in July and get Canadian drivers license- how long will it be issued for?

First, something of a reminder, so again quoting the first post:

Received PR in May 2015 and did a soft landing in July 2015. We live and work in US on 3142 occupation on H1B.

I entered Canada in June 2018 and stayed for 2 months and returned to the US. Family was in US at that time

In August 2018 we drove in our personal vehicle as a family(2 adults, 2 US born kids) from North Carolina to Montreal, Quebec City. The CBSA officer pulled us out for further questioning.

When you entered Canada in June 2018 there was NO possible question about PR Residency Obligation compliance, since you had NOT been a PR for even three years yet. (Note: this is based on you actually getting PR status in July 2015, not May 2015; you can only get PR status upon actually LANDING; I assume you received the PR visa in May, but did not actually land, and did not actually receive PR status, until July 2015.)

When you returned in August 2018, it had been longer than three years. Whatever triggered the PIL officer's concern, thus the referral to Secondary, at that point it had been more than three years since the date of landing, thus your compliance with the RO was dependent on how much time you had actually spent in Canada, and it was apparent you had not spent much time at all. My impression is that given the earlier, June trip, and being barely a month or so past the third year anniversary of the date of landing, it was apparent that regarding the RO you were cutting-it-close, but not necessarily, not clearly yet in breach. Even if you were in breach at that point, it would be by such a small amount that even minimal H&C reasons could easily weigh in favour of allowing you to keep PR status.

THUS, speculating some (but no real stretch), the caution or admonishment rather than being issued a 44(1) Report.

(Side note: Indeed, a 44(1) Report at that time could have worked in your favour, as that would have led to an interview and review by a Minister's Delegate which would have required a formal decision on the H&C factors, which if favourable to you could have allowed you more flexibility for some time. My GUESS is that this was deliberate. And contrary to views some others here express, I think this is common and to a significant extent explains why it appears a significant number of PRs in actual breach are nonetheless allowed to enter Canada without being reported -- they are given a chance to settle and stay, typically given some caution or admonishment but NOT formally Reported, rather there is a note to the client's record so that the next time, or perhaps the time after that, if the PR has not settled in Canada in the meantime then a Report and Departure Order is issued.)

The bad news is the probability your record is flagged, as I previously discussed. Which leads to your most recent query; again:

If with a remote chance I am allowed into Canada- and intend to stay for 2years, with my PR card expiring in 2020 September- how do I carry a govt issued identity? With the help of Canadian drivers license? Say I enter in July and get Canadian drivers license- how long will it be issued for?

Note, first, you will be allowed to enter Canada. The question is whether or not you will be issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order. Remember, a Departure Order is NOT immediately enforceable. So you will be allowed to enter Canada. If you appeal, you can stay for as long as the appeal is pending. And if you win the appeal, you get to keep PR status.

If you are allowed to enter Canada without being Reported and issued a Departure Order (whether you are waived through without an examination, or you are referred to Secondary and the officers are satisfied your explanation of why you have not settled in Canada sooner is sufficient to allow you to keep status for now), you are good to stay. Yes, get a drivers license and apply for health care while your PR card is still valid. If you stay, these will remain valid for whatever period of time the Province issues the respective card for. In most Provinces, if not all, I'd guess this is for four years. Moreover, at least Ontario (last I looked, but that was a year ago) will accept an expired PR card when RENEWING the drivers license.

In the meantime, your passport plus the expired PR card is sufficient government issued identification for most purposes. But probably best to open a Canadian bank account while your PR card is still valid.

You should also have your SIN card. That is not a government issued identification but that should suffice for employment purposes.

 

[vensak]

First, something of a reminder, so again quoting the first post:



When you entered Canada in June 2018 there was NO possible question about PR Residency Obligation compliance, since you had NOT been a PR for even three years yet. (Note: this is based on you actually getting PR status in July 2015, not May 2015; you can only get PR status upon actually LANDING; I assume you received the PR visa in May, but did not actually land, and did not actually receive PR status, until July 2015.)

When you returned in August 2018, it had been longer than three years. Whatever triggered the PIL officer's concern, thus the referral to Secondary, at that point it had been more than three years since the date of landing, thus your compliance with the RO was dependent on how much time you had actually spent in Canada, and it was apparent you had not spent much time at all. My impression is that given the earlier, June trip, and being barely a month or so past the third year anniversary of the date of landing, it was apparent that regarding the RO you were cutting-it-close, but not necessarily, not clearly yet in breach. Even if you were in breach at that point, it would be by such a small amount that even minimal H&C reasons could easily weigh in favour of allowing you to keep PR status.

THUS, speculating some (but no real stretch), the caution or admonishment rather than being issued a 44(1) Report.

(Side note: Indeed, a 44(1) Report at that time could have worked in your favour, as that would have led to an interview and review by a Minister's Delegate which would have required a formal decision on the H&C factors, which if favourable to you could have allowed you more flexibility for some time. My GUESS is that this was deliberate. And contrary to views some others here express, I think this is common and to a significant extent explains why it appears a significant number of PRs in actual breach are nonetheless allowed to enter Canada without being reported -- they are given a chance to settle and stay, typically given some caution or admonishment but NOT formally Reported, rather there is a note to the client's record so that the next time, or perhaps the time after that, if the PR has not settled in Canada in the meantime then a Report and Departure Order is issued.)

The bad news is the probability your record is flagged, as I previously discussed. Which leads to your most recent query; again:


Note, first, you will be allowed to enter Canada. The question is whether or not you will be issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order. Remember, a Departure Order is NOT immediately enforceable. So you will be allowed to enter Canada. If you appeal, you can stay for as long as the appeal is pending. And if you win the appeal, you get to keep PR status.

If you are allowed to enter Canada without being Reported and issued a Departure Order (whether you are waived through without an examination, or you are referred to Secondary and the officers are satisfied your explanation of why you have not settled in Canada sooner is sufficient to allow you to keep status for now), you are good to stay. Yes, get a drivers license and apply for health care while your PR card is still valid. If you stay, these will remain valid for whatever period of time the Province issues the respective card for. In most Provinces, if not all, I'd guess this is for four years. Moreover, at least Ontario (last I looked, but that was a year ago) will accept an expired PR card when RENEWING the drivers license.

In the meantime, your passport plus the expired PR card is sufficient government issued identification for most purposes. But probably best to open a Canadian bank account while your PR card is still valid.

You should also have your SIN card. That is not a government issued identification but that should suffice for employment purposes.

Be also aware of the following. If you will be reported, all those days in Canada after being reported will not count to RO, unless you manage to win your appeal. So even if you stayed more than 2 years and the appeal was not closed, you will not be able to renew your PR card.
The problem is that you were already warned cutting it close and yet you decided to stay outside for another year. For that appeal you need to have very good reasons why you could not live in Canada past 5 years (in your case for all the time after you became PR). And work or established family elsewhere are not accepted as good reasons (somehow immigration process is for you to pick up your family and go to live in Canada. And those 3 years are more than enough time to organize everything what you need to organize).

Additionally, trying to leave Canada during the appeal process can easily play against you. And unless whole family is PR already, you will not be able to sponsor your children until appeal would be sorted.

 

[fswevaluation]

First, something of a reminder, so again quoting the first post:



When you entered Canada in June 2018 there was NO possible question about PR Residency Obligation compliance, since you had NOT been a PR for even three years yet. (Note: this is based on you actually getting PR status in July 2015, not May 2015; you can only get PR status upon actually LANDING; I assume you received the PR visa in May, but did not actually land, and did not actually receive PR status, until July 2015.)

When you returned in August 2018, it had been longer than three years. Whatever triggered the PIL officer's concern, thus the referral to Secondary, at that point it had been more than three years since the date of landing, thus your compliance with the RO was dependent on how much time you had actually spent in Canada, and it was apparent you had not spent much time at all. My impression is that given the earlier, June trip, and being barely a month or so past the third year anniversary of the date of landing, it was apparent that regarding the RO you were cutting-it-close, but not necessarily, not clearly yet in breach. Even if you were in breach at that point, it would be by such a small amount that even minimal H&C reasons could easily weigh in favour of allowing you to keep PR status.

THUS, speculating some (but no real stretch), the caution or admonishment rather than being issued a 44(1) Report.

(Side note: Indeed, a 44(1) Report at that time could have worked in your favour, as that would have led to an interview and review by a Minister's Delegate which would have required a formal decision on the H&C factors, which if favourable to you could have allowed you more flexibility for some time. My GUESS is that this was deliberate. And contrary to views some others here express, I think this is common and to a significant extent explains why it appears a significant number of PRs in actual breach are nonetheless allowed to enter Canada without being reported -- they are given a chance to settle and stay, typically given some caution or admonishment but NOT formally Reported, rather there is a note to the client's record so that the next time, or perhaps the time after that, if the PR has not settled in Canada in the meantime then a Report and Departure Order is issued.)

The bad news is the probability your record is flagged, as I previously discussed. Which leads to your most recent query; again:


Note, first, you will be allowed to enter Canada. The question is whether or not you will be issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order. Remember, a Departure Order is NOT immediately enforceable. So you will be allowed to enter Canada. If you appeal, you can stay for as long as the appeal is pending. And if you win the appeal, you get to keep PR status.

If you are allowed to enter Canada without being Reported and issued a Departure Order (whether you are waived through without an examination, or you are referred to Secondary and the officers are satisfied your explanation of why you have not settled in Canada sooner is sufficient to allow you to keep status for now), you are good to stay. Yes, get a drivers license and apply for health care while your PR card is still valid. If you stay, these will remain valid for whatever period of time the Province issues the respective card for. In most Provinces, if not all, I'd guess this is for four years. Moreover, at least Ontario (last I looked, but that was a year ago) will accept an expired PR card when RENEWING the drivers license.

In the meantime, your passport plus the expired PR card is sufficient government issued identification for most purposes. But probably best to open a Canadian bank account while your PR card is still valid.

You should also have your SIN card. That is not a government issued identification but that should suffice for employment purposes.

Your answer is thoroughly in detail and I really and sincerely thank you for your time

 

[fswevaluation]

Be also aware of the following. If you will be reported, all those days in Canada after being reported will not count to RO, unless you manage to win your appeal. So even if you stayed more than 2 years and the appeal was not closed, you will not be able to renew your PR card.
The problem is that you were already warned cutting it close and yet you decided to stay outside for another year. For that appeal you need to have very good reasons why you could not live in Canada past 5 years (in your case for all the time after you became PR). And work or established family elsewhere are not accepted as good reasons (somehow immigration process is for you to pick up your family and go to live in Canada. And those 3 years are more than enough time to organize everything what you need to organize).

Additionally, trying to leave Canada during the appeal process can easily play against you. And unless whole family is PR already, you will not be able to sponsor your children until appeal would be sorted.

I don’t have any valid reasons to convince the CBSA - I made the choice to stay in the US and work here as Physiotherapist. I will be honest and if I am asked why I couldn’t meet the RO, I will just have to rely on my luck hoping they will let me in or not stop me. Thank you for your advice

 

[fswevaluation]

What is the difference between going by land route versus taking a flight for someone who has RO issues/ not meeting RO?

Thanks

 

[jddd]

What is the difference between going by land route versus taking a flight for someone who has RO issues/ not meeting RO?

Thanks

Nothing if there is a valid PR card. Chances to be reported are the same.

 

[fswevaluation]

Nothing if there is a valid PR card. Chances to be reported are the same.

So my understanding is if it is an expired PR card- they can travel by land from US but cannot fly into Canada. The RO issue would be the same if you fly or drive

Thanks

 

[jddd]

So my understanding is if it is an expired PR card- they can travel by land from US but cannot fly into Canada. The RO issue would be the same if you fly or drive

Thanks

Yes. Any officer, no matter how you try to enter, can report RO breach.