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Bill C-6, Bill C-24 and the Canadian Legal System

b52shot

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Oct 8, 2013
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I don't see what's the problem whether its 3 out of 4, 4 out of 6 or 3 out of 5. What I personally care about is the processing time because this is where the uncertainty lies.
Lets not forget with the old 3/4, processing time was 2-3 years. With the current 4/6, it takes up to 12 months and I still think its a lot.
If processing time for routine cases was up to 3 months, add an extra month or two max for non-routine then no one will be complaining.
At the end of the day the end-to-end time is what matters. Just my 2 cents
 

Natan

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May 22, 2015
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Coffee1981 said:
Good thing you don't live in America. The normal processing time for citizenship is around 10 years.
One may apply for U.S. citizenship after being a legal permanent resident for five years (three years, if married to a U.S. citizen). Taking the oath of citizenship occurs in less than a year from application.

There are no foreign travel calculators or counting days in country. There are no RQs. Adverse decisions can be appealed in court, because Government always, without exception, grants leave to sue. It's even possible to obtain a passport on the same day as being sworn in. No need to turn in permanent residence cards. And the rules for becoming a citizen haven't changed in decades.

When comparing the government bureaucracies of Canada and the USA, there is no comparison. The USA is far and away more efficient, less bureaucratic, and more concerned with meeting the objectives of the law rather than the letter of the law.
 

quasar81

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Feb 27, 2014
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Well said Natan!!! People usually forget the time bureacracy adds by it own to the law, thereby overriding law on their own in reality.
 

torontosm

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Apr 3, 2013
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Natan said:
One may apply for U.S. citizenship after being a legal permanent resident for five years (three years, if married to a U.S. citizen). Taking the oath of citizenship occurs in less than a year from application.

There are no foreign travel calculators or counting days in country. There are no RQs. Adverse decisions can be appealed in court, because Government always, without exception, grants leave to sue. It's even possible to obtain a passport on the same day as being sworn in. No need to turn in permanent residence cards. And the rules for becoming a citizen haven't changed in decades.

When comparing the government bureaucracies of Canada and the USA, there is no comparison. The USA is far and away more efficient, less bureaucratic, and more concerned with meeting the objectives of the law rather than the letter of the law.
To be fair, the US residency rules are much stricter than Canada's, and US citizens are subject to global taxation. If you want to try and compare the two, then you have to consider all factors.
 

Natan

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May 22, 2015
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torontosm said:
To be fair, the US residency rules are much stricter than Canada's, and US citizens are subject to global taxation. If you want to try and compare the two, then you have to consider all factors.
What do you mean that U.S. residency rules are much stricter, please be specific. The U.S. isn't as picayune as Canada is, e.g., no one is counting every day you spent out of the country or making absolutely sure that the citizenship application was signed and submitted AFTER you became eligible to do so; there is no meticulous review of your entire life to make sure it is centred in the USA and that the applicant is not getting citizenship on the way to the airport.

Yes, all U.S. Tax Persons must pay U.S. taxes, regardless of their place of residence. Canada does not do this.

Btw, I'm not comparing Canadian and U.S. permanent residency. I was responding to someone making uninformed comments about obtaining US citizenship. Along the way, I thought it useful to contrast the two governments' bureaucracies. Again, it was not meant as a comparison of the permanent residency requirements/benefits of the two countries.
 

h3a3j6

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Mar 31, 2014
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torontosm said:
Canada's government will change the laws at will to protect its citizens. You must accept this becuase once you are a citizen, the laws can and will indeed be regularly amended to serve your interests.
Canada's government is constituted of people. People make mistakes. The way C-24 was applied was, in my humble opinion (and in many others) a mistake. The particular application effectively immediately is one of the "unfair" applications, again in my opinion. Accepting it doesn't mean agreeing with it.

torontosm said:
For all of those that feel like victims, look at what the government has done with regard to mortgage qualifications and capitals gains taxes on properties in the last two weeks. Why aren't you protesting equally about the government changing those laws? Again, those changes were done to protect the integrity of the economy and the housing market, and the government acted in the manner it felt best. Or, consider the changes made to the CCTB by Trudeau's government...are you guys complaining that you are receiving more money than you anticipated when you applied for your PR? Are you returning the money because the rules were changed halfway? Of course you aren't, because you know that laws change as times change. The citizenship laws were similarly updated and will likely be changed again many times into the future. You must accept this.
This forum is about citizenship, and this particular topic is about C-6, C-24 and the Canadian Legal system. I'm sure there are many forums debating the other topics you mentioned. On a personal note, I agree with the changes regarding the housing market and am not happy with the CCTB (I now receive 0$ for my kids), but I accept those changes. In addition, the citizenship/residency and very, very slow processing speed of our immigration system are debated here... In contrast, UCCB payments and CCB payments were done like clockwork, I don't believe there is a reason to debate them.

torontosm said:
Remember, no one ever guaranteed that the laws won't change or provided you with a contract with ironclad terms. All that was said is that the current law is X, and that the government reserves the right to change the law at any time.
True, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record... Canada's government is constituted of people. People make mistakes. The way C-24 was applied was, in my humble opinion (and in many others) a mistake. The particular application effectively immediately is one of the "unfair" applications, again in my opinion. Accepting it doesn't mean agreeing with it.
 

torontosm

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Apr 3, 2013
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Natan said:
What do you mean that U.S. residency rules are much stricter, please be specific. The U.S. isn't as picayune as Canada is, e.g., no one is counting every day you spent out of the country or making absolutely sure that the citizenship application was signed and submitted AFTER you became eligible to do so; there is no meticulous review of your entire life to make sure it is centred in the USA and that the applicant is not getting citizenship on the way to the airport.
Well, according to this (https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-granted/maintaining-permanent-residence), you could lose your green card if you: (a) move to another country; (b) stay out of the US for an extended period of time; (c) fail to file your US taxes. In comparison, you could do all three and still maintain your Canadian PR. So therefore, US residency rules are much stricter.

I've known people who have lost their green cards because they didn't enter the US every six months. In comparison, there have been numerous posters on this forum who landed in Canada and returned many years later (even after expiry of their PR cards) without issue. So, in my view, there is really no comparison at all...US residency rules are stricter.
 

Natan

Hero Member
May 22, 2015
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torontosm said:
Well, according to this (https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-granted/maintaining-permanent-residence), you could lose your green card if you: (a) move to another country; (b) stay out of the US for an extended period of time; (c) fail to file your US taxes. In comparison, you could do all three and still maintain your Canadian PR. So therefore, US residency rules are much stricter.

I've known people who have lost their green cards because they didn't enter the US every six months. In comparison, there have been numerous posters on this forum who landed in Canada and returned many years later (even after expiry of their PR cards) without issue. So, in my view, there is really no comparison at all...US residency rules are stricter.
Again, I was not comparing Canadian and U.S. permanent residency. I was stating the requirements for becoming a U.S. citizen (correcting someone else's comment); and comparing Canadian and U.S. government bureaucracies, solely as regards the naturalization process.
 

marcher

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Mar 30, 2016
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Natan said:
Again, I was not comparing Canadian and U.S. permanent residency. I was stating the requirements for becoming a U.S. citizen (correcting someone else's comment); and comparing Canadian and U.S. government bureaucracies, solely as regards the naturalization process.
I think before comparing the US and Canadian citizenship rules; we need to keep in mind that Canada's PR possibilities are incomparable to the US. The chance of qualifying for a green card based on skill is quite difficult unless you master a unique profession. Canada has incredibly more opportunities at that level. I think the immigration laws of every country reflect the government's perspective and interest. Some might disagree, but I believe Australia, New Zealand and Canada have the most successful and attractive immigration programs.
 

747-captain

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Natan said:
One may apply for U.S. citizenship after being a legal permanent resident for five years (three years, if married to a U.S. citizen). Taking the oath of citizenship occurs in less than a year from application.

There are no foreign travel calculators or counting days in country. There are no RQs. Adverse decisions can be appealed in court, because Government always, without exception, grants leave to sue. It's even possible to obtain a passport on the same day as being sworn in. No need to turn in permanent residence cards. And the rules for becoming a citizen haven't changed in decades.

When comparing the government bureaucracies of Canada and the USA, there is no comparison. The USA is far and away more efficient, less bureaucratic, and more concerned with meeting the objectives of the law rather than the letter of the law.
Natan, Well stated and you hit the nail right on the head. I will make a very small correction, though. In the US, there is no such thing as "granting of leave" to appeal or sue. Every immigrant and citizen has this RIGHT automatically! I find the concept of "asking" for leave to sue mind boggling and outright insane. It is like asking the FOX, who wants to eat the HEN, could you please allow me to not be eaten by you? Simply put it is ludicrous beyond belief! (FYI, I made that saying up based on "it's like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse" ;) )

The difference people on here do not understand, and frequently conflate with many other things, is the difference between the actual laws and how they are actually implemented and enforced. ON PAPER the laws of Canada are, indeed, more lenient (in terms of meeting residency requirements etc.) than those of the U.S. But how they actually end up playing out in reality is an entirely different story.

In reality, it is clearly evident that there are no checks and balances, or any sort of accountability, by the enforcers and implementers of the law (the bureaucracy that handles immigration related matters - the IRCC). For instance, look at all the applicants for renewal of their PRs who have been put in secondary review, with the IRCC flagrantly violating their RIGHTS with impunity, based on a mere suspicion that they might have not met their residency obligation!! These people are left to languish in limbo, without proper documentation of their status, for years on end. This sort of thing is UNHEARD OF in the US! If something like this happened here, the courts would slap them down in a heartbeat, and there would be a riot! This is the kind of thing that happens in 3rd world corrupt countries! Not something that is expected from a country which parades itself as being part of the 1st world. These kinds of things almost give me pause, as to whether I should even consider finally moving to Canada at all! Even though my immigration situation in the US is complex and messy, and I have my battles to fight, at least I know I have the protection of the INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY on my side, even as an immigrant who has not even been granted permanent residence yet!

In other words, as a mere applicant for a green card (based on my wife being a US citizen), I have more rights and protections in the US, than I have as an actual PR of Canada, or even my Canadian citizen sister, whose citizenship may be unilaterally revoked at any time by ONE SINGLE BUREAUCRAT (an Immigration Minister), if he simply accuses her of misrepresentation and fraud!! And with no mechanisms to appeal or challenge the decision!! If this is not frightening and terrifying at its core, to anyone (especially the apologists on these forums), then they definitely need to have their heads examined!

This is exactly why my sister, who is a dual US and Canadian citizen will NEVER give up her US citizenship! Citizenship is a sacrosanct identity (as it should be) that defines the very fundamental sense of belonging of a person!, especially when that person has had to give up their original citizenship to gain the new one!

As someone who was born in India and naturalized in BOTH the US (a very long time ago) and Canada (more recently), she knows that it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE for the US government to revoke her US citizenship (especially after the 2-year statute of limitations has passed), while her Canadian citizenship is a sad joke that can be taken away if someone from the government so much as does not like the way she looks, or perhaps they don't like the fact that she voted for the "wrong" people in a recent election!! They could easily trump up (pardon the pun) charges against her, and she would have ZERO recourse! (at least before revocation). See the Minister Monsef case as an example. And she is a woman with the power of the entire government behind her!! What happens to the powerless individual who is simply accused of some such thing, which may be 100% false in reality?

By sharp contrast, the grounds for citizenship revocation are extremely limited in the US. And the BURDEN OF PROOF is on the government, not the citizen like in Canada! Even during the 2-year period before the statute of limitations expires, the US government cannot simply revoke someone's citizenship for fraud or misrepresentation willy nilly. They can start revocation, but it is not FINAL until the citizen has exhausted all their appeals and they can appeal ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!! After the 2-year statute of limitations has passed, the government cannot even START revocation proceedings. They have to convene a grand jury, who must indict the citizen. This is exactly why citizenship revocations are so exceptionally rare in the US!

So which would one rather have? A year or two longer wait and be assured that you're 100% protected by the law, or gain citizenship quickly and then live the rest of your life in fear, that if you were to rub someone in power the wrong way, your citizenship could be revoked at the drop of a hat? The choice should be a no-brainer!
 

ADUFE

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Jun 28, 2009
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747-captain said:
Natan, Well stated and you hit the nail right on the head. I will make a very small correction, though. In the US, there is no such thing as "granting of leave" to appeal or sue. Every immigrant and citizen has this RIGHT automatically! I find the concept of "asking" for leave to sue mind boggling and outright insane. It is like asking the FOX, who wants to eat the HEN, could you please allow me to not be eaten by you? Simply put it is ludicrous beyond belief! (FYI, I made that saying up based on "it's like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse" ;) )

The difference people on here do not understand, and frequently conflate with many other things, is the difference between the actual laws and how they are actually implemented and enforced. ON PAPER the laws of Canada are, indeed, more lenient (in terms of meeting residency requirements etc.) than those of the U.S. But how they actually end up playing out in reality is an entirely different story.

In reality, it is clearly evident that there are no checks and balances, or any sort of accountability, by the enforcers and implementers of the law (the bureaucracy that handles immigration related matters - the IRCC). For instance, look at all the applicants for renewal of their PRs who have been put in secondary review, with the IRCC flagrantly violating their RIGHTS with impunity, based on a mere suspicion that they might have not met their residency obligation!! These people are left to languish in limbo, without proper documentation of their status, for years on end. This sort of thing is UNHEARD OF in the US! If something like this happened here, the courts would slap them down in a heartbeat, and there would be a riot! This is the kind of thing that happens in 3rd world corrupt countries! Not something that is expected from a country which parades itself as being part of the 1st world. These kinds of things almost give me pause, as to whether I should even consider finally moving to Canada at all! Even though my immigration situation in the US is complex and messy, and I have my battles to fight, at least I know I have the protection of the INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY on my side, even as an immigrant who has not even been granted permanent residence yet!

In other words, as a mere applicant for a green card (based on my wife being a US citizen), I have more rights and protections in the US, than I have as an actual PR of Canada, or even my Canadian citizen sister, whose citizenship may be unilaterally revoked at any time by ONE SINGLE BUREAUCRAT (an Immigration Minister), if he simply accuses her of misrepresentation and fraud!! And with no mechanisms to appeal or challenge the decision!! If this is not frightening and terrifying at its core, to anyone (especially the apologists on these forums), then they definitely need to have their heads examined!

This is exactly why my sister, who is a dual US and Canadian citizen will NEVER give up her US citizenship! Citizenship is a sacrosanct identity (as it should be) that defines the very fundamental sense of belonging of a person!, especially when that person has had to give up their original citizenship to gain the new one!

As someone who was born in India and naturalized in BOTH the US (a very long time ago) and Canada (more recently), she knows that it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE for the US government to revoke her US citizenship (especially after the 2-year statute of limitations has passed), while her Canadian citizenship is a sad joke that can be taken away if someone from the government so much as does not like the way she looks, or perhaps they don't like the fact that she voted for the "wrong" people in a recent election!! They could easily trump up (pardon the pun) charges against her, and she would have ZERO recourse! (at least before revocation). See the Minister Monsef case as an example. And she is a woman with the power of the entire government behind her!! What happens to the powerless individual who is simply accused of some such thing, which may be 100% false in reality?

By sharp contrast, the grounds for citizenship revocation are extremely limited in the US. And the BURDEN OF PROOF is on the government, not the citizen like in Canada! Even during the 2-year period before the statute of limitations expires, the US government cannot simply revoke someone's citizenship for fraud or misrepresentation willy nilly. They can start revocation, but it is not FINAL until the citizen has exhausted all their appeals and they can appeal ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!! After the 2-year statute of limitations has passed, the government cannot even START revocation proceedings. They have to convene a grand jury, who must indict the citizen. This is exactly why citizenship revocations are so exceptionally rare in the US!

So which would one rather have? A year or two longer wait and be assured that you're 100% protected by the law, or gain citizenship quickly and then live the rest of your life in fear, that if you were to rub someone in power the wrong way, your citizenship could be revoked at the drop of a hat? The choice should be a no-brainer!

VERY well said 747-Captain. You hit all the nails very well on the head! I especially agree with this part "This is the kind of thing that happens in 3rd world corrupt countries! Not something that is expected from a country which parades itself as being part of the 1st world." Canada is a supposed 1st world country with (to quote a previous poster on this forum); " No accountabilty, no objectivity, and no transparency" at any level of government or elsewhere for that matter. I would also add to that list; no standards anywhere whatsoever!

Last but not least these are not apologists they are government-paid shills who have been on this forum for years! You will notice that they are the ONLY groups of individuals who have been on these forums consistently for years. That's because it is their full time jobs, real people who have to work to survive cannot and do not do this.......