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Bill C-6, Bill C-24 and the Canadian Legal System

marcher

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Mar 30, 2016
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I thought of starting this thread after reading a lot of comments on different threads that highlight dissatisfaction, disappointment and frustration with the Canadian political system in general and the Canadian immigration system in precise. I just want to remind my fellow immigrants that we are all in this country, or in the process to move to this country, out of personal choice. A choice we all made because we believe it is the best option for us. It just would not make sense why one would leave a better place and situation. Some may have moved for economic reasons, safety and stability, to be closer to loved one(s), or some other reason. A good analogy would be going to a restaurant for a dinner. No one obliges you to pick a specific restaurant over the other, so if you, out of your personal choice select to go to an Italian Restaurant, then you cannot expect any entitlements in the restaurant just because you sat on a chair. You have to abide by the rules of the restaurant. If they are charging $100 for a pizza, you cannot order it and then pay $30 because you think $100 is too much. In relation to Bill C-6, some of you will say it is the same as if you went into a restaurant, ordered a pizza that cost $30 on the menu, but when it was time to pay, the waiter says that the price changed in the last hour, and it costs $100. Well that is not a strong argument as there is NO legal promise from the Canadian government to grant PR’s citizenship after 3 years. They point out that is an option one could apply for, but like everything else, it is governed by the regulations in place at the time. Think of going to the Italian restaurant and complaining why it takes them 30 minutes to prepare your meal; that is exactly what most are doing on here.
.

I read a lot of comments trashing the legal system in Canada because Bill C-6 hasn’t been implemented already. I understand the frustration such individuals are experiencing because things are not going as expected. But then again, these high expectations are just a product of the individuals themselves. There is no country on the planet that issues new laws rapidly. The present law is C-24; and that took a long process to finally come into existence. The new proposed changes will have to go through a similar or even longer process until a bipartisan agreement is finally reached at all government levels. Rushing bills without continuous scrutiny and debate will just result in laws covered in flaws; and being challenged in the Courts. I said before that we as humans are selfish, but we get offended when reminded of that. The reasons many give for why C-6 should already be in place are 100% selfish reasons; e.g. so I can get a job in the forces (if you cared about joining the forces why didn’t you do that back in your home country – did they not pay enough?); or because my job requires travelling to the USA; or because I want to apply to a federal job; or because I want to go look after my parents ..etc. I am not saying it is bad to care about yourself and personal interests, but what makes you think the Canadian Law would go above and beyond to meet your personal convenience? What have you done to this country that is so significant that you deserve having the laws designed around your personal preferences? I thought about this and my only explanation is probably this is the case of the kid who never gets to eat cookies, and once he tastes one from a cookie jar, he grabs a second and third and starts munching them like the cookie monster. For some, maybe living in a democratic country where there are chances of contacting MPs, starting a petition, and being heard is a new experience. Maybe because they are in a country where law prohibits discrimination, and enforces equal opportunity, they are having a new experience. So as soon as they had a taste of a free system, they could not have enough and suddenly expected everything to be based around their wellbeing and convenience.
.

I read that some say the government is intentionally delaying C-6. Now this idea kind of shows the mentality its holders have. They must come from countries where such activities take place, and corruption is so high that the trust between the people and the government is nonexistent. Politicians are not saints in Canada, but the system has safeguards to minimize corruption and detect it with the most efficient manner available. Now whether the system is perfect or not; there is no doubt there is always room for improvement; but I think most will agree that the Canadian system is among the best and most successful in the world.
.

Bill C-6 will in one form or other pass at some point. But the aspect many are overlooking is the fact Bill C-6 is composed of many clauses; some controversial and some pretty straight forward. Most of us here seem to relate mostly to the 3/5 rule change, which is by the way the least controversial. The Bill can only pass as a whole, so until the House of Commons and Senate are happy with every clause, the Bill will continue to be debated and amended. I personally, although I would benefit from the 3/5 rule, think it is too late to change that rule at this stage. It will just lead to a huge backlog that will slow down the application process and may cost the government more money to control. As you may know, if it costs more money, the applicants will pick the bill at the end of the day. Now I may be totally wrong, and Minister McCullum might have some genius efficient procedures that will prevent a backlog and maintain the present speed of processing applications; but unless I missed it, I have not heard him nor any other Liberal disclosing it.
.

To cut a long story short, let’s cut down on the negativity, and sense of entitlement. Let us be grateful for this country and system for giving us a chance to become residents; and when the time comes, to become citizens. Let us not forget that we did not vote for anyone in this government, so we cannot hold anyone accountable for promises made to others. Let us not forget that bill C-6 is neither urgent nor a matter of high public concern nor a basic electoral promise; so Liberals and the rest of the government have no reason to prioritize it over matters that concern their constituents. Meanwhile, enjoy embracing this beautiful country and people, and let’s go Blue Jays!
.

p.s. I apologize for any grammatical errors in advance
 

scylla

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h3a3j6

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I definitely agree with you that the conversation needs to stay courteous and by all means bashing and rude comments should not be there, there are a few points I'd like to comment on:


marcher said:
I thought of starting this thread after reading a lot of comments on different threads that highlight dissatisfaction, disappointment and frustration with the Canadian political system in general and the Canadian immigration system in precise. I just want to remind my fellow immigrants that we are all in this country, or in the process to move to this country, out of personal choice. A choice we all made because we believe it is the best option for us. It just would not make sense why one would leave a better place and situation. Some may have moved for economic reasons, safety and stability, to be closer to loved one(s), or some other reason. A good analogy would be going to a restaurant for a dinner. No one obliges you to pick a specific restaurant over the other, so if you, out of your personal choice select to go to an Italian Restaurant, then you cannot expect any entitlements in the restaurant just because you sat on a chair. You have to abide by the rules of the restaurant. If they are charging $100 for a pizza, you cannot order it and then pay $30 because you think $100 is too much. In relation to Bill C-6, some of you will say it is the same as if you went into a restaurant, ordered a pizza that cost $30 on the menu, but when it was time to pay, the waiter says that the price changed in the last hour, and it costs $100. Well that is not a strong argument as there is NO legal promise from the Canadian government to grant PR’s citizenship after 3 years. They point out that is an option one could apply for, but like everything else, it is governed by the regulations in place at the time. Think of going to the Italian restaurant and complaining why it takes them 30 minutes to prepare your meal; that is exactly what most are doing on here.
That's actually not true. If you really want to use that restaurant example, then here's the actual story:
People have been queuing for hours (or years) at the entrance of the restaurant, they've had time to check the menu, they like what they see, etc... Now, once they finally (after waiting hours aka years), the waiter lets them in, they get seated and he comes with the menu. They notice that the menu has changed, the prices too, mostly more expensive than before. People are on the table... They thought they'll be eating A and paying B... Now they have to eat C and pay D... Do they leave the restaurant after waiting all this time? Why weren't they informed that the menu was changing while they were queueing? To make it worse, as they finally decide to stay and are ready to eat, the waiter comes and says... "Well now, we have a new menu in the making, E and cost is F..." which is cheaper than D. We don't know when the new menu will be out... All that we are told is that people need to... wait...

If I have to blame the government about these rules, I'd say for a decent way of "serving" food, the options and price tag that were advertised upon entering the should be maintained for people who entered at that time and not change. I know, this is not a life-threatening thing, but also you can't keep playing yo-yo with people like this.... And that is what is causing all the grief, marcher.


marcher said:
I read a lot of comments trashing the legal system in Canada because Bill C-6 hasn’t been implemented already. I understand the frustration such individuals are experiencing because things are not going as expected. But then again, these high expectations are just a product of the individuals themselves. There is no country on the planet that issues new laws rapidly. The present law is C-24; and that took a long process to finally come into existence. The new proposed changes will have to go through a similar or even longer process until a bipartisan agreement is finally reached at all government levels. Rushing bills without continuous scrutiny and debate will just result in laws covered in flaws; and being challenged in the Courts. I said before that we as humans are selfish, but we get offended when reminded of that. The reasons many give for why C-6 should already be in place are 100% selfish reasons; e.g. so I can get a job in the forces (if you cared about joining the forces why didn’t you do that back in your home country – did they not pay enough?); or because my job requires travelling to the USA; or because I want to apply to a federal job; or because I want to go look after my parents ..etc. I am not saying it is bad to care about yourself and personal interests, but what makes you think the Canadian Law would go above and beyond to meet your personal convenience? What have you done to this country that is so significant that you deserve having the laws designed around your personal preferences? I thought about this and my only explanation is probably this is the case of the kid who never gets to eat cookies, and once he tastes one from a cookie jar, he grabs a second and third and starts munching them like the cookie monster. For some, maybe living in a democratic country where there are chances of contacting MPs, starting a petition, and being heard is a new experience. Maybe because they are in a country where law prohibits discrimination, and enforces equal opportunity, they are having a new experience. So as soon as they had a taste of a free system, they could not have enough and suddenly expected everything to be based around their wellbeing and convenience.
Again, I agree with you on the trashing, rudeness, etc... But let's not kid ourselves. Everything in Canada is SLOW. From queuing at the hospital for treatment, to roadworks, to laws, everything... literally everything is very slow... Compare Canada's population with Australia's (similar) population for CIC/IRCC timelines and you'll see what I'm talking about... Australia does it CHEAPER, FASTER and dare I say... BETTER. And you can't expect someone queuing at the door of the restaurant to know how much time the chef needs to cook an egg... Or that cooking an egg will take 4 days! Do you believe that a 36, 48, 60 months delay to get your citizenship... is reasonable? What about all those people who waited to get PR and then got dismissed a couple years ago to clear the backlog? What happens to their lives? and hopes? Again, you're oversimplifying things...


marcher said:
I read that some say the government is intentionally delaying C-6. Now this idea kind of shows the mentality its holders have. They must come from countries where such activities take place, and corruption is so high that the trust between the people and the government is nonexistent. Politicians are not saints in Canada, but the system has safeguards to minimize corruption and detect it with the most efficient manner available. Now whether the system is perfect or not; there is no doubt there is always room for improvement; but I think most will agree that the Canadian system is among the best and most successful in the world.

Bill C-6 will in one form or other pass at some point. But the aspect many are overlooking is the fact Bill C-6 is composed of many clauses; some controversial and some pretty straight forward. Most of us here seem to relate mostly to the 3/5 rule change, which is by the way the least controversial. The Bill can only pass as a whole, so until the House of Commons and Senate are happy with every clause, the Bill will continue to be debated and amended. I personally, although I would benefit from the 3/5 rule, think it is too late to change that rule at this stage. It will just lead to a huge backlog that will slow down the application process and may cost the government more money to control. As you may know, if it costs more money, the applicants will pick the bill at the end of the day. Now I may be totally wrong, and Minister McCullum might have some genius efficient procedures that will prevent a backlog and maintain the present speed of processing applications; but unless I missed it, I have not heard him nor any other Liberal disclosing it.
Enough with that. Had the government implemented a decent exit verification process (that is coming into force soon by the way), all those wasted dollars would have been saved... There are ways to do things better, faster... We're just not pushing for that.

marcher said:
To cut a long story short, let’s cut down on the negativity, and sense of entitlement. Let us be grateful for this country and system for giving us a chance to become residents; and when the time comes, to become citizens. Let us not forget that we did not vote for anyone in this government, so we cannot hold anyone accountable for promises made to others. Let us not forget that bill C-6 is neither urgent nor a matter of high public concern nor a basic electoral promise; so Liberals and the rest of the government have no reason to prioritize it over matters that concern their constituents. Meanwhile, enjoy embracing this beautiful country and people, and let’s go Blue Jays!
Agree... With one diff!!! Go Canadiens de Montréal ! ;-)
 

marcher

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Mar 30, 2016
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h3a3j6 said:
I definitely agree with you that the conversation needs to stay courteous and by all means bashing and rude comments should not be there, there are a few points I'd like to comment on:

That's actually not true. If you really want to use that restaurant example, then here's the actual story:
People have been queuing for hours (or years) at the entrance of the restaurant, they've had time to check the menu, they like what they see, etc... Now, once they finally (after waiting hours aka years), the waiter lets them in, they get seated and he comes with the menu. They notice that the menu has changed, the prices too, mostly more expensive than before. People are on the table... They thought they'll be eating A and paying B... Now they have to eat C and pay D... Do they leave the restaurant after waiting all this time? Why weren't they informed that the menu was changing while they were queueing? To make it worse, as they finally decide to stay and are ready to eat, the waiter comes and says... "Well now, we have a new menu in the making, E and cost is F..." which is cheaper than D. We don't know when the new menu will be out... All that we are told is that people need to... wait...

If I have to blame the government about these rules, I'd say for a decent way of "serving" food, the options and price tag that were advertised upon entering the should be maintained for people who entered at that time and not change. I know, this is not a life-threatening thing, but also you can't keep playing yo-yo with people like this.... And that is what is causing all the grief, marcher.

Again, I agree with you on the trashing, rudeness, etc... But let's not kid ourselves. Everything in Canada is SLOW. From queuing at the hospital for treatment, to roadworks, to laws, everything... literally everything is very slow... Compare Canada's population with Australia's (similar) population for CIC/IRCC timelines and you'll see what I'm talking about... Australia does it CHEAPER, FASTER and dare I say... BETTER. And you can't expect someone queuing at the door of the restaurant to know how much time the chef needs to cook an egg... Or that cooking an egg will take 4 days! Do you believe that a 36, 48, 60 months delay to get your citizenship... is reasonable? What about all those people who waited to get PR and then got dismissed a couple years ago to clear the backlog? What happens to their lives? and hopes? Again, you're oversimplifying things...

Enough with that. Had the government implemented a decent exit verification process (that is coming into force soon by the way), all those wasted dollars would have been saved... There are ways to do things better, faster... We're just not pushing for that.
Agree... With one diff!!! Go Canadiens de Montréal ! ;-)
You made some very good points that I would like to discuss. By the way the restaurant was just an analogy, let us not get too focused on the restaurant overlooking the reality of the citizenship situation. But sticking to the same analogy, you said it yourself there is always an option to walk out of the restaurant if we are not happy with the situation and offers. Another important thing is unlike the restaurant where the owner just threw new conditions at you without prior notice; the Canadian government never hides anything regarding its laws. Anyone following the news will be aware of the different perspectives of the political parties regarding immigration, and what each party may attempt to change once in power. If anything, this is just a lack of homework from the side of the immigrants. It is kind of the same as those doctors we keep hearing about who left all behind to end up driving cabs. They probably put all focus on applying, but zero effort on researching and networking to figure out how they'll be doctors in Canada; before moving to Canada.
.
Regarding your second point, I agree the system is slow, but trust me it is way faster than a lot of countries I know of. On the same topic, you compared Canada with Australia. Now you may be 100% correct about Australia, but I cannot comment on that because I do not know anything about their immigration system. However, I know that we are all in Canada and picked Canada as our destination; so it is unfair to expect Canada to be the same or better than another country. Having said that, while Australia might be more efficient based on your comment, how many countries have a worse immigration system than Canada? Trust me my friend, way more than those that might have a better system.
.
Now the most important point, why are you comparing Blue Jays to Canadiens :) You can support both. My only critique is I am disappointed in PK Subban's trade to an American team!
 

h3a3j6

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marcher said:
You made some very good points that I would like to discuss. By the way the restaurant was just an analogy, let us not get too focused on the restaurant overlooking the reality of the citizenship situation. But sticking to the same analogy, you said it yourself there is always an option to walk out of the restaurant if we are not happy with the situation and offers. Another important thing is unlike the restaurant where the owner just threw new conditions at you without prior notice; the Canadian government never hides anything regarding its laws. Anyone following the news will be aware of the different perspectives of the political parties regarding immigration, and what each party may attempt to change once in power. If anything, this is just a lack of homework from the side of the immigrants. It is kind of the same as those doctors we keep hearing about who left all behind to end up driving cabs. They probably put all focus on applying, but zero effort on researching and networking to figure out how they'll be doctors in Canada; before moving to Canada.
Of course, it's just an analogy. I'm just using it to illustrate how the perception changes. And you're right: People can always leave... But think a little about it, you've invested all this emotional energy, hope, time into it... Leave to go back to zero. That requires a lot. Sometimes, people spent 6-8 years waiting, come here, start all over, it's hard... Really hard the first few years! I remember when we first came, I only had my backpack and I was worried about the future. Ask me if I want to do it again... No! It's very time consuming, energy consuming, everything consuming! And besides, I love it here! As I write these lines, I'm waiting for my oath letter and counting the days impatiently!
As for the research piece, sure! Ideally people need to do due diligence to maximize their chances, like I landed a job BEFORE arriving... And that for me the best thing I ever did, and that differentiates my experience entirely! But it's a combo of work, contacts, and a lot of luck too! And sometimes people just don't think about it. The baseline should make things easier for people, not harder. That's my feeling, anyway.


marcher said:
Regarding your second point, I agree the system is slow, but trust me it is way faster than a lot of countries I know of. On the same topic, you compared Canada with Australia. Now you may be 100% correct about Australia, but I cannot comment on that because I do not know anything about their immigration system. However, I know that we are all in Canada and picked Canada as our destination; so it is unfair to expect Canada to be the same or better than another country. Having said that, while Australia might be more efficient based on your comment, how many countries have a worse immigration system than Canada? Trust me my friend, way more than those that might have a better system.
Of course, but Canada is really, really slow. Don't get me wrong... It's probably why people are so peaceful here but sometimes it's just way too much! Like I waited at the hospital with my 3-years old for 6 hours before getting in! That was 11pm! Good grief! Can't we get this a tad faster, especially with the taxation brackets that we have (In Quebec it's worse by the, we're the most heavily taxed province).
Here are Australia's numbers: They are 24.5 M people, 80 days for a decision to be made for an application (https://www.border.gov.au/about/access-accountability/service-standards/citizenship-processing) and fee is $AU325...
Seriously... 80 days...


marcher said:
Now the most important point, why are you comparing Blue Jays to Canadiens :) You can support both. My only critique is I am disappointed in PK Subban's trade to an American team!
I'm secretly hoping that we lose this year, what on earth struck their heads to send him down there???
 

canadasucks

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h3a3j6 said:
Of course, but Canada is really, really slow. Don't get me wrong... It's probably why people are so peaceful here but sometimes it's just way too much! Like I waited at the hospital with my 3-years old for 6 hours before getting in! That was 11pm! Good grief! Can't we get this a tad faster, especially with the taxation brackets that we have (In Quebec it's worse by the, we're the most heavily taxed province).
Here are Australia's numbers: They are 24.5 M people, 80 days for a decision to be made for an application (https://www.border.gov.au/about/access-accountability/service-standards/citizenship-processing) and fee is $AU325...
Seriously... 80 days...
The most important about Australia, when they changed citizenship law from 2 years to 4 years requirement, they applied the old law to all the old PRs landed before passing new law.
 

marcher

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canadasucks said:
The most important about Australia, when they changed citizenship law from 2 years to 4 years requirement, they applied the old law to all the old PRs landed before passing new law.
I like that approach since it makes sense to apply the law that was in place when one first entered as PR; but I guess the decision makers here think the current law should apply instead. You know citizenship and immigration issues in general seem to always disfavor the clients (which are immigrants) because they are not represented by any authoritative body. There are organizations and groups, but I do not think any have any power to make a significant impact. The fees of applications were increase by 400% or more, and the applicants have no choice but to pay. It seems none of the parties in the whole process report to nor have any obligation to look for the interest of immigrants. The MPs are representing their voters and constituents interests, and Senators represent her Majesty ..etc. This might be the same in other countries too. The only point where an immigrant has representation is in Court. I think that is how a case ended in the UK, and finally immigrants were able to get something out of it. But in our case, that might not be an option. If you think of it, immigrants are not represented by one body or authoritative group that can easily carry out class actions ..etc, if anything, this forum might be our only gathering point. If anything was to happen, then a group has to get together and meet with a lawyer, who will be discussing his or her fees more than anything else. How many can afford such a financial and time investment, probably not many. Just food for thought.
 

screech339

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To be honest, C-24 wouldn't be in such an uproar if the 4/6 rule was applied based on when PR landed. If PR landed before implement date, or royal ascent date, PR gets to follow old 3/4 rule. Other PR follow new 4/6 rule.
 

h3a3j6

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Indeed... It's like someone changing the rules of the game right at the beginning or halfway through the game... Or our restaurant example! ;)
 

ajithpl

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Not sure of the restaurant example as one was given the food (read: PR) at the exact terms and conditions. Here we are talking about something as an add-on benefit which we can equate to "get a luxury room for $230 after 3/5 days of having food here". After 2 days, they changed to "get a luxury room for $630 after having 4/6 days of food". On a side note, previously you had to wait for another 2 days to get the room confirmed which is now just 6 hrs!
Extra: Don't take any food outside till you get the room confirmed (intend to eat) and also, you could be thrown out of the room anytime if you cause destruction to the Hotel or any other Hotels!- Isn't?
:) ;) :D
 

willzou

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I totally agree with h3a3j6
he deserves to be "Hero Member"

he is very logical, he speak out what's in my mind and my experience.
 

MarceauBletard

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marcher said:
Meanwhile, enjoy embracing this beautiful country and people, and let’s go Blue Jays!
h3a3j6 said:
Agree... With one diff!!! Go Canadiens de Montréal ! ;-)
Go Sens Go!
Let's go Blue Jays & Let's go Raptors!
Allez l'Impact!

But:
Habs = Worst team on the planet!
#AntiCHforever
 

Coffee1981

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h3a3j6 said:
Again, I agree with you on the trashing, rudeness, etc... But let's not kid ourselves. Everything in Canada is SLOW. From queuing at the hospital for treatment, to roadworks, to laws, everything... literally everything is very slow... Compare Canada's population with Australia's (similar) population for CIC/IRCC timelines and you'll see what I'm talking about... Australia does it CHEAPER, FASTER and dare I say... BETTER. And you can't expect someone queuing at the door of the restaurant to know how much time the chef needs to cook an egg... Or that cooking an egg will take 4 days! Do you believe that a 36, 48, 60 months delay to get your citizenship... is reasonable? What about all those people who waited to get PR and then got dismissed a couple years ago to clear the backlog? What happens to their lives? and hopes? Again, you're oversimplifying things...
Good thing you don't live in America. The normal processing time for citizenship is around 10 years.
 

torontosm

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h3a3j6 said:
Indeed... It's like someone changing the rules of the game right at the beginning or halfway through the game... Or our restaurant example! ;)
Canada's government will change the laws at will to protect its citizens. You must accept this becuase once you are a citizen, the laws can and will indeed be regularly amended to serve your interests.

For all of those that feel like victims, look at what the government has done with regard to mortgage qualifications and capitals gains taxes on properties in the last two weeks. Why aren't you protesting equally about the government changing those laws? Again, those changes were done to protect the integrity of the economy and the housing market, and the government acted in the manner it felt best. Or, consider the changes made to the CCTB by Trudeau's government...are you guys complaining that you are receiving more money than you anticipated when you applied for your PR? Are you returning the money because the rules were changed halfway? Of course you aren't, because you know that laws change as times change. The citizenship laws were similarly updated and will likely be changed again many times into the future. You must accept this.

Remember, no one ever guaranteed that the laws won't change or provided you with a contract with ironclad terms. All that was said is that the current law is X, and that the government reserves the right to change the law at any time.