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2nd Generation - Citizens?

redpill

Newbie
Oct 27, 2015
3
0
I am trying to determine if my two children are Canadian citizens by birth. The "Am I a Canadian Citizen" tool on the cic website is currently being updated and I can't figure out the legalize in the 2009 amendment. My father was born in Canada in the 1930's and moved to the U.S. in the 50's. I was born in the U.S. in the 60's and so would be Canadian by birth (1st generation). My kids were born before the 2009 update. I want to know if I they are Canadian by birth, and if I can apply for their Canadian citizenship certificates.

TIA
 

Mr.Yoso

Newbie
Aug 19, 2015
7
0
Changes to citizenship rules


Changes to citizenship rules around who is or who is not a Canadian citizen were affected when the Citizenship Act was amended in 2009 and 2015.

Changes made to the Citizenship Act in 2009 and 2015 gave Canadian citizenship to certain people who lost it and recognized others as citizens for the first time. The following information may help you find out who did or did not become a Canadian citizen under the 2009 and 2015 changes to the citizenship rules.

Note: These changes did not take Canadian citizenship away from any person who was a Canadian citizen immediately before the rules came into effect.

In 2015, you became a Canadian citizen if you were:
•born or naturalized in Canada before January 1, 1947 (April 1, 1949, in the case of Newfoundland and Labrador) but ceased to be a British subject and did not become a citizen on either of those dates;
•a British subject ordinarily resident in Canada on January 1, 1947 (April 1, 1949, in the case of Newfoundland and Labrador) but were not eligible for Canadian citizenship on January 1, 1947 (on or before April 1, 1949 in the case of Newfoundland and Labrador);
•born outside Canada before January 1, 1947 (April 1, 1949 in the case of Newfoundland and Labrador) in the first generation to a parent described above;
•born outside Canada in the first generation before January 1, 1947 (or April 1, 1949, in the case of Newfoundland and Labrador) to a parent who became a citizen on January 1, 1947 (or April 1, 1949, in the case of Newfoundland and Labrador) and you did not become a citizen on either of these dates; or
•foreign-born and adopted before January 1, 1947, and at least one adoptive parent became a Canadian citizen on January 1, 1947 (or April 1, 1949, in the case of Newfoundland and Labrador for adoptions that took place prior to April 1, 1949); and the adoptive parent is eligible to pass on citizenship by descent.

In 2015, you did not become a Canadian citizen if you:
•were born outside Canada after the first generation (unless one of the exceptions to the first generation limit to citizenship by descent apply);
•renounced your Canadian citizenship or British subject status;
•had your British subject status revoked; or
•had your Canadian citizenship revoked by the government because it was obtained by fraud.

In 2009, you became a Canadian citizen if you:
•became a Canadian citizen on January 1, 1947 and subsequently lost your Canadian citizenship;
•were born or naturalized in Canada on or after January 1, 1947 and lost your Canadian citizenship;
•were born outside Canada in the first generation to a Canadian parent on or after January 1, 1947 and you lost or never had citizenship due to former citizenship provisions; or
•were foreign-born and adopted by Canadian parents on or after January 1, 1947.

In 2009, you did not become a Canadian citizen if you:
• did not become a citizen on January 1, 1947;
•were born in Canada but were not a Canadian citizen at birth because when you were born, one of your parents was a foreign diplomat and neither of your parents was a permanent resident or Canadian citizen;
•as an adult, renounced your citizenship with the Canadian government;
•had your citizenship revoked by the government because it was obtained by fraud;
•were born outside Canada to a Canadian parent, were not already a Canadian citizen or you had lost your citizenship in the past, and you were born in the second or subsequent generation (this includes people who failed to retain citizenship).

Amendments to the Citizenship Act limit citizenship by descent

On April 17, 2009, the rules for Canadian citizenship changed for persons born outside Canada to Canadian parents and who were not already Canadian citizens when the rules changed.

These rules did not take Canadian citizenship away from any person who was a Canadian citizen immediately before the rules came into effect.

Canadian citizenship by birth outside Canada to a Canadian citizen parent (citizenship by descent) is now limited to the first generation born outside Canada.

This means that, in general, persons who were not already Canadian citizens immediately before April 17, 2009 and who were born outside Canada to a Canadian parent are not Canadian if:
•their Canadian parent was also born outside Canada to a Canadian parent (the person is therefore the second or subsequent generation born outside Canada), or
•their Canadian parent was granted Canadian citizenship under section 5.1, the adoption provisions of the Citizenship Act (the person is therefore the second generation born outside Canada)

unless their Canadian parent or grandparent was employed as described in one of the following exceptions to the first generation limit.

Exceptions to the first generation limit

The first generation limit to citizenship does not apply to a person born outside Canada in the second or subsequent generation if:
•at the time of the person’s birth, their Canadian parent was employed outside Canada in or with the Canadian Armed Forces, the federal public administration or the public service of a province or territory, other than as a locally engaged person (a crown servant);
•at the time of their Canadian parent’s birth or adoption, the person’s Canadian grandparent was employed outside Canada in or with the Canadian Armed Forces, the federal public administration or public service of a province or territory, other than as a locally engaged person (a crown servant).

The rules may also affect children adopted by Canadian parents outside Canada, depending on how the child obtained, or will obtain, citizenship.

Persons born to a Canadian parent who are not eligible for citizenship by descent due to the first generation limit may apply for and obtain permanent resident status and subsequently submit an application for a grant of citizenship under section 5 of the Citizenship Act.
 

redpill

Newbie
Oct 27, 2015
3
0
Thanks, I've read those rules, which are quite confusing to me. The closest thing I've found to my case is an answer to a question on CIC's website.

The person's question was:

I am Canadian. My children were born outside Canada. Are they Canadian?

And CIC's answer:

From that it would seem that they would be citizens since both were 2nd generation born before 2009.

But I am definitely not sure I am interpreting it correctly.
 

Mr.Yoso

Newbie
Aug 19, 2015
7
0
best bet.. is to complete all your documents and apply for citizenship certificate. you will get direct answer to your questions. I hear u. this new rules are confusing.
 

paw339

Star Member
May 28, 2014
185
13
As Mr Yoso says you could just apply for citizenship certificate for your children and then you will be given a definite answer, however my understanding is your children are not Canadians.

One option you have is as a Canadian you could move to Canada with your family and then you will be able to immediately apply for Canadian citizenship for your children without having to wait.
 

redpill

Newbie
Oct 27, 2015
3
0
After spending ages searching for an answer i think I actually stumbled upon it on wikipedia under the Canadian nationality law entry.

2009 amendments to the Citizenship Act
In a scenario, the new rules would apply like this: A child is born in Brazil in 2005 (before the new rules came in effect) to a Canadian citizen father, who himself is a born abroad citizen by descent, and a Brazilian mother who is only a Permanent Resident of Canada. Child automatically becomes a Canadian citizen at birth. Another child born after 17 April 2009 in the same scenario would not be considered a Canadian citizen. The child is considered born past "first generation limitation" and the parents (the father) would have to sponsor the child to Canada to become a Permanent Resident (a lengthy process which may take from one to four years[citation needed]). Once the Permanent Residency is granted, a Canadian parent can apply for Canadian citizenship on behalf of the child, without the required three-year-residency rule, however.[14]

Thanks everyone.
 

screech339

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Apr 2, 2013
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redpill said:
I am trying to determine if my two children are Canadian citizens by birth. The "Am I a Canadian Citizen" tool on the cic website is currently being updated and I can't figure out the legalize in the 2009 amendment. My father was born in Canada in the 1930's and moved to the U.S. in the 50's. I was born in the U.S. in the 60's and so would be Canadian by birth (1st generation). My kids were born before the 2009 update. I want to know if I they are Canadian by birth, and if I can apply for their Canadian citizenship certificates.

TIA
Technically since you born outside Canada to a Canadian parent, you are still considered to be 2nd generation Canadian. Since your kids were born before 2009 citizenship rule, they will also have citizenship. They are still considered to be 2nd Generation Canadian like you.

CIC defines anyone born inside Canada and naturalized Canadians to be 1st generation Canadian.

CIC defines 2nd generation Canadians to be anyone born outside Canada to Canadian born or naturalized Canadian parent.

Your kids will not be able to pass on Canadian citizenship to their children (your grandchildren).
 

saria1

Hero Member
May 22, 2014
739
33
British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
Ottawa
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
October 28, 2014
Doc's Request.
None
AOR Received.
January 16, 2015
File Transfer...
January 23, 2015
Med's Request
Upfront
Med's Done....
October 27, 2014
Interview........
None
Passport Req..
None
VISA ISSUED...
June 17, 2015
LANDED..........
June 30, 2015
redpill said:
After spending ages searching for an answer i think I actually stumbled upon it on wikipedia under the Canadian nationality law entry.

2009 amendments to the Citizenship Act
In a scenario, the new rules would apply like this: A child is born in Brazil in 2005 (before the new rules came in effect) to a Canadian citizen father, who himself is a born abroad citizen by descent, and a Brazilian mother who is only a Permanent Resident of Canada. Child automatically becomes a Canadian citizen at birth. Another child born after 17 April 2009 in the same scenario would not be considered a Canadian citizen. The child is considered born past "first generation limitation" and the parents (the father) would have to sponsor the child to Canada to become a Permanent Resident (a lengthy process which may take from one to four years[citation needed]). Once the Permanent Residency is granted, a Canadian parent can apply for Canadian citizenship on behalf of the child, without the required three-year-residency rule, however.[14]

Thanks everyone.
The easy answer is, if you had your proof of citizenship before the law changed in 2009, then your kids citizens. If you received your proof AFTER the law change, then they are not Canadians. I received my proof last year, I was born in the US to a naturalized Canadian father. My son, born in 2008, does not receive Canadian citizenship from me, since I was recognized as a Canadian after the law change. I had to sponsor him to Canada as a PR and now we're waiting on Sydney to process his grant of citizenship application.
 

screech339

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2013
7,887
552
Category........
Visa Office......
Vegreville
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
14-08-2012
AOR Received.
20-11-2012
Med's Done....
18-07-2012
Interview........
17-06-2013
LANDED..........
17-06-2013
saria1 said:
The easy answer is, if you had your proof of citizenship before the law changed in 2009, then your kids citizens. If you received your proof AFTER the law change, then they are not Canadians. I received my proof last year, I was born in the US to a naturalized Canadian father. My son, born in 2008, does not receive Canadian citizenship from me, since I was recognized as a Canadian after the law change. I had to sponsor him to Canada as a PR and now we're waiting on Sydney to process his grant of citizenship application.
Technically you were born Canadian by birth regardless of when you got your citizenship certificate. If you look closely to your certificate, it would say Canadian since "date", your birth date. So since you are canadian at your birth date according to certificate, you were canadian at the time of your son's birth. It shouldnt matter when you gotten proof, you were canadian all along. And since he was born before the new 2009 rule, he should have gotten canadian citizenship. I think CIC seriously dropped the ball on this.
 

saria1

Hero Member
May 22, 2014
739
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British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
Ottawa
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
October 28, 2014
Doc's Request.
None
AOR Received.
January 16, 2015
File Transfer...
January 23, 2015
Med's Request
Upfront
Med's Done....
October 27, 2014
Interview........
None
Passport Req..
None
VISA ISSUED...
June 17, 2015
LANDED..........
June 30, 2015
screech339 said:
Technically you were born Canadian by birth regardless of when you got your citizenship certificate. If you look closely to your certificate, it would say Canadian since "date", your birth date. So since you are canadian at your birth date according to certificate, you were canadian at the time of your son's birth. It shouldnt matter when you gotten proof, you were canadian all along. And since he was born before the new 2009 rule, he should have gotten canadian citizenship. I think CIC seriously dropped the ball on this.
I wish! No, in the letter that came with my citizenship cert, it clearly said any of my children will not receive Canadian citizenship from me. I thought the same thing you did, until that letter arrived. It's all good, we're up here now, living happily in BC, he's going to a great school, and I hope they have his grant of citizenship completed by the end of the summer.
 

screech339

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2013
7,887
552
Category........
Visa Office......
Vegreville
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
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AOR Received.
20-11-2012
Med's Done....
18-07-2012
Interview........
17-06-2013
LANDED..........
17-06-2013
saria1 said:
I wish! No, in the letter that came with my citizenship cert, it clearly said any of my children will not receive Canadian citizenship from me. I thought the same thing you did, until that letter arrived. It's all good, we're up here now, living happily in BC, he's going to a great school, and I hope they have his grant of citizenship completed by the end of the summer.
You shouldnt have to deal with that. This is CIC's mess in not following the letter of the law. Whoever agent dealt with your case obviously didnt apply the law correctly. The agent obviously applied the law as if your son was born after the 2009 law change which is the wrong way.

There was a case of a 99 year old woman in ontario who was finally granted citizenship after being denied because the agent at CIC wasnt fully aware of the new citizenship law which granted Citizenship to Lost Canadians. The agent was incompetent as well as the agent who handled your case.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/3mpe8m/woman_99_denied_citizenship_despite_living_in/?
 

saria1

Hero Member
May 22, 2014
739
33
British Columbia
Category........
Visa Office......
Ottawa
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
October 28, 2014
Doc's Request.
None
AOR Received.
January 16, 2015
File Transfer...
January 23, 2015
Med's Request
Upfront
Med's Done....
October 27, 2014
Interview........
None
Passport Req..
None
VISA ISSUED...
June 17, 2015
LANDED..........
June 30, 2015
screech339 said:
You shouldnt have to deal with that. This is CIC's mess in not following the letter of the law. Whoever agent dealt with your case obviously didnt apply the law correctly. The agent obviously applied the law as if your son was born after the 2009 law change which is the wrong way.

There was a case of a 99 year old woman in ontario who was finally granted citizenship after being denied because the agent at CIC wasnt fully aware of the new citizenship law which granted Citizenship to Lost Canadians. The agent was incompetent as well as the agent who handled your case.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/3mpe8m/woman_99_denied_citizenship_despite_living_in/?
It was the change in the law in 2009 that allowed me to claim my Canadian citizenship. I was born in 73. So if the law change allowed you to claim your citizenship, then you can't pass that onto your child born abroad.
 

screech339

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2013
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552
Category........
Visa Office......
Vegreville
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
14-08-2012
AOR Received.
20-11-2012
Med's Done....
18-07-2012
Interview........
17-06-2013
LANDED..........
17-06-2013
saria1 said:
It was the change in the law in 2009 that allowed me to claim my Canadian citizenship. I was born in 73. So if the law change allowed you to claim your citizenship, then you can't pass that onto your child born abroad.
Sounded like your father never registered you as Canadian born aboard to canadian authorities while in US or you had it but didnt file papers to retain your citizenship before 28. That would make sense. Your son couldnt get citizenship because you didnt have canadian citizenship at time of his birth. You got it back after the 2009 change.
 

alphazip

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May 23, 2013
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redpill said:
I am trying to determine if my two children are Canadian citizens by birth. The "Am I a Canadian Citizen" tool on the cic website is currently being updated and I can't figure out the legalize in the 2009 amendment. My father was born in Canada in the 1930's and moved to the U.S. in the 50's. I was born in the U.S. in the 60's and so would be Canadian by birth (1st generation). My kids were born before the 2009 update. I want to know if I they are Canadian by birth, and if I can apply for their Canadian citizenship certificates.

TIA
Same misinformation from screech that I've seen in other threads. Whether your kids (2nd generation born outside of Canada) were born before or after 2009 is not the determining factor here (though having children born after 2009 would mean that they are definitely not Canadian citizens). The main issue in a situation like this is: were you a Canadian citizen when your children were born before 2009? If so, then they are Canadian.

If, however, your father became a U.S. citizen before you were born OR while you were a minor, then he lost his Canadian citizenship at that time and did not pass it on to you, or, if you did inherit it, you lost it as a child*. In addition, even if he had not become a U.S. citizen, he would have had to register your birth with Canada when you were an infant (or you could have done it yourself up until 2004). In any case, you (and your father, if still living) would have become Canadian citizens on April 17, 2009. That would not, however, give citizenship to your children, even if born before 2009, because (as of 2009) the inheritance of citizenship is limited to the 1st generation born abroad. This limitation affects everyone, even those born before 2009, unless the individual was already a Canadian citizen on April 17, 2009.

In summary, please answer these questions:
1) Did your father become a U.S. citizen before you were born or while you were a minor? If so, your children are not Canadian citizens.
2) Was your birth registered with Canadian authorities? If not, your children are not Canadian citizens.

*Caveat: you would only have lost citizenship if your birth had been registered. Otherwise, you didn't have Canadian citizenship to lose.
 

alphazip

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May 23, 2013
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Maybe I can put this in a form that screech can understand.

A law that took effect on April 17, 2009 returned Canadian citizenship to those who had lost it (such as by taking a foreign citizenship before 1977). It also gave Canadian citizenship to the children born abroad of persons born in Canada. From then on, though, citizenship was to be restricted to the first generation born abroad. However, anyone who was already a citizen on April 17, 2009 was allowed to keep his/her citizenship. In other words, citizenship was not removed from anyone who already had it, no matter how many generations removed from Canada.

Does this mean that everyone born before 2009 to a descendant of a person born in Canada is a Canadian citizen? NO

There are numerous circumstances where a person born before 2009 to a grandparent, great-grandparent, etc., of a Canadian-born person does not inherit citizenship.

Here are a couple examples:

1) Tom is born in Canada in 1930. He moves to the USA in 1950 and becomes a U.S. citizen. He has a son, Joe, born in 1960. Tom does not register Joe's birth with Canada...he can't...Tom is not a citizen. In 1980 Joe has a daughter, Barbara. On April 17, 2009, Tom and Joe become Canadian citizens. Barbara does not, even though she was born before 2009, because she was not born to a Canadian citizen.

2) Phil was born in Canada in 1950. He moved to Mexico but never became a Mexican citizen. His wife gave birth in Mexico to a son, Ramon, in 1979. In 2008, Ramon had a daughter, Cristina. In 2011, Ramon applied for a Canadian citizenship card for himself and Cristina. He was surprised to be denied. The reason: Ramon was required to retain his citizenship by his 28th birthday and he had not. So, he and Cristina, despite both being born before 2009, are not Canadian citizens.