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Inadmissiblity Question ~ Looking for similar Alberta / BC case

Fuzu

Star Member
Oct 6, 2021
98
1
@armoured @Ponga @scylla @dpenabill

would really appreciate thoughts on the judicial review process and if I have chance in that if my response to a pfl is refused. In above comments I detail my reasoning and particular circumstances. Thank you again for engaging in this thread.
 

scylla

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Thank you for your answers gentlemen just one last follow up question. Let’s say my response to PFL gets rejected, can I seek judicial review using lawyers ? If yes, I am just thinking how in the right mind a judge could rule in favor of IRCC since it seems to be crystal clear I was not charged or convicted under the criminal code hence by law I did not make any misrepresentation by ticking no to criminal conviction. A clean police record would act as an evidence in court against ircc in this case. Please let me know your thoughts @scylla @Ponga @dpenabill
Why do so many people assume everyone here is a man...
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
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I am seeking a risk assessment for the study permit application question based on the broad wording of the question. Unlike the study permit application, the question in the PR application is not as broad.
You are trying to do two things: self-lawyer, and internet lawyer. And on top of that, searching for information and opinions that supports your pre-conceived ideas.

I think posters here are being quite consistent in telling you: bad idea.

Better idea: seeing a professional.

I've said all I can, really. If you think you've got it figured out - good luck to you.
 

Fuzu

Star Member
Oct 6, 2021
98
1
You are trying to do two things: self-lawyer, and internet lawyer. And on top of that, searching for information and opinions that supports your pre-conceived ideas.

I think posters here are being quite consistent in telling you: bad idea.

Better idea: seeing a professional.

I've said all I can, really. If you think you've got it figured out - good luck to you.
 

Fuzu

Star Member
Oct 6, 2021
98
1
You are trying to do two things: self-lawyer, and internet lawyer. And on top of that, searching for information and opinions that supports your pre-conceived ideas.

I think posters here are being quite consistent in telling you: bad idea.

Better idea: seeing a professional.

I've said all I can, really. If you think you've got it figured out - good luck to you.
Thank you for wishing me luck
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
93,222
20,673
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
@armoured @Ponga @scylla @dpenabill

would really appreciate thoughts on the judicial review process and if I have chance in that if my response to a pfl is refused. In above comments I detail my reasoning and particular circumstances. Thank you again for engaging in this thread.
There's always a chance but again, no one can tell you how much of a chance. You're asking questions that are legal advice and no one here is a lawyer.

I've already given you my thoughts and I don't have anything to add to this. If you're not satisfied with the legal advice you've gotten to date, then I would look into getting a consult with a new lawyer.
 
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Fuzu

Star Member
Oct 6, 2021
98
1
There's always a chance but again, no one can tell you how much of a chance. You're asking questions that are legal advice and no one here is a lawyer.

I've already given you my thoughts and I don't have anything to add to this. If you're not satisfied with the legal advice you've gotten to date, then I would look into getting a consult with a new lawyer.
Thank you @scylla happy women’s day
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,302
3,064
Some Highlights:

A Foreign National (FN) is inadmissible if they have been convicted of any hybrid or indictable offence. Like a PR they are also inadmissible for serious criminality if convicted of an offence which could be punished by ten years imprisonment, but again a conviction for any hybrid or indictable offence will make a FN inadmissible. Convictions for two summary offences (pure summary offences, those that cannot be prosecuted by indictment) will render a FN inadmissible.

FNs are screened for criminal related inadmissibility more thoroughly, and enforcement is significantly more strict than it is for PRs.

And, since FNs only have temporary status in Canada, they generally need to make applications that will require disclosure of crime-related matters, in contrast to PRs who can often avoid bringing criminal charges to IRCC's attention . . . such that it appears many PRs are not subjected to inadmissibility proceedings even if they have been convicted of a solitary, isolated offence constituting serious criminality unless they are involved in multiple criminal offences, or involved in more serious instances (such as driving while impaired resulting in injuries to other persons), or the case is otherwise notorious or in some way high profile.


I know it's a serious offence however the officer on scene along with some lawyers I spoke to who specializes in criminal defence confirmed for first time offence it is 100% NOT a criminal charge and does not go on your criminal record in Alberta, Canada ( Similar to BC ) They gave me an administrative penalty ( harsh consequences, I deserve it) under the Traffic safety Act.
As others have observed, inadmissibility is a complex subject with many, many variables. As you have observed, driving while impaired is considered a very serious matter in Canada, as illustrated by the fact that the law allows for the imposition of imprisonment for up to TEN YEARS as a penalty.

This is not "talk to lawyers" stuff. This is hire (pay for) lawyers to specifically review the specific facts of your case (which means not just YOUR account of the facts, but at the least reviewing in detail whatever records there of the matter). Then rely on the lawyer or lawyers you have hired (hired after you have done enough homework to be confident you have hired competent, reputable, and experienced lawyers).

You referenced me multiple times. I am no expert. While I have followed issues in regards to serious criminal inadmissibility applicable to Permanent Residents, it appears you are NOT a PR. What constitutes serious criminality is defined the same for PRs and Foreign Nationals, but FNs are also inadmissible for "criminality" as defined in Section 36(2) IRPA. You have quoted section 36(1), the serious criminality provisions. But you are also subject to the far lower threshold for inadmissibility prescribed in Section 36(2).

As much as I have followed and researched cases involving serious criminality as applied to PRs, I am way, way shy of being an expert on that subject. In contrast, I have NOT at all followed (not for many years anyway) how the inadmissibility for criminality provisions apply to FNs.

In other words, concurring with others here, get assistance and advice from a competent lawyer, a lawyer you have hired to actually give you specific advice based on ALL the available information . . . and knowledge of the applicable law as well.

All that said: the main thing is whether you have been convicted of a criminal "offence" in Canada, as defined by an Act of Parliament. "Violations" of provincial traffic provisions are NOT "offences." You can respond to questions accordingly, if the question is about convictions. I have not been paying any attention to IRCC transactions or applications by FNs. I do not know what questions are asked. The questions asked are often broader in scope than just what would constitute grounds for a determination of inadmissibility based on criminality.

Note, for example, technically a FN will be inadmissible if they have driven a vehicle while impaired in the U.S. even if they were not charged, let alone not convicted (not sure anyone would fess up to this absent some kind of record of the incident, but just doing the act itself meets the definition of criminal inadmissibility prescribed in Section 36(2)(c) IRPA).

Let’s say I tick no to the criminal conviction question since it’s not a criminal charge ( lawyers confirmed this ) but don’t disclose the offence although it’s best to do so. The officer sees the offence, gets confused and gives me a procedural fairness letter for misrepresentation. Do you think I have a good chance to respond to it and succeed with the help of a lawyer explaining IRPA law and how a conviction under criminal code is needed by law? I know there is two ways to approach this; was just wondering if the second way of non-disclosure and then later responding to a procedural fairness letter is also an okay strategy although not the best?
First part first:
"Let’s say I tick no to the criminal conviction question since it’s not a criminal charge ( lawyers confirmed this ) but don’t disclose the offence although it’s best to do so."​

Is it an "offence" or not? If it is an "offence" it for sure will need to be disclosed. However, a provincial traffic citation for a violation of provincial regulations is generally NOT an offence (even though the same conduct could result in the Crown prosecuting it as an offence). My sense is you are referencing a violation, NOT an offence as such.

Even if there is some kind of charge that is NOT an offence, however, that does not necessarily mean there is no need to disclose. Be sure to read the questions carefully and answer them as best you can based on what you know and understand. As previously noted, the questions asked are typically broad enough to require disclosure outside (in addition to) what would constitute grounds for inadmissibility.

As long as you answer the questions honestly there is almost no likelihood an officer "gets confused." And unless there is something in your record that shows you have been charged with a criminal offence, and you did not disclose that offence, there is near zero likelihood an officer would allege misrepresentation. Contrary to the occasional rant otherwise, generally IRCC officials know what they are doing and they do it competently. There can be disagreement with some of their conclusions and actions, and they make mistakes, but for the most part they do a good job figuring this stuff out.
 
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Fuzu

Star Member
Oct 6, 2021
98
1
Some Highlights:

A Foreign National (FN) is inadmissible if they have been convicted of any hybrid or indictable offence. Like a PR they are also inadmissible for serious criminality if convicted of an offence which could be punished by ten years imprisonment, but again a conviction for any hybrid or indictable offence will make a FN inadmissible. Convictions for two summary offences (pure summary offences, those that cannot be prosecuted by indictment) will render a FN inadmissible.

FNs are screened for criminal related inadmissibility more thoroughly, and enforcement is significantly more strict than it is for PRs.

And, since FNs only have temporary status in Canada, they generally need to make applications that will require disclosure of crime-related matters, in contrast to PRs who can often avoid bringing criminal charges to IRCC's attention . . . such that it appears many PRs are not subjected to inadmissibility proceedings even if they have been convicted of a solitary, isolated offence constituting serious criminality unless they are involved in multiple criminal offences, or involved in more serious instances (such as driving while impaired resulting in injuries to other persons), or the case is otherwise notorious or in some way high profile.




As others have observed, inadmissibility is a complex subject with many, many variables. As you have observed, driving while impaired is considered a very serious matter in Canada, as illustrated by the fact that the law allows for the imposition of imprisonment for up to TEN YEARS as a penalty.

This is not "talk to lawyers" stuff. This is hire (pay for) lawyers to specifically review the specific facts of your case (which means not just YOUR account of the facts, but at the least reviewing in detail whatever records there of the matter). Then rely on the lawyer or lawyers you have hired (hired after you have done enough homework to be confident you have hired competent, reputable, and experienced lawyers).

You referenced me multiple times. I am no expert. While I have followed issues in regards to serious criminal inadmissibility applicable to Permanent Residents, it appears you are NOT a PR. What constitutes serious criminality is defined the same for PRs and Foreign Nationals, but FNs are also inadmissible for "criminality" as defined in Section 36(2) IRPA. You have quoted section 36(1), the serious criminality provisions. But you are also subject to the far lower threshold for inadmissibility prescribed in Section 36(2).

As much as I have followed and researched cases involving serious criminality as applied to PRs, I am way, way shy of being an expert on that subject. In contrast, I have NOT at all followed (not for many years anyway) how the inadmissibility for criminality provisions apply to FNs.

In other words, concurring with others here, get assistance and advice from a competent lawyer, a lawyer you have hired to actually give you specific advice based on ALL the available information . . . and knowledge of the applicable law as well.

All that said: the main thing is whether you have been convicted of a criminal "offence" in Canada, as defined by an Act of Parliament. "Violations" of provincial traffic provisions are NOT "offences." You can respond to questions accordingly, if the question is about convictions. I have not been paying any attention to IRCC transactions or applications by FNs. I do not know what questions are asked. The questions asked are often broader in scope than just what would constitute grounds for a determination of inadmissibility based on criminality.

Note, for example, technically a FN will be inadmissible if they have driven a vehicle while impaired in the U.S. even if they were not charged, let alone not convicted (not sure anyone would fess up to this absent some kind of record of the incident, but just doing the act itself meets the definition of criminal inadmissibility prescribed in Section 36(2)(c) IRPA).



First part first:
"Let’s say I tick no to the criminal conviction question since it’s not a criminal charge ( lawyers confirmed this ) but don’t disclose the offence although it’s best to do so."​

Is it an "offence" or not? If it is an "offence" it for sure will need to be disclosed. However, a provincial traffic citation for a violation of provincial regulations is generally NOT an offence (even though the same conduct could result in the Crown prosecuting it as an offence). My sense is you are referencing a violation, NOT an offence as such.

Even if there is some kind of charge that is NOT an offence, however, that does not necessarily mean there is no need to disclose. Be sure to read the questions carefully and answer them as best you can based on what you know and understand. As previously noted, the questions asked are typically broad enough to require disclosure outside (in addition to) what would constitute grounds for inadmissibility.

As long as you answer the questions honestly there is almost no likelihood an officer "gets confused." And unless there is something in your record that shows you have been charged with a criminal offence, and you did not disclose that offence, there is near zero likelihood an officer would allege misrepresentation. Contrary to the occasional rant otherwise, generally IRCC officials know what they are doing and they do it competently. There can be disagreement with some of their conclusions and actions, and they make mistakes, but for the most part they do a good job figuring this stuff out.

Thank you, Depenabill, for sharing your insights. I truly value your input, especially regarding the lawyer aspect. I've already had one consultation but plan to seek further advice. Your final paragraph is particularly encouraging because you state I should be good if the IRC’s officer sees no criminal record or charges. After waiting for some time, I recently obtained a criminal record check with fingerprints from my local RCMP, which showed no criminal record. I also spoke to some officers who confirmed I was not charged with a crime. It's interesting how the law operates in a black-and-white manner. You're correct that, under IRPA law 36.2.c committing the same act of impaired driving in the USA or any country would render someone inadmissible to Canada, even without a conviction, whereas for acts in Canada, a conviction is necessary as per 36.1.a and 36.2.a. It's a peculiar and somewhat unjust aspect of the law, but that's the reality. I recently learned from this forum about someone who obtained permanent residency despite receiving an immediate roadside prohibition in British Columbia, a similar administrative penalty for impaired driving over 0.08, which gives me some hope.
 
Last edited:

PR0099

Member
Mar 27, 2024
12
1
@armoured @Ponga @scylla @dpenabill
Hi All, would really appreciate your thoughts here in my case.

I have submitted my work permit application couple of months ago and I was arrested last week for the domestic assault.

Work permit application progress so far-
Eligibility - not started yet
Background check - in progress
Criminality - Passed

Fingerprints for criminal record and first court date are scheduled this week, Do you think this arrest would result in my work permit refusal or would they pause the processing until this assault case is sorted out in the court?
 

Simba112

VIP Member
Mar 25, 2021
4,394
1,607
@armoured @Ponga @scylla @dpenabill
Hi All, would really appreciate your thoughts here in my case.

I have submitted my work permit application couple of months ago and I was arrested last week for the domestic assault.

Work permit application progress so far-
Eligibility - not started yet
Background check - in progress
Criminality - Passed

Fingerprints for criminal record and first court date are scheduled this week, Do you think this arrest would result in my work permit refusal or would they pause the processing until this assault case is sorted out in the court?
Was it pgwp, BOWP or Close work permit?
 

Ponga

VIP Member
Oct 22, 2013
10,150
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@armoured @Ponga @scylla @dpenabill
Hi All, would really appreciate your thoughts here in my case.

I have submitted my work permit application couple of months ago and I was arrested last week for the domestic assault.

Work permit application progress so far-
Eligibility - not started yet
Background check - in progress
Criminality - Passed

Fingerprints for criminal record and first court date are scheduled this week, Do you think this arrest would result in my work permit refusal or would they pause the processing until this assault case is sorted out in the court?
This could make you inadmissible to Canada if your arrest leads to a conviction.

https://bsbcriminallaw.com/understanding-the-punishments-for-domestic-violence-in-canada/

"Domestic assault is a serious charge, and navigating the legal landscape can be challenging."