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PR renewal - Days spent abroad

awells32

Newbie
Mar 12, 2024
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0
Hey guys,

New here. I know this topic has been covered by others but referring to my personal circumstances.

I am a fairly recent PR living in Vancouver, landed in November 2022. My PR card is therefore up for renewal in Nov 2027.

I am an audio engineer in the touring music industry and as such travel worldwide for work. Often for months at a time. I am the sole director and full time employee of a Canadian registered LTD company.

I am fairly confident that I will not meet the 730 days required to renew my PR card in 2027. Currently I travel on average between 7-9 months a year outside of Canada for work. Whenever not working I return to Vancouver and continue to work locally when contracts arise.

My question here is does my touring work outside of Canada count as days spent in Canada towards PR? This seems an extremely grey area. As I work for a Canadian company, pay taxes in Canada and essentially return to Canada as soon as a particular contract or a tour is over. Would this be a situation that an immigration officer would accept the circumstances for being under the required days for renewal?

Thanks in advance for your help.
 

Ponga

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Oct 22, 2013
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Hey guys,

New here. I know this topic has been covered by others but referring to my personal circumstances.

I am a fairly recent PR living in Vancouver, landed in November 2022. My PR card is therefore up for renewal in Nov 2027.

I am an audio engineer in the touring music industry and as such travel worldwide for work. Often for months at a time. I am the sole director and full time employee of a Canadian registered LTD company.

I am fairly confident that I will not meet the 730 days required to renew my PR card in 2027. Currently I travel on average between 7-9 months a year outside of Canada for work. Whenever not working I return to Vancouver and continue to work locally when contracts arise.

My question here is does my touring work outside of Canada count as days spent in Canada towards PR? This seems an extremely grey area. As I work for a Canadian company, pay taxes in Canada and essentially return to Canada as soon as a particular contract or a tour is over. Would this be a situation that an immigration officer would accept the circumstances for being under the required days for renewal?

Thanks in advance for your help.
I would say yes, based on the following:
https://www.ircc.canada.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1466&top=10

Can my time abroad count toward my permanent resident status?

It depends on what you do and who you travel with. Your time outside of Canada may count toward your permanent resident status if you meet 1 of these conditions:
You work outside Canada
You need to work full-time for:
  • a Canadian business or organization, or
  • the Canadian federal, provincial or territorial government

---

Having said that, I do suspect this is something that is not seen a lot around here, but...maybe I'm wrong. The passive use of `may' in the first sentence may be the Achilles Heel.
 

awells32

Newbie
Mar 12, 2024
4
0
Thanks for your reply.

I do believe I meet the requirements for mitigating circumstances. My concern was that the company is small, with only 1 employee. I am the sole director and only employee. I’m not sure if this plays any part.

As mentioned the only reason I would not meet the 730 is due to carrying out my business which by its nature involves working abroad.

Would I need to provide evidence of employment?
 

Ponga

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Oct 22, 2013
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Thanks for your reply.

I do believe I meet the requirements for mitigating circumstances. My concern was that the company is small, with only 1 employee. I am the sole director and only employee. I’m not sure if this plays any part.

As mentioned the only reason I would not meet the 730 is due to carrying out my business which by its nature involves working abroad.

Would I need to provide evidence of employment?
Thank you for the additional info. That does seem to cloudy the water a bit.

How did you obtain your PR status? What it, by chance, through the Self Employed Persons Program:
https://atimmigrationlaw.com/immigrate-to-canada-as-a-self-employed-artist-or-athlete/

If so, IRCC may have more empathy to your situation. I suggest you wait for others that may have actual experience in responding to other, similar posts.

Good luck! And pleeaasee...`more cowbell' in the FOH mix. :p
Even if you're the monitor engineer, give `em more cowbell.
 

awells32

Newbie
Mar 12, 2024
4
0
So my originally application was actually through the Federal Skilled Workers Express Entry program. Not heard of the Self Employed Persons program till just now.

Appreciate the advice. I’m actually a systems engineer but still nobody ever needs more cowbell!
 

scylla

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Hey guys,

New here. I know this topic has been covered by others but referring to my personal circumstances.

I am a fairly recent PR living in Vancouver, landed in November 2022. My PR card is therefore up for renewal in Nov 2027.

I am an audio engineer in the touring music industry and as such travel worldwide for work. Often for months at a time. I am the sole director and full time employee of a Canadian registered LTD company.

I am fairly confident that I will not meet the 730 days required to renew my PR card in 2027. Currently I travel on average between 7-9 months a year outside of Canada for work. Whenever not working I return to Vancouver and continue to work locally when contracts arise.

My question here is does my touring work outside of Canada count as days spent in Canada towards PR? This seems an extremely grey area. As I work for a Canadian company, pay taxes in Canada and essentially return to Canada as soon as a particular contract or a tour is over. Would this be a situation that an immigration officer would accept the circumstances for being under the required days for renewal?

Thanks in advance for your help.
You might find the IRCC operating manual helpful. Start reading on page 27.

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ircc/migration/ircc/english/resources/manuals/op/op10-eng.pdf
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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New here. I know this topic has been covered by others but referring to my personal circumstances.

I am a fairly recent PR living in Vancouver, landed in November 2022. My PR card is therefore up for renewal in Nov 2027.

I am an audio engineer in the touring music industry and as such travel worldwide for work. Often for months at a time. I am the sole director and full time employee of a Canadian registered LTD company.

I am fairly confident that I will not meet the 730 days required to renew my PR card in 2027. Currently I travel on average between 7-9 months a year outside of Canada for work. Whenever not working I return to Vancouver and continue to work locally when contracts arise.

My question here is does my touring work outside of Canada count as days spent in Canada towards PR? This seems an extremely grey area. As I work for a Canadian company, pay taxes in Canada and essentially return to Canada as soon as a particular contract or a tour is over. Would this be a situation that an immigration officer would accept the circumstances for being under the required days for renewal?
Yep. Grey area. There are a number of details that will matter.

Caution: this is a tricky exception and especially tricky for anyone working for themselves (or even working for a small family business). While it is something of an exaggeration, one might say that anyone who needs the working-abroad-for-a-Canadian-business credit to comply with the Residency Obligation probably does not qualify for the credit. (Again, this is an exaggeration, recognizing that many PRs do qualify for and rely on this credit; but many expecting to get this credit do not qualify for it.)

While you acknowledge awareness there are extensive discussions here about getting Residency Obligation credit for days working abroad for a Canadian business, it is not clear how much homework you have done toward understanding the issues involved. Many of the discussions here at least reference situations quite similar to yours. These scenarios come up rather often, largely because more than a few attempt to get around the RO by ostensibly establishing a business in Canada that in turn assigns them to work abroad, which efforts tend to crash and burn.

Moreover, in particular, it appears that you have not even reviewed the basic information that IRCC provides, including sources like the appendix in guides for PR card and PR Travel Document applications, "Appendix A: Residency Obligation," which has been frequently referenced, cited, quoted, and linked in many threads here; see https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#appendixA

In particular, for example, you ask "Would I need to provide evidence of employment?" This is clearly answered in Appendix A, where it describes the "supporting documents" that need to be submitted to show that one complies with the PR Residency Obligation when relying on this credit; see the information under the title "Situation A. Employment outside Canada." It describes, for example, what information needs to be included "in a letter signed by an official of the business." Hint: the letter must confirm quite a few particular details.

Even though it was last updated in 2015, the Operational Manual for Overseas Processing (OP 10) for Permanent Residency Status Determination, cited and linked by @scylla contains much the same information; see basic information about this credit in section 6.5 and more detailed information (very similar to what is in Appendix A) in the chart listing guidelines for applying Regulation 61 IRPR, which contains provisions prescribing the criteria for this credit. The regulation is here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-9.html#h-686425

Similarly, and likewise last updated in 2015, see the Operational Manual for Enforcement (ENF 23) regarding Loss of Permanent Resident Status here: https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ircc/migration/ircc/english/resources/manuals/enf/enf23-eng.pdf
Section 6.5 contains the same as in OP 10 Section 6.5, and Section 7.4 is roughly the same as in the OP 10 chart but in a more readable format.

THAT SAID . . . how this credit is applied in practice is what looms large. It is, usually, strictly applied. The technicalities involved tend to work against getting credit. In regards to what qualifies as a "Canadian business" for purposes of this credit, for example, the technical elements must be met to get the credit, but just meeting the technical elements might not be enough. In this regard it warrants noting that for those engaged in a more or less sole proprietorship, more or less self-employed, and even family businesses, it is obvious that IRCC scrutinizes these cases more thoroughly and more skeptically. Thus, even if IRCC cannot overtly conclude the purpose of the business is to allow the PR to meet the RO while living outside Canada, and deny credit specifically on that basis, suspicion that the establishment or organization of the business in Canada is more or less about avoiding RO enforcement tends to result in IRCC finding some aspect of the business or the employment relationship or the assignment as reason to deny credit. In particular, if the business itself, or the PR's life, is largely centered outside Canada, there is a high risk IRCC will find reason to deny credit.

Note, for example, it is not enough that the business is legally organized and established in Canada. It must be an ongoing operation IN Canada.

That is apart from wrestling with whether a person can assign themselves to a temporary job assignment outside Canada.

IN CONTRAST . . . if and when the PR might encounter RO enforcement action in which the credit is denied leading to the loss of PR status is a somewhat different, more complex question. Note, for example, the pattern of travel itself can have a big impact on whether CBSA officers identify a RO compliance issue. CBSA is less likely to identify a RO compliance issue for a PR who has been coming and going fairly regularly, so it might not be until the PR is applying for a new PR card or applying for a PR Travel Document that the issue gets scrutinized. (Technically if the PR is outside Canada more than 1095 days since landing, within the first five years, they are then in breach of the RO; but for a PR coming and going regularly, and presenting a valid PR card, CBSA is not likely to conduct a RO enforcement examination unless a RO compliance issue somehow becomes obvious.

Also note there is a big difference if the time outside Canada is around 7 months a year, which will mean the PR can meet the RO based on days IN Canada (5 months per year for five years adds up to more than 730 days). No need for the working abroad credit.

Nine months a year outside Canada, in contrast, while NO ONE in Canada is operating the business IN Canada all that time, at the least would invite questions about whether it really is a business with an ongoing operation in Canada, and in the meantime would total a RO shortfall by quite a lot.

In other words, successfully navigating this could be a challenge.
 

awells32

Newbie
Mar 12, 2024
4
0
Thanks for your in depth and concise reply, it is greatly appreciated.

To explain a little more about my business. I have worked in the music industry for over 15 years and previously ran a very successful business in the UK touring worldwide for over 10 years. I have migrated this business to Vancouver where I do plan on maintaining the business and continuing to operate long term. The business was not at all set up for the purpose of obtaining or retaining PR. I can clearly evidence this through many successful years of experience in my industry and long standing clients I have continued to work with after moving to Canada.

The business is an incorporated entity registered in BC and not a sole proprietorship, I am not self employed. I obtain a full time salary, and pay taxes monthly to CRA as an employee of the company.

I was probably not detailed enough in my early questions, apologies for this. I have read through the IRCC Residency Obligations documents and am aware what is required of me to evidence time in Canada. I currently have a spreadsheet that documents all of my travel in and out of Canada. Along with articles of incorporation, payslips, documents to evidence my employment with clients, contracts, bank statements and invoices. What I should have asked is if there is anyone in a similar situation and if there is any other additional information that I do not currently have that may be useful.

Note, for example, it is not enough that the business is legally organized and established in Canada. It must be an ongoing operation IN Canada. This is one of my primary concerns. As the sole director of the business when outside of Canada the business is not conducting business with Canadian companies IN Canada. Of course upon my return this changes.

As originally mentioned I have a fair amount of time to play with here. I am mostly concerned about the process of reapplying for my PR card which will need to be done before November 2027, this is when my current card will expire. It is at this point that my time in Canada could become an issue. Obviously I will not lose my PR status. Is it true that one could remain in Canada until the RO requirements are met and then reapply for a PR card?

Finally, IF deemed an acceptable case for credit to be applied for time outside of Canada. Is this a circumstance where each day spent outside of Canada WOULD classify as a day inside Canada. Or are the days one may be short of the 730 by credited until the requirements are met?

Thanks again for your help here.

Adam.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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To explain a little more about my business. . . .
No one here can reliably opine whether you will get credit toward the Residency Obligation for days you are outside Canada working for your business. As noted, for situations similar to what you describe, this is a TRICKY credit. And that is largely an understatement.

Based on what you describe, including your additional explanation, but nonetheless as I previously noted, successfully navigating this could be a challenge. Which is perhaps also an understatement.

You should probably hire a lawyer to review your situation, your business organization, your business operations, and give you an informed opinion with advice (not some free or low-cost consultation), before you rely on getting RO credit for days you are outside Canada.

In particular, I am afraid you may be wearing blinders in how you read and interpret these matters. Maybe not. But like many, if not most, you seem to be reading things in a light that favours you, that will support a claim for the credit. That can be risky. As previously noted, IRCC tends to be strict in how it applies this particular exception to the RO.

You say, for example, "I am the sole director and full time employee" of this company, but also say the business is "not a sole proprietorship" and you are "not self-employed," as if this means IRCC is not going to evaluate your claim to the credit with the scrutiny, potentially skepticism, it would approach someone whose temporary assignments to work outside Canada were with a business that is MORE or LESS (not necessarily technically) a sole proprietorship.

I think I previously mentioned that the "technicalities involved tend to work against getting credit. In regards to what qualifies as a 'Canadian business' for purposes of this credit, for example, the technical elements must be met to get the credit, but just meeting the technical elements might not be enough."

None of which is to opine just how IRCC will approach or assess your business, your employment relationship with the business, the nature of the assignments to work outside Canada. I do NOT know how it will actually go. No advanced degrees in Business Administration necessary to apprehend, however, there is likely to be, at the least, questions and elevated scrutiny when the company official who signs the letter detailing information about the business, and the employee, are the same person.

Who in the business makes the decision to assign you to a job outside Canada?

But it is not a sole proprietorship. One protests. So?

It warrants noting that among the similar situations addressed in forum discussions, in some of the cases there were attempts to mask one/two person operations by technically having additional persons involved, typically in name only (typically family or close friends). Common scenario is a wife and husband, one ostensibly the corporate decision maker, staying in Canada, keeping books and such in Canada, while the other is sent (assigned) to work outside Canada. Another crash and burn scenario, except the one who stays in Canada is OK (and if spouses, they can in turn sponsor the other to get PR status again).

Which brings up . . . You say "What I should have asked is if there is anyone in a similar situation and if there is any other additional information that I do not currently have that may be useful."

But as I previously noted:
Many of the discussions here at least reference situations quite similar to yours. These scenarios come up rather often, largely because more than a few attempt to get around the RO by ostensibly establishing a business in Canada that in turn assigns them to work abroad, which efforts tend to crash and burn.
If the references here in the forum are insufficiently detailed for you to grasp and understand how they are situations similar to yours, do some research for yourself, looking at some actual cases at the CanII website where official decisions by the IAD and Federal Court are published, searching for residency obligation enforcement cases involving credit for days working outside Canada. See https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/ Maybe there have not been many recent cases, but if you go back five and ten years (law and practice on this issue has not changed much in the last decade) there should be no shortage of cases in which PRs organized their business legally in Canada but the businesses operations were essentially outside Canada. In itself, there is nothing wrong about that. It's akin to what I have done (but physically staying in Canada long enough to have gotten citizenship). But in many of the cases that does not qualify for RO credit for the time they were outside Canada.


The Mechanics of Enforcement:

If the PR qualifies for the working abroad for a Canadian business RO credit, each day they are employed full time abroad engaged in that employment counts as a day IN Canada . . . for purposes of the RO, not citizenship.

If the PR has been IN Canada 731 days within the previous five years, they are in RO compliance, whether the working abroad credit applies or not is largely NOT relevant, of no matter.

As long as no inadmissibility proceedings have been commenced, if a PR is IN Canada they can stay. Their status as a PR is still valid. If they stay for 730 days, any previous breach of the RO is cured (unless inadmissibility proceedings have already been started; once a 44(1) Report is prepared, days in Canada no longer count).

Meanwhile, actual practices in the enforcement of the RO tend to be flexible and in many respects lenient. Lots of PRs get tangled in some degree of RO enforcement while they are in breach of the RO, but are allowed to keep PR status anyway. Of course it is RISKY to get into that situation.

Note, for example, there are many cases in which a PR has been denied the working-abroad credit but then allowed to keep PR status for H&C reasons, either in the review of the Report by a Minister's Delegate, or later by the IAD if there is an appeal. There is NO guarantee of such leniency, and we are not at all sure how many go which way or the other, but H&C relief is quite common.
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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The business is an incorporated entity registered in BC and not a sole proprietorship, I am not self employed. I obtain a full time salary, and pay taxes monthly to CRA as an employee of the company.
My two cents on this is that you're approaching the issue based on an appeal to/understanding that the legal, accounting and taxation definitions, understanding and contexts are effectively what IRCC will apply.

I can't say what approach IRCC will apply. But my understanding is that they can choose to ignore entirely the legal fictions (a term I am not using pejoratively here) and apply a substantive approach: that you are a sole individual who controls your company, makes all decisions, and carries out substantively all work (whether in Canada or not). In other words, they don't care about your decision to carry out your business as an LLC, sole proprietorship, corporation, or as a self employed person. Those are choices about how you structure your taxes, liabilities, risk, operations (for potential growth), etc.

And that based on that, they can determine that you are not being 'posted' or sent abroad for business by the business because ... you are that business, and all decisions to spend time abroad are your decisions. Side note that I do not know where they draw this line but as @dpenabill noted, they seem historically to be highly skeptical about issues of control etc by family, friends, etc; they might decide that even a CEO of a large publicly traded corporation has too much decision power and can't just decide (even hypothetically) that they want to work from New York and in that way avoid the residency requirements.

Now you could argue against that, disagree with that interpretation, appeal, etc., BUT: must warn that to my knowledge, there is no way to get comfort or a decision ex ante, you can only effectively apply later and if they decide against you - and that might be very inconvenient.

So you can consult a lawyer of course, but these are not questions for lawyers who don't have the requisite experience with Canadian immigration (and a fairly narrow aspect of it at that). A lawyer who is very good at keeping your business separate from your personal liabilities may simply not know - what makes the corporation separate from you for contingent liabilities purposes is not the same thing in this context.

It may be more convenient and practical for you to try to structure business and travel to maximise time in Canada to meet the RO (which is, after all, only 40% of time in Canada) - or even better, to hit citizenship requirements to obviate the issue for you in the long term.

Good luck.
 

canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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Not related to your PR status but you also appear to not be meeting the residency obligations required to qualify for healthcare either. What is your plan for when you have to renew your PR card? If you do not meet RO and even if you meet RO by a slim margin would anticipate longer than average processing time. If you pursue an H&C application, for example, that could mean up to 2+ years in some cases without a valid PR card while you wait for the results of processing. I assume that the inability to fly into Canada will have a significant impact on your life.
 
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Ponga

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I assume that the inability to fly into Canada will have a significant impact on your life.
Good point. Unless the OP holds a valid U.S. passport (to appease a commercial carrier), that could indeed be a big problem.