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To state the obvious, this doesn't always work. My own personal case is one. I have a super common name, and you can find folks with my name all around the world. Meanwhile, I deliberately keep a low profile online and and avoid social media owned by the big companies etc. So someone trying this on me would have to work really hard to filter out a bunch of false positives/false matches only to come up empty in the end. But I'm perhaps unusual in this regard.
To state the obvious: I did not claim it always works. It is one method of many they may use to check/double-check cases which are otherwise fine, or borderline. I could speculate, but the usage may be more useful in one direction (finding contradictory information) than another (confirming info).

The point is not that they ALWAYS use it, nor that not finding someone (those w/o social media profiles) is a big deal. Just that it may complement other methods in useful ways some of the time.

More useful to them than getting 250 page 'books' of repetitive information.

On the other hand, I can think of some contrived exceptional cases where many proofs are required but the applicant is entirely honest and forthcoming. (For example, someone who had the misfortune to be kidnapped and smuggled out of Canada against their will - bypassing the usual entry/exit controls - repeatedly.)
I think we can dismiss as not really relevant the contrived and fantastical.
 
I think we can dismiss as not really relevant the contrived and fantastical.
You mean like this?
them .. getting 250 page 'books' of repetitive information.
I only suggested the OP submit five total pieces of evidence, which, we both now agree is more than necessary, but this number is also what the OP actually did submit and what you suggested as being within a reasonable amount of info (here, https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-i...card-renewal-obligations.873603/post-11096505 )

But this is getting quite off-topic. Simply put, I remain unconvinced for the time being on the very minor that there's a correlation between the amount of evidence required for an application with the credibility of that application's applicant and agree with you on virtually everything else.

(Of course, there's also a difference being the number of pieces of evidences actually required (which is usually 2) and that actually submitted (which is probably usually 2 but sometimes a few more like 5 in OP's case). But with the original line being "If your file is so bad you need 250+ pages, you have a credibility problem" I was thus focusing on the former. (For who and under what circumstances would 250+ pages of evidence ever be actually needed for a PR card renewal app???) If anything, I'd wager the latter (someone submitting waaaay more pieces than they actually need for it) is even less likely to constitute a credibility issue on the applicant's part. An otherwise credible applicant who has trouble reading or following instructions - say perhaps like myself - is a far better and more likely explanation for those cases. Now the application would still probably be delayed, and it's reasonable to consider it the applicant's fault for not following the instructions, but the delay isn't a credibility issue. Again, very minor and unimportant tangent - and I suppose the potential accusation against someone's credibility being something of a personal sore spot for me might also play into it here.)
To state the obvious: I did not claim it always works.

Agreed (and actually that's one reason why I added the "state the obvious disclaimer").
It is one method of many they may use to check/double-check cases which are otherwise fine, or borderline. I could speculate, but the usage may be more useful in one direction (finding contradictory information) than another (confirming info).

The point is not that they ALWAYS use it, nor that not finding someone (those w/o social media profiles) is a big deal. Just that it may complement other methods in useful ways some of the time.

Makes sense. Agreed.
 
You mean like this?

I only suggested the OP submit five total pieces of evidence ... (For who and under what circumstances would 250+ pages of evidence ever be actually needed for a PR card renewal app???)
It is not contrived. An example in a different thread - in the last few days - of someone submitting (an /urgent/ request!) with a 250 page pdf.
If anything, I'd wager the latter (someone submitting waaaay more pieces than they actually need for it) is even less likely to constitute a credibility issue on the applicant's part. An otherwise credible applicant who has trouble reading or following instructions - say perhaps like myself - is a far better and more likely explanation for those cases.
The question, I believe, is not what is a better explanation (debatable but I take your point) - it's what conclusions the examiner might make.

Which might be 'can't read instructions.' Might be 'overcompensating' (for what exactly? need to think about this...)
Now the application would still probably be delayed,
But almost certainly will be "I have better stuff to do in the thirty minutes left in my shift today, I can close four other files where the applicants aren't trying to bury me, and my boss* has his targets to meet, maybe I'll leave this hot mess for ... later." (Or other bureaucratic moves like 'pass this overgrown mess of a hot potato' and call it a non-standard app)

*Also what if the boss asks what in the Lord's name is actually IN this 250 page hot mess? Can I possibly summarize it when I've barely glanced it? Hard pass.

Anyway, you get my point: follow the instructions, even if they seem to leave doubt; if they still leave doubt, yep, still follow the instructions.
 
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Anyway, you get my point: follow the instructions, even if they seem to leave doubt; if they still leave doubt, yep, still follow the instructions.

100% agreed. (The real issue of course isn't so much that "I read the instructions but didn't want to do it this way" but rather a "I got confused by the instructions" and so either examples of successful applications or tailored advice is needed.)
It is not contrived. An example in a different thread - in the last few days - of someone submitting (an /urgent/ request!) with a 250 page pdf.

Dang, I looked for but couldn't find that thread. Would love to read it myself, I'm especially keen to understand why the 250 page pdf was necessary.

That said, I do wonder if this is more of a case of the above (someone who didn't "follow the instructions") rather than someone who really needed to submit 250 pages, particularly for an urgent request (I'll restate the obvious even though you already implied it in this case and said it elsewhere in this thread - going thru that many extra pages would slow the request down even though it was urgent). In the event that there is no real life example where 250+ pages are actually necessary for the application, then, even if not contrived, how such an application would be seen by IRCC is speculative at. best.

Of course, you're quite an experienced and knowledgable forum member. While others might make this mistake, I'm confident that YOU would see the distinction - thus if you clearly believe that the 250 pages were all necessary, then I'll just take your word as the only proof necessary.
The question, I believe, is not what is a better explanation (debatable but I take your point) - it's what conclusions the examiner might make.

Which might be 'can't read instructions.' Might be 'overcompensating' (for what exactly? need to think about this...)

Ideally the examiner would be aware of Halon's razor, but point taken. You've changed my mind again - I now understand how filing too many pages could at least be within or adjacent to the nexus of credibility issues. Definitely not a risk worth taking if it's avoidable.
But almost certainly will be "I have better stuff to do in the thirty minutes left in my shift today, I can close four other files where the applicants aren't trying to bury me, and my boss* has his targets to meet, maybe I'll leave this hot mess for ... later." (Or other bureaucratic moves like 'pass this overgrown mess of a hot potato' and call it a non-standard app)

*Also what if the boss asks what in the Lord's name is actually IN this 250 page hot mess? Can I possibly summarize it when I've barely glanced it? Hard pass.

Well, perhaps this isn't quite a credibility issue per se strictly speaking, but I'd agree that this is a very plausible scenario and something one would wish to avoid as an applicant. Basically it seems like the one category of mistake can bring up multiple causes of delays, so definitely worth avoiding making this type of mistake.
 
Dang, I looked for but couldn't find that thread. Would love to read it myself, I'm especially keen to understand why the 250 page pdf was necessary.


Overall I think the context you may be missing - IRCC changed the requirements when filing these forms a while back (a couple years ago? idk).

Before that, one submitted these renewal apps with NO proof. Zero.

Then they added these forms where they request two forms of evidence (which they may refer to as 'proof' but that's a weakness of English - proof can be used in the sense of evidence - and more clear in context from the examples that it is not asking for that much detail).

Since then, there were a rash of applications with the applicants trying to account for EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Basically impossible.

Since then it's been quite clear that most renewal apps, where the applicant is in compliance with the RO, and no other serious issues (eg criminality), get processed QUITE quickly - like 60 days or less and recently <30. They're so fast that it seems that urgent requests generally are slower. (There may be some cases - idk - if TRULY urgent and emergencies - where it works)

No evidence providing 'more' info helps. Some evidence providing way too much - sometimes the opposite. A couple extra - probably won't help. A lot extra - probably won't help and might well make things worse.

This is why I'm emphasizing - because people reading them have a tendency to want to over-provide - the simple advice to follow the instructions and NOT overdo it. To tend to provide the exact amount they ask for.

They ask for two pieces of evidence. Do that.
 
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Thanks! Very helpful and a really interesting read.
Since then it's been quite clear that most renewal apps, where the applicant is in compliance with the RO, and no other serious issues (eg criminality), get processed QUITE quickly - like 60 days or less and recently <30. They're so fast that it seems that urgent requests generally are slower. (There may be some cases - idk - if TRULY urgent and emergencies - where it works)

No evidence providing 'more' info helps. Some evidence providing way too much - sometimes the opposite. A couple extra - probably won't help. A lot extra - probably won't help and might well make things worse.

They ask for two pieces of evidence. Do that.
Seems like this is actually the former case ("didn't need to send 250 pages") rather than the latter one ("applicant really did need 250 pages and has a credibility problem") which remains speculative I guess.

This is why I'm emphasizing - because people reading them have a tendency to want to over-provide - the simple advice to follow the instructions and NOT overdo it. To tend to provide the exact amount they ask for.

At this junction I think we'd converged and now agree 100% on everything. But to repeat myself - agreed.
Overall I think the context you may be missing - IRCC changed the requirements when filing these forms a while back (a couple years ago? idk).

Before that, one submitted these renewal apps with NO proof. Zero.

Then they added these forms where they request two forms of evidence (which they may refer to as 'proof' but that's a weakness of English - proof can be used in the sense of evidence - and more clear in context from the examples that it is not asking for that much detail).

Since then, there were a rash of applications with the applicants trying to account for EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Basically impossible.
Ahh, that's it. Yep, with that missing context it now all becomes clear.

To be honest, I also likely got confused because I haven't tried this myself yet - and if all goes well, never will. I'm still within my five five year period as a PR and have an open citizenship app, which - if current standard processing times roughly hold, more or less, and I do indeed get approved - should come in before that period ends. Thus I may never get a chance to fill out my own PR card renewal app.

Still good to know these things so I can help fill out my wife's when the time comes. Thanks for digging into this with me so I will be able to do the right thing when the times comes, much much much appreciated!
 
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Seems like this is actually the former case ("didn't need to send 250 pages") rather than the latter one ("applicant really did need 250 pages and has a credibility problem") which remains speculative I guess.
Just my opinion but: there is NO application for which 250 pages is needed.

IRCC has the ability to ask for more information - when they determine they need it. But let them ask for what they want, and then respond to that.

For the initial application: submit what they ask for (two pieces of evidence of residency), a wee bit more if it makes you feel better, and wait.

The moreso as (unlike years ago) IRCC has access to entry/exit records, and they're more likely to use those in the first instance when they wish to confirm aspects of the physical presence record.
 
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If your file is so bad you need 250+ pages, you have a credibility problem.
Just my opinion but: there is NO application for which 250 pages is needed.

I guess I'd say that I'm open to the theoretical possibility that there might be some application out there that one day needs 250 pages. (I'd guess it'd be something super complex like a refugee who was accused of and put into cessation proceedings, and then eventually won on appeal, then was overseas in a different country for a long time but returned to Canada with a good H&C case, but then IRCC simply delayed processing the app afterwards leading to mandamus.) Anyways, speculative and definitely outside the norm.

More saliently I agree with the below,
IRCC has the ability to ask for more information - when they determine they need it. But let them ask for what they want, and then respond to that.

For the initial application: submit what they ask for

100%
 
I guess I'd say that I'm open to the theoretical possibility that there might be some application out there that one day needs 250 pages. (I'd guess it'd be something super complex like a refugee who was accused of and put into cessation proceedings, and then eventually won on appeal, then was overseas in a different country for a long time but returned to Canada with a good H&C case, but then IRCC simply delayed processing the app afterwards leading to mandamus.) Anyways, speculative and definitely outside the norm.

More saliently I agree with the below,


100%
How is your application going? My wife applied Sep 11th and the PR portal is still showing "submitted" and she was not able to link the application on gckey using here UCI and family name, since she didn't get an application number yet
 
How is your application going? My wife applied Sep 11th and the PR portal is still showing "submitted" and she was not able to link the application on gckey using here UCI and family name, since she didn't get an application number yet
Moving slowly. Took a while to show up on tracker even after getting AOR, and no updates since July. Seems to be stuck on LPP.
 
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If your file is so bad you need 250+ pages, you have a credibility problem.

I guess I'd say that I'm open to the theoretical possibility that there might be some application out there that one day needs 250 pages . . . something super complex . . .

Reminder: Two pieces of evidence showing residence in Canada is sufficient when the PR card applicant is in compliance with the RO based on physical presence in Canada for at least 730 days within the relevant time period. Indeed, this is ONLY when the PR card applicant is in compliance with the RO based on physical presence in Canada.

All others (as I get to below), including those PRs relying on H&C considerations, need to follow further instructions describing the additional supporting documents to submit.

That said, even in the most complicated scenarios it is difficult to conceive of one in which submitting more than a hundred pages (even just fifty) would be prudent. Remember, the more complicated a case is the more important it is to organize and present it in a way that highlights the key elements. As some astute litigator said (or at least one should have): "don't make a jury (or judge) dig through a mountain of circumstantial evidence to find the smoking gun" (the risk, bearing unfavorable odds, is they do not dig enough to find what really makes the difference; that is, the more there is to look at the more risk there is the decision-maker overlooks the more persuasive evidence; or worse, is confused; or even worse, extracts information from the mountain of evidence that will support a negative decision).

I may get to discussing the latter in more depth, in a subsequent post, but my primary focus in these observations is to clarify what should be and likely is the most common scenario: PRs in RO compliance who need to submit just two documents showing residence in Canada.

Clarifications and Further Context -- Long read re what to submit with a PR card application as "Proof showing that you met" the RO:

Please forgive me for the repetition, particularly of the basics. I do not recite basic principles and clear instructions to suggest they have not been given adequate coverage in the discussion so far, let alone to contest what has been said, but rather to be clear about the baseline and deviations from that baseline. Thus, much of what follows echoes or outright repeats what has already been posted above. These observations are intended to be clarifications and provide further context in an effort to consolidate what we know.

Note: Even though the following observations, in multiple posts, will briefly address other scenarios, these observations are focused on what needs to be submitted with a PR card application for PRs who meet the RO based on actual presence in Canada. (Other scenarios include, for example, PRs relying on credit for days outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse, discussed here, or working abroad RO credit, discussed here, and of course H&C cases.)​

Foremost, for context (even though this is implicit in the preceding posts), clarity, and for emphasis, there are detailed instructions in the Guide regarding the Residency Obligation and what supporting documents need to be submitted with a PR card application to show RO compliance. These instructions are in Appendix A: Residency obligation. For PRs complying with their obligations, including the RO, following those instructions is the way to go.

In particular, for PRs who are in compliance with the RO based on physical presence in Canada (that is, those not outside Canada for more than 1095 days in the relevant time period), the "proof" to be submitted with the application is merely two items of evidence showing residence in Canada.

Note: the discussion in this thread has been, in significant part, revisiting an extensive discussion we had here around two years ago in regards to what IRCC means by "proof" in the checklist reference to proof showing RO compliance. That discussion was in the wake of IRCC adding the two items showing residence to requirements for making a complete application (adopted in April 2023***).​
Short answer is that in this context "proof" means documents​
(1) which are evidence of residency in Canada, or​
(2) which are evidence of facts establishing eligibility for RO credit for days outside of Canada, or​
(3) which document the factual basis for H&C factors to consider​

***Historical Note:
In the checklist there are separately listed "Additional forms/supporting documents" that some applicants are required to submit in certain particular circumstances (such as applications involving name changes or the use of a representative), apart from the primary list of documents PR card applicants need to submit.
As for the primary list of documents to be included, the checklist for a PR card application adopted in April 2023, that is IMM 5644 (04-2023)E, which continued to be applicable until the currently applicable December 2024 version IMM 5644 (12-2024)E, included:
"Proof showing that you met the residency obligation in the past five (5) years immediately before the application or since becoming a PR if it has been less 5 years."

In contrast, previous versions of the checklist for a PR card application, including the one adopted in June 2022, that is IMM 5644 (06-2022)E, which was the applicable version until March 2023, stated:
"Proof of residency requirements if you were outside of Canada for 1095 days or more in the past five (5) years."

That is, until April 2023 those PRs who met the RO based on physical presence in Canada (not outside Canada more than 1095 days) were not asked to submit supporting documents to show RO compliance. The discussion here, in this thread, revisits what was discussed at length and in-depth in this forum soon after that change.
Additional Source Note: The Regulations also specify information and documents (identity-related documents and photographs) that a PR card application must contain; this is in Section 56 IRPA. (This specifies what must be included by law; it is not a list limiting the information or documentation that can be required to make a complete application.)​

. . . to be continued . . .
 
Thank you again for an engaging read. I completely agree with everything you say. I'll just add a few minor comments on a few minor things you mentioned.
even in the most complicated scenarios it is difficult to conceive of one in which submitting more than a hundred pages (even just fifty) would be prudent. Remember, the more complicated a case is the more important it is to organize and present it in a way that highlights the key elements. As some astute litigator said (or at least one should have): "don't make a jury (or judge) dig through a mountain of circumstantial evidence to find the smoking gun" (the risk, bearing unfavorable odds, is they do not dig enough to find what really makes the difference; that is, the more there is to look at the more risk there is the decision-maker overlooks the more persuasive evidence; or worse, is confused; or even worse, extracts information from the mountain of evidence that will support a negative decision).

Hmm. This is a really good point. Even in complex cases (i.e. outside of the "when the PR card applicant is in compliance with the RO based on physical presence in Canada" scenario) one may want to submit only the highlights or just the key elements, which naturally results in fewer pages overall. I speculate that there may be some situation where the applicant is later obligated to turn over the full set of docs (making it easier to get to the higher page counts) - e.g. IRCC wants to review the full diary (where excerpts were used in support of the applicant) to see if it has any inconsistencies in it.

I suppose, even if they exist, they must be very uncommon.
Two pieces of evidence showing residence in Canada is sufficient ... ONLY when the PR card applicant is in compliance with the RO based on physical presence in Canada.

All others (as I get to below), including those PRs relying on H&C considerations, need to follow further instructions describing the additional supporting documents to submit.

This is a really good point. I reached towards H&C and other complex cases because I am incredibly hard pressed to come up with a situation where a PR card application, who is in compliance with the RO based on physical presence in Canada, would need 250 pages - and that's even accounting for the lighter definition (where the 250 pages is based on all correspondence regarding the application instead of only on the initial submission, as opposed to needing to submit it all upfront). I say hard pressed - actually my imagination is too limited and I'm drawing a blank.