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Police Certificate requirement for countries where an individual spent 6+ months

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,307
3,068
thank you for your reply, yes the PCC is issued within the last 6 months, it is just that i was visiting my parents after the pcc was issued and the duration of the trip was almost 2 months. Nonethless i was still holding employment in Mauritius and my residence country is still Mauritius. I am only asking this as if i have to apply for another Indian PCC, it is a 45-50 day hassle.
Anyone can be asked to provide a more current police certificate even if they send in one which is sufficiently current at the time they apply.

There are essentially two issues:
-- will the police certificate submitted with the application satisfy the completeness screening, so that the application is not returned as incomplete?
-- will the police certificate submitted with the application be sufficient when the application is processed in the local office?

Time in the other country after the certificate was issued, including time in that other country while the application is pending, can influence whether IRCC requests the applicant to provide a more recent police certificate. What is the risk of this happening? The circumstances in which this is likely to even be considered are unusual enough we are not likely to see any more than very sporadic reporting, if even that, other than over the course of many years eventually some reporting should illuminate this at least a little.

In any event, while the IRCC website does not provide any specific information about how current a certificate needs to be for citizenship applicants, it appears almost certain that as long as the certificate was issued within six months of the date the application is made, that will pass completeness screening. It is also quite likely that even if the certificate was not issued within the previous six months, it will pass completeness screening if it was issued AFTER the LAST time the applicant was in that country.

My GUESS, my sense, is that even coming close to this criteria will suffice as long as there is nothing which suggests the possibility of criminal charges in that other country. Any hint inviting a concern about possible criminal charges in the other country, in contrast, could easily increase (by quite a lot) the risk IRCC will request the applicant submit another police certificate later in the process.

Leading to . . .

Regarding this new rule - how does a partial day spent in a country count towards this rule? If my wife goes to visit the family in the US and she leaves friday night and comes back sunday night, how many days was she in the USA in regards to this above requirement? Does it mimic the current counting method that PR and Citizenship uses (any partial day spent in Canada counts as a day spent in Canada)? I'm going to guess "yes" and she would count 3 days in the USA but CIC should clear this up.
I posted this awhile back and I don't think it got a response. Does anyone have an idea on the above?
This has indeed been discussed in depth and at some length, several times, going back YEARS.

What new rule?

The applicable rule is based on a provision of law adopted in June 2014, which came into force in May 2015, resulting in CIC (before it became IRCC) adding the police certificate requirement to the application for certain applicants (those who had spent 183 or more days in a country during the preceding four years) to the application form in the revision which was implemented in June 2015. There has NOT been any change in the related rules since then.

And, to be clear, there is no "rule" that citizenship applicants must submit a police certificate from another country. The law requires citizenship applicants to have no prohibitions, including no prohibitions related to criminal charges in other countries (this is the prohibition added to the Citizenship Act in legislation receiving Royal Assent in June 2014). And the law puts the burden of proof on the applicant to show that the applicant is qualified, including not being subject to any prohibitions.

Based on this, since June 2015 CIC and then IRCC included the item in the application which requires applicants to affirmatively declare whether or not they were "in" another country a total of 183 days or more during the four years, and if "yes" they were, to EITHER submit a police certificate or explain why not.


Why does this distinction matter?

When this issue about whether partial days in a country needed to be counted was first raised and discussed more than two years ago, there were some who approached the 183 days calculation as if it the calculation itself had substantive importance, as if reaching the threshold is a strict, technical question having definitive consequences. That approach tends to put way, way too much significance on precisely calculating the total number of days as if a precise calculation really makes a difference.

For purposes of meeting the actual physical presence requirement, for example, a precise calculation of days for someone cutting-it-close is indeed very important. It makes a difference. The 1095 day requirement (previously 1460 days) is indeed a definitive threshold. One day short, the application fails.

The 183 days or more calculation, for who needs to check "yes" in the current form item 10.b and submit a police certificate, IS NOT like that, it does not definitively determine an applicant's eligibility for citizenship. It is merely an arbitrary, administratively set threshold for identifying which applicants IRCC (as did CIC previously) requires to submit WITH the application, additional proof of no prohibition based on foreign convictions.

Ultimately, the applicant's obligation is to give an HONEST response to item 10.b and, in this context, in a general sense it is hard to defend, as being honest, not counting days a person was actually in the other country based on excluding some days from the calculation because they were partial days.

But what is the actual impact of calculating it one way versus the other?

Ordinarily, IRCC does not go drilling into the application details beyond the scope of the actual requirements for a grant of citizenship UNLESS those details suggest the applicant's reporting of information has been evasive, deceptive, or otherwise inaccurate to a degree which compromises the applicant's credibility.

Thus, IRCC is NOT likely to conduct a precise calculation of day trips or partial days in the U.S. to determine if, when added to the days of absence in the U.S., the applicant was in the U.S. a total of 183 days despite the applicant checking "no" in response to item 10.b in the application.

It is virtually certain this would not happen during the completeness check. We know, for example, that applicants who have checked "no" to this item previously (item numbered differently in previous application forms) but whose reported absences (in the presence calculation) showed they were in another country 183+ days, still cleared the completeness check. These applicants were given a request to submit a police certificate later in the process (anecdotal reports mostly indicate this happens either at or following the interview).

But there is a risk of being asked to submit a police certificate later in the process even if the applicant was in the other country less than 183 days total, even if less than that by a sizable margin.

Leading to . . .

Yes, the conservative approach is what I am doing with my wife's application. Fortunately she is still under 183 days either way but the buffer is not as big.
Ironically, unfortunately perhaps, the applicant who has spent a lot of time in the U.S., or for that matter another country, falling short of 183 days by some but not a lot, is probably at a significantly higher risk of being asked to submit a police certificate later in the process anyway.

The applicant who, for example, adds up all the days in another country and they total 179 days, and thus should clearly check "no" for item 10.b, can nonetheless recognize he or she probably has an elevated risk of being asked to submit a police certificate later in the process, which would delay the timeline for taking the oath.

In any event, again the main thing an applicant wants to consider when deciding whether to check "yes" or "no" in response to item 10.b (current application form), is giving an HONEST response, a response which will not give a total stranger bureaucrat the impression the applicant is being at all cute or evasive, let alone deceptive.

This is not an item which is at all likely to trigger a formal accusation of misrepresentation unless a "no" check is blatantly not true, and even then it is not likely there would be a formal accusation of misrepresentation unless this was in combination with other blatantly false facts in the application. (The obvious trigger for a misrepresentation accusation would be an undisclosed criminal charge in the other country.)

A "no" check will almost certainly get the application past a completeness check, even if it is not accurate (except, perhaps, where blatantly, obviously, the "no" response is not true).

Thus, the main thing is that the applicant does not want to give the impression he or she is playing games, is being evasive, and for sure not being deceptive.

(to be continued . . . )
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,307
3,068
continuing previous post . . .

Days in the U.S. / U.S. ties / U.S. travel:

It warrants noting that the extent to which an applicant travels to the U.S. can be something which has minimal influence for some applicants and quite a lot of influence for others, and that can be positive or negative. The range is so wide and variable that this conversation is not the place to go into details about this. And most who might be affected by this are likely already aware of the potential implications. In any event, not all patterns of travel to or through the U.S. are created equal, and IRCC staff tend to be aware of the differences and what they imply.

Beyond that, it also warrants noting that a U.S. criminal record check, based on name-record-databases, is periodically done attendant most action steps in processing a citizenship application. This is part of the GCMS check, which last we knew is a check which MUST be conducted each and every time any action is taken on the application, which means at the least at the time the application is entered into GCMS (completeness check step), attendant the interview/test, and attendant scheduling for the oath (noting some applicants are screened for interview and oath at the same time, particularly for itinerant services where oath is scheduled concurrently with scheduling the interview/test). Any hit in the U.S. name-record databases is likely to trigger further inquiry or a request for a police certificate from the U.S., regardless of the applicant's reported time in the U.S. The U.S. certificate involves screening based on fingerprints and thus is far more broad and in-depth than the name-record databases.


Example to illustrate how a less than honest response might be approached by IRCC:

Say, for example, in the work history an applicant wants to avoid reporting a period of unemployment, so the applicant counts a period of severance pay as time still employed and the date the applicant accepts an offer of employment as the starting date for his next period of employment, so as to in effect, say, report employment lasted to August 2015 (since he received a months severance added to leaving the job July 2nd 2015) and report next job starting September 2015 based on accepting the offer of employment on September 30th even though he did not physically arrive at the job site until late October or perhaps even in November. It is not as if IRCC is going to drill through these details to challenge this. And, indeed, even if these events actually left an additional month in-between, so the applicant actually is misrepresenting that month, it is not likely IRCC is going to identify this, or, even if it does, to give that much attention at all, the worst likely impact being some additional questions in the interview to clarify both the work history and the applicant's explanation for why he reported it as he did. BUT if IRCC sees some reason to think this is related to a deliberate effort to avoid disclosing certain information (especially travel abroad), or is otherwise intentionally deceptive, that will have a big impact on how things go.

For item 10.b checking "no" even though a "yes" would be the most honest response would likely result in somewhat similar dynamics.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,307
3,068
Do you know, if I can submit a copy of the certificate?
For most items to submit with the application, the checklist clearly indicates which documents are to be a photocopy and which need to be the original; for example, the checklist (CIT 0007 (10-2017) E)) states:

"Original police certificates or clearances from each country where you were present for a total of 183 days or more in the four (4) years immediately before the date of your application."

Thus, clearly, IRCC is asking for the original even though the instructions in the form and the guide do not specify that the certificates must be the original (but they also do not refer to copies or photocopies either).

That does not mean a photocopy will not get through the process. It is possible some have submitted a copy and that worked for them. This is one of the problems with anecdotal reports, since they can reflect something slipping through even though it was not properly done according to the instructions. Best approach, of course, is to follow the instructions. Thus, for police certificates, best approach is to submit the original.


Edit to add REMINDER: Always keep a full copy of everything sent to IRCC for your own records.
 
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Zacks

Member
Sep 18, 2017
14
6
Toronto
Thanks for all answers. Yes, I thought to send scanned color copy of my police certificate as will take 30 days to get in Canada, but I might wait, just in case.
 

hishamx87

Hero Member
Apr 25, 2017
465
465
Hi Experts,

We have obtained online police clearance certificates from Dubai - UAE. Can anyone please advise if these are acceptable for citizenship application? We visited HMC advisory services and they said that they need originals whereas Dubai police issues only online PCCs.

Your kind guidance will be very helpful as always.

Thanks,
 

wchaudhry

Star Member
Nov 4, 2017
182
21
Hi Experts,

We have obtained online police clearance certificates from Dubai - UAE. Can anyone please advise if these are acceptable for citizenship application? We visited HMC advisory services and they said that they need originals whereas Dubai police issues only online PCCs.

Your kind guidance will be very helpful as always.

Thanks,
Hi Hisham,

Can you please suggest me the procedure to get the PCC online?
How long does it take?
I am not in Dubai anymore. Exited in 2016 but I have my Emirates ID (expired) number with me.
Would highly appreciate your advice.

Thanks
 

hishamx87

Hero Member
Apr 25, 2017
465
465
Hi Hisham,

Can you please suggest me the procedure to get the PCC online?
How long does it take?
I am not in Dubai anymore. Exited in 2016 but I have my Emirates ID (expired) number with me.
Would highly appreciate your advice.

Thanks
Hi,

Its very straight forward process. Just visit www.dubaipolice.gov.ae and click on police clearance certificate link. Enter your details and pay the fee. That's it.

It will take 2 working days to receive the PCC in your email. Your PCC will surely have an error in your name or passport number.

For corrections, email to certificate@dubaipolice.gov.ae.

Cheers!
 

wchaudhry

Star Member
Nov 4, 2017
182
21
Hi,

Its very straight forward process. Just visit www.dubaipolice.gov.ae and click on police clearance certificate link. Enter your details and pay the fee. That's it.

It will take 2 working days to receive the PCC in your email. Your PCC will surely have an error in your name or passport number.

For corrections, email to certificate@dubaipolice.gov.ae.

Cheers!
Thank you for the suggestion Hisham. I did that put unfortunately received an email stating that the payment failed, however the amoint has already been deducted from my account.
I think it is because that i ignired the clause that the payment account has to be GCC based.
Did you pay from an international bank account or a GCC based?

Thanks
 

hishamx87

Hero Member
Apr 25, 2017
465
465
Thank you for the suggestion Hisham. I did that put unfortunately received an email stating that the payment failed, however the amoint has already been deducted from my account.
I think it is because that i ignired the clause that the payment account has to be GCC based.
Did you pay from an international bank account or a GCC based?

Thanks
I used GCC card but i heard people used international cards too.
 

wchaudhry

Star Member
Nov 4, 2017
182
21
I used GCC card but i heard people used international cards too.
I heard that too but apparently mine did not work.
One last question, did you apply from outside too, if you uploaded the bio metrics? (Cz i didnot upload the bio metrics)
Have you already left UAE and used an expired emirates Id number?

Thanks
 

hishamx87

Hero Member
Apr 25, 2017
465
465
I heard that too but apparently mine did not work.
One last question, did you apply from outside too, if you uploaded the bio metrics? (Cz i didnot upload the bio metrics)
Have you already left UAE and used an expired emirates Id number?

Thanks
Biometrics are not required as you have already provided those when you made EID.
Yes I applied outside UAE as well.

Check with your bank if the payment was processed or if you received any email of confirmation from Dubai police as a receipt.

Try using any other card if that works.

Cheers!
 

andy1011

Star Member
Apr 23, 2017
71
23
Hi guys,

I have a tricky question about my PCC that I need your help please. I lived in my home country since I was born until I am 26 years old (2014) and I have lived in the USA since 2014 until now. I got PCC of my home country issued in Feb 2016. I just visited my home country in Jan 2017 for two weeks and back to the USA. Would the PCC issued last year valid still or I need to request a new PCC in my home country for PR application. I expect an ITA soon in March 2017. Thanks much for your feedback guys.