Expired PR Card Issue and Working In Canada

[nozferat]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a US citizen and applied for and received my PR card back in 2008. I wanted to move to BC and work there but due to very bad economic times and the outright unwillingness of Canadian firms to spend any money to hire quality candidates from other places (i.e. even though I was able to work in Canada legally they were unwilling to spend a few hundred $$ to fly me out there for an interview from Los Angeles), it was very very tough to find work.

So I kept trying and trying but no avail.

My PR card expired in 2013.

The lawyer that helped me get this card stated that I can go to Canada and stay there regardless of the fact that my PR card has expired. So long as I get in and customs, etc doesn't create an issue, I can get in and stay. Whether that is true or not I don't know. I certainly have not satisfied the stupid 730 day rule but even so that's what the lawyer stated.

Now that the economy has gotten a little better, more companies are interested in my background but as soon as they here I am not sure I have PR they baulk...as if it's such a big deal considering how many immigrants Canada brings in from places that are much further away than the US and have no agreement like the US does border-wise. It's ludicrous in the way they think and behave.

Anyway, the real issue is what am I entitled to at this point? What can I do and not do? Am I able to go back to Canada and work? How do I get an SIN number to work when the PR card is expired? If I go to an SIN office and they see my card is expired, what will they say and do?

My lawyer advised me highly against renewing my PR card....at least not for a few years has passed until I come back and reside there. So what do I do?

It's very frustrating. Here I am...a hard working, law abiding individual who went through the right channels and spend a great deal of time and money obtaining an PR card in the hopes to move and work in Canada and this is how I am treated and looked and all the while people just waltz in there and are treated with kit gloves. I don't get it.

Anyway thank you.

 

[Leon]

A PR is obligated to live in Canada at least 730 days in any rolling 5 year period to keep their PR. You don't meet this residency obligation (RO) so it is possible when you enter Canada that the immigration officer will report you for it in which case you will officially lose your PR.

If this does not happen and you manage to enter Canada without getting reported, you are still a PR and you could stay for 730 days straight (2 years). You would then meet the RO and your sins are forgiven, you would keep your PR status and could finally renew your PR card.

Service Canada will give you a SIN regardless of your PR card being expired. You may however face problems getting a drivers license, getting health care etc. Some employers may even ask to see your PR card as proof of your status so you might lose out on some jobs.

If you want to be frustrated about something, you should be frustrated about the fact that you did not move to Canada in time to meet your RO as required for your PR. People who are moving to Canada from further away are also for the most part hard working, law abiding people who went through the right channels in order to get their PR and if they don't meet the RO, they have the same problems as you do now.

 

[dpenabill]

I do not know about obtaining a SIN at this stage. The Canada Service site online will list the documents which will suffice in obtaining the SIN card. While a PR card is optimal, my recall is that a CoPR in conjunction with the cancelled visa in the passport (PR visa is cancelled upon landing) reflecting the fact of landing, was sufficient.

Of course, obtaining the SIN is something most PRs do shortly after landing even if they plan to leave and return later, as many do. Once it is done, the SIN remains valid (a lot like the U.S. SSN). (There are temporary SINs, but when a PR obtains the SIN it is a permanent SIN.)

Ontario, at least, allows the use of an expired PR card, up to five years since date of expiration, to be used when renewing the OHIP card . . . I think the same rules for presentation of documentation to show status govern the initial application as well, but I am not certain of this. (Just received my notice to renew OHIP, and it includes the list of acceptable documents to show three things: status, residency, and identification, and for status only it lists the PR card "expired not more than five years.")

I do not know about other provinces, but many of these matters are fairly standardized across Canada.

 

[scylla]

Anyway, the real issue is what am I entitled to at this point?

The short answer is that you are entitled to absolutely nothing since you haven't kept up your end of the bargain by meeting the residency obligation.

The long answer is what depanbill and Leon have kindly written out for you above. You certainly still have the opportunity to save your PR status. As for applying for a SIN without a valid PR card, I think it may be possible with your landing documents and a Canadian photo ID (e.g. driver's license). However I'm not 100% sure.

 

[nozferat]

A PR is obligated to live in Canada at least 730 days in any rolling 5 year period to keep their PR. You don't meet this residency obligation (RO) so it is possible when you enter Canada that the immigration officer will report you for it in which case you will officially lose your PR.

If this does not happen and you manage to enter Canada without getting reported, you are still a PR and you could stay for 730 days straight (2 years). You would then meet the RO and your sins are forgiven, you would keep your PR status and could finally renew your PR card.

Service Canada will give you a SIN regardless of your PR card being expired. You may however face problems getting a drivers license, getting health care etc. Some employers may even ask to see your PR card as proof of your status so you might lose out on some jobs.

If you want to be frustrated about something, you should be frustrated about the fact that you did not move to Canada in time to meet your RO as required for your PR. People who are moving to Canada from further away are also for the most part hard working, law abiding people who went through the right channels in order to get their PR and if they don't meet the RO, they have the same problems as you do now.

I am frustrated about it and I'm frustrated because I spent a lot of effort and time and have the qualifications to hold a good paying, professional job and not be a taxi driver. It's a stupid law and not one just limited to Canada..it's a law similar to what the Brits and Aussies and all the other Imperial countries have. What's really unfair is how they (Brits and Queen's subjects individuals) seem to be able to go wherever the hell they want and the rest of us have to jump through fire hoops to do the same.

Regarding the SIN #, the issue I ran into was that they require certain documents to give you an SIN. One being a PR card....now if the card is expired...what am I supposed to say?

I went to BC in September actually for a job interview and entered with my US Passport...customs/immigration never even blinked an eye.

 

[Leon]

Having rules for PR's is not just tied to the commonwealth countries. Each country has their own rules for PR's. The US does too. The idea is that you get PR for the purpose of immigrating somewhere permanently and not to keep in your back pocket for the option of possibly moving years later when it suits you.

Brits and Aussies have no more rights in Canada than US citizens do. They have to apply for PR same as everybody else if they want one. The only thing they have that you don't have is a working holiday agreement which Canada also has with several European countries. Young people in these countries can get a work permit for 1-2 years to work and travel and get to know the country. Whether they manage to turn that into immigration is another story. I would say in most cases they probably don't.

What the US and Canada have what the Brits and Aussies don't is the NAFTA agreement. If your job falls under NAFTA, you can get a work permit relatively easily.

 

[dpenabill]

I am frustrated about it and I'm frustrated because I spent a lot of effort and time and have the qualifications to hold a good paying, professional job and not be a taxi driver. It's a stupid law and not one just limited to Canada..it's a law similar to what the Brits and Aussies and all the other Imperial countries have. What's really unfair is how they (Brits and Queen's subjects individuals) seem to be able to go wherever the hell they want and the rest of us have to jump through fire hoops to do the same.

Really? Compare this to the following report:

I went to BC in September actually for a job interview and entered with my US Passport...customs/immigration never even blinked an eye.

Wait, this report is from the same American. Same one who gets into a Foreign Country without a blink from border authorities.

Same American who is uninformed about the country with which the U.S. shares one of the longest borders in the world.

Same American who bitterly complains how unfair it is for there to be restrictions on the capacity of an American to go into a Foreign Country to live and work. Compare that to Five Billion or so other people in this world who would not be allowed to even board a flight destined for Canada, Australia, most of Europe, or the U.S., even if they could afford the ticket. Not to visit a terminally ill relative for a week let alone to live and work. Some of those may be able to apply, well in advance, for a visitor's visa, but the odds against the vast majority are daunting. Most would simply never get authorization to travel to Canada or the U.S. or Australia, not even for a week.

Compare that to how the United States treats the vast majority of the people in the world when it comes to allowing them into the U.S. . . . even those from its own neighbouring countries.

It is one thing to be privileged. I have been. I appreciate it. I thank whoever and whatever gave me and my family and friends the comfort of being born not-too-poor in North America.

But the arrogant sense of entitlement is another thing; that grew very old a long time ago.

No wonder I finally got the message "love or leave it" and happily left.

Sorry about a bit of a rant . . . even though I have been a Canadian for quite a long while now, and a full citizen for well over a year, most who know me still associate me with being American (it's the accent I hope, not my attitude I pray) . . . which is too often embarrassing.

 

[nozferat]

Funny..I'm not American by birth nor by culture you assumed it which is really sad.

Wait, this report is from the same American. Same one who gets into a Foreign Country without a blink from border authorities.

Yes because I went in with a US passport...so what? But I can't work there so what's your point? Most people can come into a country with no issues. Plus do me a favour and don't take what I said out of context...I said they didn't blink about the fact that my PR card was expired. Please take the time to read.

Same American who is uninformed about the country with which the U.S. shares one of the longest borders in the world.

I'm very informed...you assume too much once again. Is that a Canadian thing now that you are over there?

Same American who bitterly complains how unfair it is for there to be restrictions on the capacity of an American to go into a Foreign Country to live and work. Compare that to Five Billion or so other people in this world who would not be allowed to even board a flight destined for Canada, Australia, most of Europe, or the U.S., even if they could afford the ticket. Not to visit a terminally ill relative for a week let alone to live and work. Some of those may be able to apply, well in advance, for a visitor's visa, but the odds against the vast majority are daunting. Most would simply never get authorization to travel to Canada or the U.S. or Australia, not even for a week.

Franky I couldn't care what the other 5 billion are doing. I'm thinking about what I've tried to do in the right way and right approach. Compare apples to apples not oranges. I'm well aware more people are worse off or more restricted. Did I compare myself to them or are you doing so just to derail the actual comparison between the freedom Brits and Australians and other Commonwealth countries have to the rest of the world? Yes even compared to Americans who really are not as free as you think to work and live elsewhere.

Compare that to how the United States treats the vast majority of the people in the world when it comes to allowing them into the U.S. . . . even those from its own neighbouring countries.

Go ahead compare...the US seems to be the country most people end up in and definitely more-so than Canada so it seems to be easier to get into. What you think and what actually happens are two different things. Perhaps that's why so many Canadians who want to do business and want to be entrepreneurs come to the US instead...good for them I suppose if that's what they want as they can't be as successful in Canada it seems...as one of my Canadian friends constantly harps on about.

It is one thing to be privileged. I have been. I appreciate it. I thank whoever and whatever gave me and my family and friends the comfort of being born not-too-poor in North America.

But the arrogant sense of entitlement is another thing; that grew very old a long time ago.

Tell that to the Commonwealth countries who are privileged to go where they please so they don't need to feel entitled. It's not about entitlement...it's about getting something out of what you put in....not a common motto in the British/Canadian/Aussie vocabulary as you get what you want anyway on a silver platter. So please don't talk about arrogance and entitlement.

No wonder I finally got the message "love or leave it" and happily left.

Sorry about a bit of a rant . . . even though I have been a Canadian for quite a long while now, and a full citizen for well over a year, most who know me still associate me with being American (it's the accent I hope, not my attitude I pray) . . . which is too often embarrassing.

Well the fact that they are judging you says a great deal about what an arrogant bunch they are to think they are better than everyone else....a classic case of Jeremy Clarkson syndrome.

 

[nozferat]

Having rules for PR's is not just tied to the commonwealth countries. Each country has their own rules for PR's. The US does too. The idea is that you get PR for the purpose of immigrating somewhere permanently and not to keep in your back pocket for the option of possibly moving years later when it suits you.

Yes true...but it's not my fault that the Canadian economy didn't fair well and I could not find work during the time period I had my valid PR. Life happens...they need to take into account those things..particularly when Immigration Canada is pitching job forecasts showing available work and shortages of work force in areas that I was involved in.

Brits and Aussies have no more rights in Canada than US citizens do. They have to apply for PR same as everybody else if they want one. The only thing they have that you don't have is a working holiday agreement which Canada also has with several European countries. Young people in these countries can get a work permit for 1-2 years to work and travel and get to know the country. Whether they manage to turn that into immigration is another story. I would say in most cases they probably don't.

Oh yes they do. Brits in particular have carte blanche. I know...I lived there but never got my citizenship but my Brit friends were able to go wherever they pleased. They may need to apply but the programs and relationships they have with various countries makes it much easier for them to move around. A Brit moving to Australia or NZ or Canada is far easier than for an American. Far easier.

What the US and Canada have what the Brits and Aussies don't is the NAFTA agreement. If your job falls under NAFTA, you can get a work permit relatively easily.

Not true...even with NAFTA, I know first hand employers are VERY VERY reluctant to sponsor or get a work visa. If this wasn't the case, I'd be in Canada right now. The first thing Canadian companies ask me is am I legally able to work in Canada? 9/10 ten of them say they don't want to sponsor. Even with NAFTA. It should be easy...but it's not.

 

[Jerry1410]

Hi

I read through this discussion. Just want to ask you if you are a US Citizen why do you want to look for work in Canada. As far as I know most Canadians want to go and work in the US becasue the salaries there are higher and opportunities much more than Canada. I am asking this just by way of information.
OK bye

 

[scylla]

The reality is that it doesn't matter what you think - or what any of us think. The rules are the rules. As previously stated, you are entitled to nothing. However you may be able to save your PR status if you follow the instructions provided in this thread.

You can continue complaining or you take action. Your life. Your call.

 

[dpenabill]

I'm not inclined to be so demure. Perhaps too much south-of-the-border still flowing in my veins.

Franky I couldn't care what the other 5 billion are doing.

Frankly, particularly since you have not done things the right way, since you are the one looking for ways to evade the rules regarding Canadian PRs, to get away with your breach of the PR Residency Obligation, this says it all: "Franky I couldn't care what the other 5 billion are doing."

Some of us do. Bye.

 

[Leon]

Yes true...but it's not my fault that the Canadian economy didn't fair well and I could not find work during the time period I had my valid PR. Life happens...they need to take into account those things..particularly when Immigration Canada is pitching job forecasts showing available work and shortages of work force in areas that I was involved in.

Oh yes they do. Brits in particular have carte blanche. I know...I lived there but never got my citizenship but my Brit friends were able to go wherever they pleased. They may need to apply but the programs and relationships they have with various countries makes it much easier for them to move around. A Brit moving to Australia or NZ or Canada is far easier than for an American. Far easier.


Not true...even with NAFTA, I know first hand employers are VERY VERY reluctant to sponsor or get a work visa. If this wasn't the case, I'd be in Canada right now. The first thing Canadian companies ask me is am I legally able to work in Canada? 9/10 ten of them say they don't want to sponsor. Even with NAFTA. It should be easy...but it's not.

So you should get a pass on the rules because the economy was bad? Should everybody else who got PR at that time get a pass too? What about the people who actually immigrated and found jobs during that time? Shouldn't they get some reward for having managed that, a medal maybe? The point is, there are rules, you didn't follow them.

An employer does not need to sponsor you to get a NAFTA work permit. They just have to give you a letter saying they are offering you a job in a NAFTA profession. They can still fire you during your probation period if they don't like your work. I am sure if you told them that, they wouldn't be so reluctant. Not that you need it anyway because you are a PR so you don't need a work permit.

As for the Brits being able to move to Canada more easily than other nations, I am sure you will now give us a link to the CIC page for the immigration class that is for Brits only

 

[scylla]

As for the Brits being able to move to Canada more easily than other nations, I am sure you will now give us a link to the CIC page for the immigration class that is for Brits only

I laughed at this too. Anyone who thinks there's preference for Brits doesn't actually understand Canadian immigration rules.

Also gotta love the lack of personal accountability. There are simple rules that are quite generous. They have been place for a long time and haven't changed. You failed to follow them. Now it's apparently everyone's fault but your own. Entitlement is such an unattractive and childish characteristic. You created this situation all by yourself - own up.

 

[keesio]

Not true...even with NAFTA, I know first hand employers are VERY VERY reluctant to sponsor or get a work visa. If this wasn't the case, I'd be in Canada right now. The first thing Canadian companies ask me is am I legally able to work in Canada? 9/10 ten of them say they don't want to sponsor. Even with NAFTA. It should be easy...but it's not.

I first came to Canada on a work visa. My profession is covered on NAFTA. I interviewed for a job in Toronto. After the interview, they told me they wanted to hire me and have their lawyers get to work on my work visa. 3 weeks later I got my work visa. The process is not that difficult. But there is some overhead in additional costs for a lawyer (unless the company has a legal department in house which specializes in these things). So the issue is not if the process is easy or not. It is cost. and it really isn't that much when you think about the average annual salary of a profession covered under NAFTA.