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applied for new PR card inside Canada, but...

Tri-Cities

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2015
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Hi folks,

it's been a while since my last visit to the site.

So today I got an email from a friend and she asked me something I don't know the answer to.

She applied for a new PR card (renewal) but had to leave Canada before she got the card. She is checking the status online and it says "in process".
Now she told me that she wanted to wait until the status "decision made" shows up, book a flight and get back home. Her plan is to tell the officer that she applied for a new one and that she got message from CIC to pick up the card.

I told her that as far as I know she needs a travel doc since the rules changed recently. But that I wouldn't know and yes, I don't know how chances are that she'd be in trouble w/o a PR card and w/o the travel doc.

She replied that she thought that since she would have a case number and message (or print the status from the CIC website) to pick up the card she would be fine. But she sin't sure either.

I wrote back that I didn't have a PR card last year when I wanted to go back to Canada and that I crossed the border landwise. Back then the officer just told me to apply for a new card and wished me a nice day.
But again, the rules changed.

What do you guys think? If she prints the status, showing the case number to an officer, is that going to work for her? Or should I tell her to apply for a travel doc?

thanks for helping "us" out!

cheers, TC
 

Ponga

VIP Member
Oct 22, 2013
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The eTA requirement date has been pushed back until September of this year.

FYI, persons crossing at a land border don't even really need to have a valid PR Card.

It is a requirement of the commercial carrier (not CBSA) if travelling by air, bus, rail, sea.
 

Tri-Cities

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2015
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Well, she doesn't want to use the US to cross borders.

She wants to just take a flight straight to Canada.

Thoughts?

thanks, TC
 

zardoz

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If she is a PR the eTA is irrelevant anyway. If she is in possession of a valid, unexpired PR card, she can board a flight. If she doesn't have a valid, unexpired PR card, she WILL need to apply for a Travel Document to come back to Canada on commercial transportation. This assumes that she is not currently in possession of a visa-exempt passport.
 

Tri-Cities

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2015
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Hello :)

Her PR card is expired but she already applied for a new one. She is waiting for the decision, watching the status online, and she meets the RO's.
She is German, so I'm not sure about the visa-exemption.

Oh boy, she is a good example to not leave w/o a valid card.

Thanks, TC
 

alok4best

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Tri-Cities said:
Hello :)

Her PR card is expired but she already applied for a new one. She is waiting for the decision, watching the status online, and she meets the RO's.
She is German, so I'm not sure about the visa-exemption.

Oh boy, she is a good example to not leave w/o a valid card.

Thanks, TC
If she has German passport, then she can enter Canada based on that. But all this will change from September.
 

Rob_TO

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Tri-Cities said:
What do you guys think? If she prints the status, showing the case number to an officer, is that going to work for her? Or should I tell her to apply for a travel doc?
Sure that will work fine for a CBSA officer once you arrive in Canada. However it most definitely won't work for an airline. An airline will accept only a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document to allow a PR to board a flight. They will definitely not accept any print out of letter.

Since she's visa-exempt, she can instead try to board the airplane as a visitor to Canada using just her German passport (until Sept 29 only). In this case, she shouldn't mention at all to the airline she's a PR. If she doesn't feel comfortable presenting herself as a foreign national when in fact she's a PR, then she should apply for a PR Travel Document from her local visa office.
 

zardoz

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Tri-Cities said:
Hello :)

Her PR card is expired but she already applied for a new one. She is waiting for the decision, watching the status online, and she meets the RO's.
She is German, so I'm not sure about the visa-exemption.

Oh boy, she is a good example to not leave w/o a valid card.

Thanks, TC
The fact that she has applied for renewal will not assist in accessing commercial transportation. It's not relevant. She may be able to persuade the airline that she is a visa-exempt VISITOR to Canada on the basis of a German passport but if they think or suspect that she is a PR holder, she may be denied and have to obtain a PR Travel Document.
 

Tri-Cities

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2015
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Okay got it.

Though from my experience I was never asked by an airline if I was a visitor or a PR. Usually the border officer are the ones asking questions - which is just fine with me.

She doesn't want to stay longer than needed (outside of Canada) so she said she might book a two-way flight to avoid trouble with the airline. For the CBSA officer she plans to have all doc's on her, including the status of application. She says she thinks she'll be fine.

I told her to wait until the PR card is issued. Shouldn't take too long. I wouldn't wanna take a chance. But she wants to go home to Canada asap which I kind of understand.

cheers TC
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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A Decision Made on the PR card application means virtually nothing. A DM does not mean a PR card will be mailed to the PR's Canadian residential address, and does not even guarantee actual delivery of the PR card when the PR goes to the local office to pick it up.

And, in particular, the DM does not help at all in regards to being allowed to board a flight to Canada.

Otherwise, the most important factor is whether or not she is in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation as of the date she returns to Canada.

If in compliance with the PR RO, worst case scenario is some inconvenience in being allowed to board a flight to Canada.


If NOT in compliance with PR RO:

If not in compliance with the PR RO, the Decision Made on the PR card application is nonetheless NOT relevant, does not matter.

Thus, if not in compliance, a PR will be denied a PR Travel Document if one is needed. Despite a positive DM in PR card app.

If not in compliance with the PR RO, upon arrival at the PoE in Canada (assuming the PR is allowed to fly to Canada), the PR could be examined regarding the PR RO and if the officers determine the PR is not in compliance, they are then likely to issue a 44(1) Inadmissibility Report followed by a Removal Order. Again, despite a positive DM in the PR card app.

Overall, if not in compliance: the sooner the PR returns or attempts to return to Canada the better the PR's odds are for retaining PR status. Again, a positive DM on the PR card application will have virtually no impact. (In contrast, however, it seems quite likely that if a PR card application has been referred for Secondary Review, which is standard procedure if IRCC discerns the PR is abroad while the application is pending, the PR is flagged for additional examination upon next arrival at a PoE in Canada.)




Possible inconvenience boarding flight to Canada:

Again, the positive DM for PR card app does NOT help at all for purposes of being allowed to board a flight to Canada.

If the rule for PRs is being enforced for the particular individual seeking to board a flight to Canada, that requires the PR to present either a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document. Any alternative proffer of evidence as to current validity of PR status will not suffice; such evidence is for the visa office abroad to consider in deciding whether to issue a PR Travel Document.

Reminder and caution: Section 31(2)(b) states: "a person who is outside Canada and who does not present a status document indicating permanent resident status is presumed not to have permanent resident status." http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-8.html#h-20


Reminder: Visa-exempt or not, the current rule is that a PR needs to present a valid PR card or PR Travel Document to board a flight to Canada.
See admonition at top of IRCC webpage: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-pr.asp

As to some reports indicating PRs with visa-exempt passports may still be allowed to board flights to Canada without PR cards or PR TDs (during the eTA leniency period), obviously these do not guarantee the rule will not be enforced, or that any other PR will be allowed to board a flight just using a visa-exempt passport, and thus whether to attempt this is a personal decision to be made by the particular individual, at that individual's risk of course. In addition to the many vagaries in pre-boarding screening at foreign airports (see very recent post by keesio for example), all passengers are now screened for clearance from the CBSA's IAPI system before boarding. So how it will go for a particular PR on a particular occasion at this or that airport in the world can and is likely to vary considerably. Nonetheless, for a PR in compliance with the PR RO, worst case scenario is some inconvenience (absolute worst case is having to first obtain a PR TD before making the flight).

Past experience is no longer relevant given the recent implementation of the IAPI system, requiring advance clearance, being applied to all passengers.
 

Tri-Cities

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2015
237
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Well, I will forward this information. And maybe it's a good idea to use a flight to the US (two-way flight) and cross border. She doesn't like the thought but it seems to be an easier way.

Worked for me and since CIC changed the rules but set back the date for those changes to September she should be fine.

cheers TC
 

Tri-Cities

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2015
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...she replied that she meets the RO, as she didn't spend a lot of time outside of Canada.

She also sent me a link which says:

New entry requirement now in effect

Visa-exempt foreign nationals are expected to have an Electronic Travel Authorization (eTA) to fly to or transit through Canada. Exceptions include U.S. citizens, and travellers with a valid Canadian visa. Canadian citizens, including dual citizens, and Canadian permanent residents cannot apply for an eTA.

Note: Until September 29, 2016, travellers who do not have an eTA can board their flight, as long as they have appropriate travel documents, such as a valid passport. During this leniency period, border services officers can let travellers arriving without an eTA into the country, as long as they meet the other requirements to enter Canada. Find answers to your questions about the leniency period.


So now she says because she got a passport from a visa exempt country, and PR's cannot apply for an eTA, and the the new rules are in effect starting September, she believes she could board a one-way flight back to Canada.
She feels like she won't have issues with CBSA just the airline concerns her.

I don't know what to answer anymore, which I told her. I also told her that I was unsure how to handle the situation last November when I only had my passport, invalid PR Card and the COPR (I guess). Thats why I crossed by private vehicle (US - Canada border). And on top I booked a two-way flight instead of one-way.

*sigh*
why is she asking me for advise if she thinks she knows better anyways
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Given that there is no PR RO compliance issue, the situation is fairly simple, as I posted before:

If the rule for PRs is being enforced for the particular individual seeking to board a flight to Canada, that requires the PR to present either a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document.

If the rule for PRs is not enforced for the particular individual seeking to board a flight to Canada, a visa-exempt passport will suffice.

In my previous post I linked the webpage with the same rule you quote. That is the rule. (Admonition at top of IRCC webpage: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-pr.asp )

There are differing opinions about what the odds are the rule will or will not be enforced during the leniency period. Whatever one thinks the odds are, or why, there is no guarantee, however, no formal assurance that the rule will not be enforced during the eTA leniency period.

The sparsity of reports since March 15 (just three that I have seen), of PRs attempting to fly to Canada without a PR card, suggests to me that very few are electing to take a chance on the rule not being enforced. But in contrast there are some who express confidence the rule is not likely to be enforced.

In this case the risk is mere inconvenience. Worst case scenario, if she encounters enforcement of the rule, is having to obtain a PR Travel Document to make the flight. Or, she could go ahead and obtain a PR Travel Document just to be sure . . . if she travels after the leniency period, she will for sure need a PR Travel Document (or do the travel via the U.S. route).

By the way: PRs are Canadians. Canadians have a right of entry into Canada. All the PR has to do, once the PR reaches a PoE, is establish identity and status. Any valid passport plus an expired PR card or CoPR easily does that. Even though it would likely invoke probing questions and a severe admonition about carrying proper documents, even just a Canadian drivers license should suffice.

The problem, if there is one, is usually in physically getting to the PoE. Requirements for boarding planes are actually more strict for PRs than what is required at the PoE itself. In the meantime, the U.S. imposes its own somewhat strict requirements for travelers, so traveling via the U.S. is not always a convenient way to physically get to the border.



Another by the way; re visa-exempt visitors and return trip tickets:

The issue about having a return trip ticket has to do with appearing to legitimately plan to visit Canada.

For a PR pretending to be a visa-exempt Foreign National traveling to visit Canada, the return trip ticket just helps (allegedly, I doubt its relevance these days) to satisfy the airline the traveler is visiting Canada and entitled to board a flight by displaying a visa-exempt passport. Once this individual reaches the PoE, a return ticket is not going to mean anything.

But for an actual Foreign National (that is, not a PR) with a visa-exempt passport, upon arrival at the PoE in Canada the examining officers might be suspicious that a traveler without a return trip ticket might be planning to stay or work in Canada, and thus is not genuinely just visiting, and thus not admissible as a visitor.

Remember, all a visa-exempt passport means is that the individual has authorization to enter Canada without obtaining a visa in advance. It does not constitute actual permission to enter Canada.

At the PoE it does not matter so much whether it is in an airport, for those who just landed on a flight originating abroad, or at a PoE on the Canadian side of the border with the U.S. A traveler with a visa-exempt passport must present herself or himself to the border officer at the PIL for examination prior to entering Canada. Actual permission to enter is not guaranteed (for a Foreign National; PR is entitled to enter). And if a visa-exempt passenger gets off a plane, has no return ticket, and upon being asked questions is vague about how long she or he plans to be in Canada, odds are high the questions will get more probing. The answer "six months," is bound to make matters interesting, at which point what the traveler will be doing in Canada, where, why, and of course what funds the traveler has, are all questions which are likely to be asked. If the examining officer is not satisfied the traveler will not work or overstay or become a financial burden, the officer can outright deny entry; or the officer may allow the traveler to enter for a specific amount of time. (In the course of my life, before becoming a PR -- I am now a citizen -- I had been restricted to as few as two days in Canada (after landing in Montreal on a flight from Europe), and other times issued a Visitor's Record for various periods of time, with must leave by dates ranging from a few weeks, to a couple months, and once one for six months (while I had a PR application pending). But on more than a hundred other occasions I was simply waived into Canada and on those occasions I could legally remain in Canada for up to six months. I personally have experienced that how things go for dozens and dozens of times does not dictate how they will go the next time, even when all the relevant circumstances seem to be much the same.)

The six months is merely the maximum allowed stay when a FN is allowed to enter Canada and the duration of the stay is not otherwise specified by the border officer. Thus, for those casually waived into Canada, technically they can indeed stay six months (and among those hundred plus times I was causally waived into Canada, I pushed this envelope on several occasions, which on subsequent trips coming into Canada led, as I noted above, to being restricted to much shorter stays on a couple occasions).
 

Tri-Cities

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2015
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Me personally, I would book a two-way flight so the airline wouldn't ask. At the Poe I would show CBSA my passport, expired PR card and the CoPR. I would tell them that I applied for a new card. They're able to check the status (PR in the first place or not) anyways.

For me the real deal is to get to the Poe in Canada and therefor I would choose to book a flight with a return ticket. I wouldn't wait any longer, but go back asap.

But that's me and I wouldn't tell her that, I prefer to tell her to be careful and think about her options.
 

zardoz

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It's not the booking of the flight that's the problem. It's when you present for checkin. It's at that point that your travel documents are checked and could be rejected. Automated checkin might be less risky but it's still possible that it would refer you to a personal checkin anyway.