What do Canadian women think of flattery?

[danyalejandro]

Latinamerican 5-years immigrant here, brown-skinned, with an amazing wife that's out of my league.

Sometimes when a female friend changes her looks (cuts or tints her hair, etc.) I tend to do a casual "you look great" comment, sometimes literally out of formality / good-deed-of-the-day as I'm not really interested in the person in question.

As much as I try to not sound like a creep, I can feel the increase in tension around me when in a social circle, and when I do it in private I get back the indirect "yeah I'm going to show my BF" kind of message that makes me think the woman is wondering if I have second intentions.

After a few repeats of this, I'm starting to think men's flattery is uncalled for Canadian women (generalized to nordic countries) and I should just abstain. Immigrant Women from other countries don't seem to react this way. Maybe they're not used to it or something?

 

[scylla]

Latinamerican 5-years immigrant here, brown-skinned, with an amazing wife that's out of my league.

Sometimes when a female friend changes her looks (cuts or tints her hair, etc.) I tend to do a casual "you look great" comment, sometimes literally out of formality / good-deed-of-the-day as I'm not really interested in the person in question.

As much as I try to not sound like a creep, I can feel the increase in tension around me when in a social circle, and when I do it in private I get back the indirect "yeah I'm going to show my BF" kind of message that makes me think the woman is wondering if I have second intentions.

After a few repeats of this, I'm starting to think men's flattery is uncalled for Canadian women (generalized to nordic countries) and I should just abstain. Immigrant Women from other countries don't seem to react this way. Maybe they're not used to it or something?

I think the reactions you've gotten have already answered your question.

I would do some research on how the world is changing (this is not limited to Canada). If you want to compliment a woman, make it achievements based. We are done having our value primarily rooted in our looks. We are SO done with this. We are also SO done having to just politely smile and accept comments from men that make us uncomfortable and/or that we find offensive. So we are starting to call these behaviours out and say they are not OK. That's what's happening to you. You're being told your behaviour is not OK. The immigrant women you're referring to are probably too polite to say something. But my guess that what you're doing is making them just as unhappy and uncomfortable.

I'm sure what I'm saying will make no sense to you.

 

[YVR123]

I agree with scylla.
And may be you just directed that to the wrong person.
Some people pay attention to their look and put effort to it. So I think if you give compliment to them, they will like it. e.g. if they are "influencer on makeup/hair product...etc".
But for others, I never pay any attention to my look. (it's bad) And I care more about other archivements.
It's not "just Canadians"; It's individually who you talk to. Oh! btw. I am an immigrant too.

 

[danyalejandro]

Thanks for the explanations! Will modify that behavior then.

 

[GandiBaat]

I would do some research on how the world is changing (this is not limited to Canada). If you want to compliment a woman, make it achievements based. We are done having our value primarily rooted in our looks. We are SO done with this. We are also SO done having to just politely smile and accept comments from men that make us uncomfortable and/or that we find offensive. So we are starting to call these behaviours out and say they are not OK. That's what's happening to you. You're being told your behaviour is not OK. The immigrant women you're referring to are probably too polite to say something. But my guess that what you're doing is making them just as unhappy and uncomfortable.

*Deep Sigh* Only time I hate 21st century.

PS : Just to be clear, its not a comment on your post. Its a comment on our present situation as a whole.

 

[GandiBaat]

Thanks for the explanations! Will modify that behavior then.

I can feel for you sir. I surely can. Chivalry is dead! Don't hold door. Don't complement looks. Don't ever try helping carry heavy items. Just don't. Unless asked. If asked silently do that much. "Thank you!" "Welcome!" "Smile for exactly 0.5 seconds" and Done!

I am jealous of our grandfather's generation. They actually lived...... Without lawyers and woke crowd telling them how to move individual muscles.

 

[danyalejandro]

I can feel for you sir. I surely can. Chivalry is dead! Don't hold door. Don't complement looks. Don't ever try helping carry heavy items. Just don't. Unless asked. If asked silently do that much. "Thank you!" "Welcome!" "Smile for exactly 0.5 seconds" and Done!

I am jealous of our grandfather's generation. They actually lived...... Without lawyers and woke crowd telling them how to move individual muscles.

I think it's a very nordic rich-country way of thinking and I don't think it's a bad thing. I've had women from other countries actually comment on how they expected me to be more of a gentleman after I got used to Canadian culture and lost some habits, so I know some of them like being treated that way, mostly those from our own generation (30s-40s) while those younger or more exposed to the new progressive way of thinking are more reluctant to gracefully accept flattery and feel even offended by it, evidently. I'm grateful a couple of comments clearly illustrated that way of thinking and I think it makes sense, these are the values of the new generations and we should respect them.

 

[canuck78]

I can feel for you sir. I surely can. Chivalry is dead! Don't hold door. Don't complement looks. Don't ever try helping carry heavy items. Just don't. Unless asked. If asked silently do that much. "Thank you!" "Welcome!" "Smile for exactly 0.5 seconds" and Done!

I am jealous of our grandfather's generation. They actually lived...... Without lawyers and woke crowd telling them how to move individual muscles.

Nobody is saying don't hold the door or don't offer to help. The point is that both women and men can hold the door for each other and if something looks heavy men shouldn't insist that women can not handle carrying something that is clearly a man's work. Offer help and walk away if your help is politely declined. Think you have totally lost the whole point of this discussion if you are jealous of your grandfather's generation. Sure most women wouldn't say they are jealous of their grandmother's generation where what they were wearing, their weight and all their abilities could openly be discussed by men while intellectual abilities were often ignored or even discouraged. In many cases women were openly sexually harassed and touched inappropriately. Still happens today but thankfully less. Women from the baby boomer generation could dream of being nurses, flight attendants, secretaries or teachers before becoming mothers. Would a man appreciate people constantly commenting on their appearance versus abilities? Thankfully most people have realized that women are as capable as men and women are only capable of cooking, cleaning, don't need to wear make-up, wear outfits that are "feminine", etc.

Would suggest that OP say something like you're looking so happy these days versus commenting on someone's appearance unless you have a relationship with a woman where the both of you have similar interests like fashion and both comment on your fashion choices. Sure most women have had experiences where a man had commented on their shirt or sweater and it was clearly meant to compliment their curves and not the actual fashion.

 

[GandiBaat]

I think it's a very nordic rich-country way of thinking and I don't think it's a bad thing. I've had women from other countries actually comment on how they expected me to be more of a gentleman after I got used to Canadian culture and lost some habits, so I know some of them like being treated that way, mostly those from our own generation (30s-40s) while those younger or more exposed to the new progressive way of thinking are more reluctant to gracefully accept flattery and feel even offended by it, evidently. I'm grateful a couple of comments clearly illustrated that way of thinking and I think it makes sense, these are the values of the new generations and they should be respected.

Let me put it in this way, these gestures are more like fashion and you have to "wear" what is appropriate for the time and place. The current fashion in the Canada is that you keep things professional and always talk through your lawyers with each other or you will be sued or worse ... "cancelled". So be it. If I wore my grandfather's ornate ensemble made from black wool with gold embroidery, I will be atleast be thought as anachronistic, if not worse. So I wear business casuals to work, just like most of my co-workers. And I only talk about purely work related things to them and social interaction is limited to casual banal bromides. My compliments are HR approved (presented in neat power-point bullets) and vetted by corporate lawyers. It keeps me safe and prevents cancellation. Glorious progress achieved!

Nobody is saying don't hold the door or don't offer to help. The point is that both women and men can hold the door for each other and if something looks heavy men shouldn't insist that women can not handle carrying something that is clearly a man's work. Offer help and walk away if your help is politely declined. Think you have totally lost the whole point of this discussion if you are jealous of your grandfather's generation. Sure most women wouldn't say they are jealous of their grandmother's generation where what they were wearing, their weight and all their abilities could openly be discussed by men while intellectual abilities were often ignored or even discouraged. In many cases women were openly sexually harassed and touched inappropriately. Still happens today but thankfully less. Women from the baby boomer generation could dream of being nurses, flight attendants, secretaries or teachers before becoming mothers. Would a man appreciate people constantly commenting on their appearance versus abilities? Thankfully most people have realized that women are as capable as men and women are only capable of cooking, cleaning, don't need to wear make-up, wear outfits that are "feminine", etc.

Would suggest that OP say something like you're looking so happy these days versus commenting on someone's appearance unless you have a relationship with a woman where the both of you have similar interests like fashion and both comment on your fashion choices. Sure most women have had experiences where a man had commented on their shirt or sweater and it was clearly meant to compliment their curves and not the actual fashion.

I met an old couple the other day (actually it was an year back... time flies!). I opened and held the door for the lady. She smiled and her husband complimented me and said that these days folks have forgotten the common curtsey. I smiled back and we had a little chat over miscellaneous stuff including how my gold chain accentuated my looks on my dusky skin complexion. There was no sexual harassment, denial of opportunities to women, gender biasing or gender role definition or racism etc etc etc.

I guess we could have both emancipation and social freedom without constant fear of offending other party with our simple courtesy, gentleness and casual chat. We are more than capable of handling such social nuances and complexities.

But then lawyers will like to remind us of latest harassment laws and woke will like to cancel us at any opportunity they get. Funny thing is that we seek all those things (complements on looks, frank talk, appreciation from other gender etc) virtually via instagram etc. I guess we are entering or have entered in fast food era of social interactions. More proof? It is almost impossible to have this exact discussion with casual acquaintances in real life but here I am, talking exactly the same thing to a perfect stranger, only online.

 

[canuck78]

Let me put it in this way, these gestures are more like fashion and you have to "wear" what is appropriate for the time and place. The current fashion in the Canada is that you keep things professional and always talk through your lawyers with each other or you will be sued or worse ... "cancelled". So be it. If I wore my grandfather's ornate ensemble made from black wool with gold embroidery, I will be atleast be thought as anachronistic, if not worse. So I wear business casuals to work, just like most of my co-workers. And I only talk about purely work related things to them and social interaction is limited to casual banal bromides. My compliments are HR approved (presented in neat power-point bullets) and vetted by corporate lawyers. It keeps me safe and prevents cancellation. Glorious progress achieved!


I met an old couple the other day (actually it was an year back... time flies!). I opened and held the door for the lady. She smiled and her husband complimented me and said that these days folks have forgotten the common curtsey. I smiled back and we had a little chat over miscellaneous stuff including how my gold chain accentuated my looks on my dusky skin complexion. There was no sexual harassment, denial of opportunities to women, gender biasing or gender role definition or racism etc etc etc.

I guess we could have both emancipation and social freedom without constant fear of offending other party with our simple courtesy, gentleness and casual chat. We are more than capable of handling such social nuances and complexities.

But then lawyers will like to remind us of latest harassment laws and woke will like to cancel us at any opportunity they get. Funny thing is that we seek all those things (complements on looks, frank talk, appreciation from other gender etc) virtually via instagram etc. I guess we are entering or have entered in fast food era of social interactions. More proof? It is almost impossible to have this exact discussion with casual acquaintances in real life but here I am, talking exactly the same thing to a perfect stranger, only online.

As a woman I hold the door open for both men and women that's just common courtesy. Has nothing to do with the original question. Women (and likely men) were offended by many things in previous generations but were unable to voice their opinion. Let's stop exaggerating. People don't talk through lawyers in Canada but unless it is your family or close you shouldn't be commenting on people's bodies or looks. You can have great relationships with people without commenting about their looks. Would add that I appreciate that I live in a country where there are repercussions if you are sexually harassed at work, at home or out in public. Women especially are very lucky to live in a country like Canada. Would add that many people are not soliciting any form of compliment on instagram. Even if you are many people have extremely inappropriate responses. If women post a picture online in a bikini they receive sexual propositions and d*ck pics so there is a need for many to be reminded of harassment laws.

In all countries, except certain very creative industries, it would be a sign of disrespect if you wore something completely different than other employees to work. Even a few decades ago if men didn't wear a suit to a white collar job it would have been seen as a lack of respect for your employer and other colleagues. Nothing has changed. Would add that talking about how your gold chain accentuates your complexion to strangers is extremely strange small talk to people you have just met while opening a door for them.

 

[GandiBaat]

As a woman I hold the door open for both men and women that's just common courtesy.

Believe me, I have seen all sorts of reaction to this very simple gesture. From smiles (like from that old couple) to neutral (most of my coworkers) to outright outrage (from few oddballs at my workplace). The issue is, norms are set to accommodate "acceptable" extremes. Somewhere in past 2 or 3 decades, IMHO, "stop patronizing!" has become a real acceptable --though a bit extreme-- response to many simple gestures and pleasantries.

Has nothing to do with the original question.

In a way it is. When you are not even sure that even a very very mundane gesture like holding door can possibly cause such a reaction, you need to be way more guarded to any other pleasantry.

Women (and likely men) were offended by many things in previous generations but were unable to voice their opinion. Let's stop exaggerating.

Try raising voice against any of SJW/Woke ideas in a workplace. You will get cancelled way fast. Quite a few college professors found it to their surprise. The things that are socially acceptable to be voiced have changed indeed. Some like gender roles and sexual harassment have become acceptable to be discussed in a civil setting -- and thats a great thing. Others like body image or health have become taboo.

People don't talk through lawyers in Canada but unless it is your family or close you shouldn't be commenting on people's bodies or looks. You can have great relationships with people without commenting about their looks.

Well, just saying "you look fabulous" earns scorn as our dear OP discovered. It was not always like this. I joined Intel in 2005/06 and they had a standardized anti-harassment training course. I am quoting verbatim one example from back then:
"A woman manager tells her sub-ordinate that his blue coat brings out blue color of his eyes pretty well. Harassment or not?" The answer was Not.
I think it would have changed by now.

Would add that I appreciate that I live in a country where there are repercussions if you are sexually harassed at work, at home or out in public. Women especially are very lucky to live in a country like Canada.

I concur. No objections at all. Totally agree.

Would add that many people are not soliciting any form of compliment on instagram.

I am sorry, I should have been clearer. I was alluding to feeling of satisfaction that many people get when they see "likes" on their pic going up. Don't know about you, but both my wife and many of her friends (male and female) have talked about number of likes they got for their pics. It was this feedback I was commenting on. Since it is not socially acceptable to even say pleasantries about someone's new look in person, people have taken it to the web -- in form of "like" counts.

Even if you are many people have extremely inappropriate responses. If women post a picture online in a bikini they receive sexual propositions and d*ck pics so there is a need for many to be reminded of harassment laws.

Well, web affords apparent anonymity. It brings worst out of many folks. This is why I like real world interactions more. It makes people behave. If they don't, repercussions are immediate.

In all countries, except certain very creative industries, it would be a sign of disrespect if you wore something completely different than other employees to work. Even a few decades ago if men didn't wear a suit to a white collar job it would have been seen as a lack of respect for your employer and other colleagues. Nothing has changed.

100% agreed!

Would add that talking about how your gold chain accentuates your complexion to strangers is extremely strange small talk to people you have just met while opening a door for them.

I thought it was absolutely normal. When I grew up, this is how my parents and their peers interacted. Also refer to that Intel example I wrote above.

 

[Copingwithlife]

I’m a guy and I ALWAYS hold open the door I’m going thru if someone is following behind me, the elevator door if someone is running to it , obviously trying to catch it . Why would I do that ? Because as my mother always reminded us growing up “ Please show people that you weren’t raised by a pack of wolves “ However saying that , I never make small talk with the people I do that too. I show common courtesy, end of story .
Btw, the gold chain thing , that’s weird .
And I’ve been raised in extremely small Prairie towns, to mid size cities , to large cities .

 

[scylla]

I think it's a very nordic rich-country way of thinking and I don't think it's a bad thing. I've had women from other countries actually comment on how they expected me to be more of a gentleman after I got used to Canadian culture and lost some habits, so I know some of them like being treated that way, mostly those from our own generation (30s-40s) while those younger or more exposed to the new progressive way of thinking are more reluctant to gracefully accept flattery and feel even offended by it, evidently. I'm grateful a couple of comments clearly illustrated that way of thinking and I think it makes sense, these are the values of the new generations and we should respect them.

I'm in the upper end of the demographic you say should be accepting. I'm not accepting. I'm so glad the world is changing.

You're victim blaming by saying that women are "reluctant to gracefully accept flattery". That says the problem is them - not your comments. It invalidates what they are feeling and places blame on them. This statement alone is honestly offensive and part of the problem. We are not "reluctant to gracefully accept flattery", we are done putting up with rude and offensive comments.

It takes a woman to understand what all of this feels like and why these changes are so important for us. This is not about holding open doors. I am fine if someone holds a door open for me. Thinking this is about holding open doors is very sadly missing the entire point and minimizing the importance of these changes.

 

[fr72]

I agree most responses to OP here. It's the 21st century, women must be treated with respect, regardless of their immigration status or national origin.

 

[danyalejandro]

You're victim blaming by saying that women are "reluctant to gracefully accept flattery". That says the problem is them - not your comments. It invalidates what they are feeling and places blame on them. This statement alone is honestly offensive and part of the problem. We are not "reluctant to gracefully accept flattery", we are done putting up with rude and offensive comments.

I made this post with a genuine interest in learning and improving and was met with aggressiveness, so I'm sorry to be at the limit of the empathy and gratefulness I can feel for those who dared to answer this post. Both responses are full of assumptions on who I am and what I know, which painted the picture of the stereotype that even having the thought of being nice to someone can put me into, and that was precisely what I wanted to understand. I've had honest conversations with highly educated women who both think and act on equal grounds as men and enjoy the little gestures of gentlemanship. I've never been rude or offensive to anyone by literally saying "your haircut looks great" and moving on to other things in my day.

I agree most responses to OP here. It's the 21st century, women must be treated with respect, regardless of their immigration status or national origin.

Again, you're assuming I make disrespectful comments when I'm actually the opposite kind of person, and I have discussed similar topics with women face-to-face and never met the kind of shaming that I get in this post (which is informative in itself), but with kindness instead.