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**Very IMP PR QUESTION**

Ordinary

Hero Member
Feb 18, 2015
336
5
Guys Help needed with below query?

I landed as PR in Sept 2015 stayed for 3 days and then left Canada and never went back.Meanwhile my husband stayed in Canada and got his citizenship and staying as a Canadian citizen with us in India since Jan 2020.

Now Can I apply for PR travel document as I am fulfilling criteria for PR by staying with Canadian citizen outside Canada for 2 years out of last 5 years?
I am worried about 5 year time period from Sept 2015 to Jan 2020 in which i didnt fulfil residency obligation.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
92,916
20,531
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Guys Help needed with below query?

I landed as PR in Sept 2015 stayed for 3 days and then left Canada and never went back.Meanwhile my husband stayed in Canada and got his citizenship and staying as a Canadian citizen with us in India since Jan 2020.

Now Can I apply for PR travel document as I am fulfilling criteria for PR by staying with Canadian citizen outside Canada for 2 years out of last 5 years?
I am worried about 5 year time period from Sept 2015 to Jan 2020 in which i didnt fulfil residency obligation.
There isn't a clear answer to this question. You can try.

IRCC will sometimes apply the "who followed whom" rule in these cases. To be sure you can count the time you spent outside of Canada towards PR, the primary reason should be that the Canadian citizen (your husband) relocated outside of Canada (e.g. for work purposes) and you then followed him. However in your case that's not what happened. You remained outside of Canada on your own and then your husband followed you and eventually moved out of Canada. So the short answer is that you can certain try to apply for the PRTD. Make sure you include evidence that your husband has been cohabitating with you outside of Canada for 3 years. It's entirely possible it make be approved. If IRCC decides to apply the "who followed whom" rule and refuses the PRTD (and you lose PR status), your husband can always sponsor you for PR.
 

Ordinary

Hero Member
Feb 18, 2015
336
5
There isn't a clear answer to this question. You can try.

IRCC will sometimes apply the "who followed whom" rule in these cases. To be sure you can count the time you spent outside of Canada towards PR, the primary reason should be that the Canadian citizen (your husband) relocated outside of Canada (e.g. for work purposes) and you then followed him. However in your case that's not what happened. You remained outside of Canada on your own and then your husband followed you and eventually moved out of Canada. So the short answer is that you can certain try to apply for the PRTD. Make sure you include evidence that your husband has been cohabitating with you outside of Canada for 3 years. It's entirely possible it make be approved. If IRCC decides to apply the "who followed whom" rule and refuses the PRTD (and you lose PR status), your husband can always sponsor you for PR.
Thanks scylla for quick response. You mentioning 3 years of staying together because it will make case stronger right ? (even though 2 years satisfies PR requirement )
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
92,916
20,531
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Thanks scylla for quick response. You mentioning 3 years of staying together because it will make case stronger right ? (even though 2 years satisfies PR requirement )
Sorry, that was an error. It only needs to be 2 years.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,282
3,041
I am worried about 5 year time period from Sept 2015 to Jan 2020 in which i didnt fulfil residency obligation.
The time period that really matters is the five year period preceding the date the PR TD application is made. So, if you apply for a PR TD March 21, 2023, the five year period that really matters is March 20, 2018 to March 20, 2023.

For a PR who has spent zero days in Canada during the relevant five years, that will of course invite elevated scrutiny, a closer look. Such a PR will need to either establish they are entitled to an exception, allowing them credit for days abroad adding up to at least 730 days during this five year period, or they have sufficient H&C reasons to justify relief from the failure to comply with the Residency Obligation.

If a PR is determined to have credit toward the Residency Obligation adding up to at least 730 days (credit during the relevant five year period), it does not matter how many days they were in Canada, or not in Canada, in the past. Thus, a PR who meets the RO based on days in the last five years is in compliance with the RO and it would not matter, not at all, that they had been in Canada zero days for a full five year period of time in the past.

I landed as PR in Sept 2015 stayed for 3 days and then left Canada and never went back.Meanwhile my husband stayed in Canada and got his citizenship and staying as a Canadian citizen with us in India since Jan 2020.

Now Can I apply for PR travel document as I am fulfilling criteria for PR by staying with Canadian citizen outside Canada for 2 years out of last 5 years?
I am worried about 5 year time period from Sept 2015 to Jan 2020 in which i didnt fulfil residency obligation.
For a PR who has been outside Canada more than 1095 days during the relevant five year period of time, on its face they appear to be in breach of the Residency Obligation. This is especially true if the PR has spent zero days in Canada during the relevant five year period (the most recent five years).

However, as your query references, there is an exception which allows credit for time outside Canada for PRs living with their Canadian citizen spouse. This is the credit for days abroad "accompanying" a citizen spouse exception. PRs will usually be allowed this credit for days they are "ordinarily residing" with their Canadian citizen spouse.

In some circumstances an IRCC office outside Canada processing a PR TD application might assess eligibility for the accompanying-citizen-spouse credit more strictly, focusing on whether the PR was accompanying the citizen spouse, not just residing with them. Among the cases in which we see this more strict approach are those where the PR never stayed long in Canada, let alone settled here. It is in this context that the time period 2015 to 2020 might become relevant. But this is probably the ONLY context in which the 2015 to 2020 time period is relevant, is looked at.

As @scylla observed, it is NOT clear, and we cannot reliably say, whether the visa office will approach your case and routinely allow RO credit for days you were ordinarily residing with your citizen spouse, or will examine and consider whether you were "accompanying" your spouse abroad.

The latter is unusual but, as noted, cases where the PR never settled in Canada are among those where we have seen the who-accompanied-whom question become an issue.

Thing is, you will need to provide address history for your spouse for five years in order to qualify for the accompanying citizen spouse credit. Which, obviously, is likely to be compared to your address history. So, for a March 21, 2023 PR TD application, as noted the five year period that is examined is March 20, 2018 to March 20, 2023. Will a difference in address in 2018 to 2020 make a difference? Could that trigger the more strict approach? It might since on its face it will show you living abroad and then your spouse later more or less joining you abroad. That is, on its face it does not appear you accompanied your spouse in going abroad.

Again, as @scylla noted, "There isn't a clear answer to this question."

But if the visa office does take a closer look, looking at whether you accompanied your spouse abroad, that is when it may look at and consider your history going back before the last five years. How this might impact you is very difficult to forecast. We only know they can and sometimes will take note that you have never lived in Canada and consider that in the process of determining whether you will be allowed the accompanying a citizen spouse credit toward RO.

A Request: If you make a PR TD application, PLEASE come back and report how it goes. That would be much appreciated. A big part of why we cannot offer a more definite (or clear) answer to your query is that we know this can go both ways, but the reporting from people like you has been sparse and sporadic. More information from you could help clarify things better for others. (What happens to you will not indicate for sure what will happen to someone else in a similar situation, but the more reporting there is, the easier it will be to identify trends in addition to possible outcomes.)

A Reminder: For a PR married to a Canadian citizen, even in the worst case scenario in which the PR TD application is denied and the PR loses status, if and when the couple are prepared to move to Canada to stay the citizen spouse can sponsor the former PR for permanent residence status again.
 
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Ordinary

Hero Member
Feb 18, 2015
336
5
The time period that really matters is the five year period preceding the date the PR TD application is made. So, if you apply for a PR TD March 21, 2023, the five year period that really matters is March 20, 2018 to March 20, 2023.

For a PR who has spent zero days in Canada during the relevant five years, that will of course invite elevated scrutiny, a closer look. Such a PR will need to either establish they are entitled to an exception, allowing them credit for days abroad adding up to at least 730 days during this five year period, or they have sufficient H&C reasons to justify relief from the failure to comply with the Residency Obligation.

If a PR is determined to have credit toward the Residency Obligation adding up to at least 730 days (credit during the relevant five year period), it does not matter how many days they were in Canada, or not in Canada, in the past. Thus, a PR who meets the RO based on days in the last five years is in compliance with the RO and it would not matter, not at all, that they had been in Canada zero days for a full five year period of time in the past.



For a PR who has been outside Canada more than 1095 days during the relevant five year period of time, on its face they appear to be in breach of the Residency Obligation. This is especially true if the PR has spent zero days in Canada during the relevant five year period (the most recent five years).

However, as your query references, there is an exception which allows credit for time outside Canada for PRs living with their Canadian citizen spouse. This is the credit for days abroad "accompanying" a citizen spouse exception. PRs will usually be allowed this credit for days they are "ordinarily residing" with their Canadian citizen spouse.

In some circumstances an IRCC office outside Canada processing a PR TD application might assess eligibility for the accompanying-citizen-spouse credit more strictly, focusing on whether the PR was accompanying the citizen spouse, not just residing with them. Among the cases in which we see this more strict approach are those where the PR never stayed long in Canada, let alone settled here. It is in this context that the time period 2015 to 2020 might become relevant. But this is probably the ONLY context in which the 2015 to 2020 time period is relevant, is looked at.

As @scylla observed, it is NOT clear, and we cannot reliably say, whether the visa office will approach your case and routinely allow RO credit for days you were ordinarily residing with your citizen spouse, or will examine and consider whether you were "accompanying" your spouse abroad.

The latter is unusual but, as noted, cases where the PR never settled in Canada are among those where we have seen the who-accompanied-whom question become an issue.

Thing is, you will need to provide address history for your spouse for five years in order to qualify for the accompanying citizen spouse credit. Which, obviously, is likely to be compared to your address history. So, for a March 21, 2023 PR TD application, as noted the five year period that is examined is March 20, 2018 to March 20, 2023. Will a difference in address in 2018 to 2020 make a difference? Could that trigger the more strict approach? It might since on its face it will show you living abroad and then your spouse later more or less joining you abroad. That is, on its face it does not appear you accompanied your spouse in going abroad.

Again, as @scylla noted, "There isn't a clear answer to this question."

But if the visa office does take a closer look, looking at whether you accompanied your spouse abroad, that is when it may look at and consider your history going back before the last five years. How this might impact you is very difficult to forecast. We only know they can and sometimes will take note that you have never lived in Canada and consider that in the process of determining whether you will be allowed the accompanying a citizen spouse credit toward RO.

A Request: If you make a PR TD application, PLEASE come back and report how it goes. That would be much appreciated. A big part of why we cannot offer a more definite (or clear) answer to your query is that we know this can go both ways, but the reporting from people like you has been sparse and sporadic. More information from you could help clarify things better for others. (What happens to you will not indicate for sure what will happen to someone else in a similar situation, but the more reporting there is, the easier it will be to identify trends in addition to possible outcomes.)

A Reminder: For a PR married to a Canadian citizen, even in the worst case scenario in which the PR TD application is denied and the PR loses status, if and when the couple are prepared to move to Canada to stay the citizen spouse can sponsor the former PR for permanent residence status again.
Thanks for detailed reply. I will share how my application goes whenever I get result.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,969
12,768
Would also specify if you are trying to visit Canada or planning on returning to live in Canada permanently and provide proof of either scenario. That may impact the application. Agree With the others that it is impossible to say what will happen but time accompanying a spouse was intended to be after both parties have spent time living in Canada and then moved abroad and primarily moved abroad due to the Canadian citizen. Also fairly unusual for married couples to spend 5 years not living together. If there is an H&C reason you didn’t live in Canada, like having to care for a sick parent for example, I would highlight this and provide proof.